2008-05-06, 08:05 | Link #1221 |
He Who Smites Shippers
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 36
|
You guys are taking this way too seriously. Can't we just say "They're faster than normal humans" and leave the details to personal interpretation?
I'm all for the idea that the Aces fly at about fighter jet speeds as a general baseline figure, with modifications for things like Sonic Form and Flash Move. TK will probably say they're closer to helicopter speeds and ark will probably say something even slower than that based on "stadia ranging" and all this "judging by the animation techniques" bullshit--which I do my level best to ignore--but all the same, they're really fast by human standards no matter how you look at it. Can't we just agree to disagree and make our own judgments based on personal interpretation?
__________________
|
2008-05-06, 10:36 | Link #1222 | ||||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
Quote:
First, the difference b/w your logic and mine is that mine is an Analytic Logic that produces results. Yours is not. Your Laws of Anime do not "explain" scenes - they are just an assortment of excuses to discard scenes (or parts of scenes) you don't like. Anyway, I find it of utter sophistry that after you brightly admit that getting your desired version involves shafting the majority of the combat evidence (and that we should do it anyway), you turn around and complain that I'm a discarder. And Wild Goose calls me unconstructive... Quote:
However, we want to do more. We want to write FanFic using those characters (in combat at that). We want to analyze. We want to know how fast Nanoverse rounds are. How high they can fly and what they can defend against. And that's when we, for objectiveness, decide to evaluate it as it was real. For example, you can say that you cannot determine the speed of Nanoverse combat. But you don't want that. So... Now let's look at your pile of VTL breaking evidence Spoiler for Bullet Time Scene Collection:
Quote:
Further, your strategy for "breaking" VL tells me that you don't understand the nature of VL as derived from SoD's principles. To put it in perspective you might understand, it is roughly equivalent to me busting Laws of Animation (Time Accel and Decel) by citing the many, many minutes of Nanoha (supplemented by other anime) in which there's no reason to believe any time accel or decel happened. I'll undoubtedly be able to cite many more examples (I can pick one for almost every minute of Nanoha), but that's of no import. Same here. Now for the rest of your post... Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Solution candidates that don't require any time manipulation. 1) It was indeed 1x time there, and they were using Flash Move equivs. Possible because the times of the lines glowing are very small. Flash Move was being used in a start / stop fashion. But since you didn't bite this theory: Solution candidates involving time manipulation 2) The nice sparkling sound is related to the healing field, which is somehow linked to Nanoha (for all we know, Nanoha was powering it - which does explain why the field just disappears instead of breaking as Nanoha preps for SB+). As Nanoha made the decision to save her buddies, her Linker Core unconsciously changed its power setting (use the screencut for transition) and the acoustics of the field changed. After all, the sounds of magical fields is a very unknown science, unlike voices. Here's a boost for what it is worth: If you look closely at the sparkles, there were clearly more of them (per unit area) after the scene cut! This suggests a change in the field conditions, which may explain the change in the realtime acoustics. Quote:
You are correct that VTL in fact affects all Sound as well. The difference is that most sounds can take a higher manipulation without sounding implausible. Voice can take almost no manipulation at all (say 10-20% pushing it, which does not help anything). Take your typical slowdown. In the slowed (say 1/3rd speed) phase, we hear a 20Hz explosion. That means the real explosion is 60Hz. Can we confidently say it can't be a 60Hz explosion? Probably not, especially if we hadn't heard the explosion at its original speed. (Of course, explosions aren't one freq, but you get the point.) But a normal voice changing to 3 times its frequency? Well... it won't survive a change of 20%! Speech adds even more difficulties, because it takes time to pronounce phonemes. Thus, as a generalized rule, the strictness of the T-Lock is Speech > Voice (wordless shouts) > Sounds > Silence. Of course, if the sounds are Alternate Timing Signals (such as the good old Heartbeat or Tick Tock), then you follow their timing. By the way, if you complain about the Sound Lock, you basically can't use any time manipulation (except for Double / Triple Takes) at all. So that kills you as well - and no, the "Laws of Animation" is not an explanation. Quote:
Quote:
Note also that you (and others) can try to hang me on my own petards. The fact that you can even try to do this is due to a recognition that the scientific gameboard has fair rules that apply to all, always. Your gameboard, on the other hand, is a mishmash of things that are misnamed Laws. You see, a Law is something that holds true all of the time, or at least almost all. An example of a real "Law of Anime" is that humans are not drawn realistically. However, your laws are really Exceptions, so they basically apply only when you want them to. Further, as I said, there is a nice ending to this story, and you aren't taking it. Quote:
Quote:
By the way, there is a solution to both allow uber high speed fights with huge time decelerations and nice chats. They can just do all their conversations over the common telepathic net. They are not doing this. The conclusion is clear. Quote:
Of course, even one case is better than nothing and may be satisfactory, as long as the opposition has no counterevidence. Finally, even if I did do what you said, it does not free yourself from my objection, so perhaps you should deal with the essence of the problem. Quote:
If you really need help in understanding the theoretical basis of my assertion, please tell me. By the way, I've previously stated the importance of VTL, so that's hardly a new principle for you. Quote:
Also, this attitude only lasts you until you get into the OC thread. If the Aces fly at about fighter jet speeds, than a mage rank of AAA-S to you corresponds to that speed range. Let's just go with that: Scenario 1: You create a squadron. To ensure its easy admission, you make sure it only has one AAA. It looks good and it was almost approved. Except you let slip that the AAA has jet fighter speeds. A h3xxbuster homes in and tells you Jet Fighter = SS+ = No Go. Scenario 2: Someone borrows your character and you agree. He looks at the technotactical data stating your character is a AAA flying mage and plans his battle with your character accordingly. Your chara gets brought down by a propeller fighter. According to you, your character should just outrun the propfighter. These are crude examples, but when you remember you probably differ from Tk on matters like weapons ranges, survivability, etc, the net result is that what you thought is AAA is completely different from his, and this will cause problems. Now, how would both sides justify themselves to each other. An unhappy compromise? Tyranny of the Majority? Or a reasoned analysis of what canon really says about the issue? Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-05-06 at 11:13. Reason: OK, so it wasn't always... |
||||||||||||||||
2008-05-06, 11:32 | Link #1223 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gaf's Room
|
Quote:
However I'm not sure why the knowledge of how things like how fast a round in Nanoha can travel will aid in writing good fanfiction or affect the reader's experience of it.
__________________
|
|
2008-05-06, 20:05 | Link #1224 |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
|
This is part of the reason when I write mage battles they tend to be melee and up close, because then I don't have to worry about round velocities or details like that.
And I tend to focus more on charecter interactions and wordplay. @ark: In this case, from both your points of view, both you and Keroko are equally unconstructive to each other. Think about that a bit, Math Professor.
__________________
|
2008-05-11, 10:26 | Link #1225 |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
|
I'm probably going to regret this in the morning. However I am tired, very tired. Work as a Customer Service Rep for Domino's is draining, especially on weekends - and tonight we got hit with so many orders almost all our stores got backlogged. And you can't exactly backlog breaker pizzas.
Shift started at 4 pm, ended at 10 pm officially, hung back till 10.30 to take care of some overtime shit and annoyed and grumbling customers, and bitchy customer bitches. All while showing great enthusiasm and shit which will hopefully help me get an in for the shift leader slot when a new slot opens in about 3 months time. Was on the phone from 5.20 until 10.15 nonstop. Anyways, question as follows: Episode 5, StrikerS (or whatever episode it was where the Forwards first deployed onto that train - do any of you really think that at this moment in time I'm going to give a fuck and wiki it), the Forwards and Nanoha do an air drop from the helo. Now, consider. The helo has to be very high up. Ark can probably whip out his holy stadias and calculate the distance for us. Now here's a question: None of the Forwards can fly. Yet when they land on the train, they do so nonchalontly, like it was no big deal. So, since this is apparently Physics Girl Nanoha, how the hell did they avoid that given that such a landing should have ended up in them going splat? Also, any offence anybody wants to take in this post, that's your own problem. Much of my patience and tact has been rubbed away in the last few weeks and I'm rather annoyed, and am right now going Fuck This and just dropping this question into magitech to necro it and give ark and kero something else to argue about.
__________________
|
2008-05-11, 10:32 | Link #1226 |
He Who Smites Shippers
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 36
|
When in doubt, blame the barrier jacket. I'm no physics major, but a drop from several stories doesn't seem like it would have as much kinetic energy as, say, getting smashed through several floors of a building, so the jacket would probably take the brunt of the impact.
__________________
|
2008-05-11, 10:36 | Link #1227 |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
|
Agreed on the 'blame the Barrier Jacket' part, but then, that's where the majority of our debates have been about anyway.
Another interesting thing to note is that to be punched trough several walls, one has to punch you, which means that Signum hit Fate with enough power to knock her through five layers of reinforced concrete, which is pretty physics defying on its own. But then, I am on the 'physics don't matter' camp, so I just say 'Physical Enhancement Magic' and be done with it. |
2008-05-11, 10:46 | Link #1229 |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
|
I remember a scene from the Final Fantasy movie where the comandos shot a green blob towards the ground which gave them a soft landing, perhaps a magic equivelant of that? An invisible 'field' which gives them a soft landing?
|
2008-05-11, 10:57 | Link #1231 |
~Night of Gales~
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Intelligent Devices has been known to auto-process certain spells and magical functions. The Forwards were shown to have some form of softening effect as they landed on the train, so most likely they were slowed down via a parachuting effect during the transformation, and then have their landing softened once the dropping speed was reasonable. That wasn't really strange.
If anything, the HAMO Jump build-up could've been better, but between wasting time looking more militaristic and transformation scenes, we know what gets priority in Magical Girl shows.
__________________
|
2008-05-11, 13:19 | Link #1232 |
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
|
Since Erio was supposed to be in danger when he fell off the train proper I have to go with 'cushioning' rather than 'parachute.' Plus it fits with the visual evidence of Yuuno's S1 Ep 4 cushioning barriers and Chrono's sudden recovery at the end of his fall after Masked Guy kicked him in A's.
__________________
|
2008-05-11, 15:55 | Link #1233 | |
He Who Smites Shippers
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 36
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2008-05-11, 16:28 | Link #1234 |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
|
It would explain why everyone was so amazingly calm and did nothing, something which I might add was often complained about. If both Erio and Caro were safe because of whatever it was that had softened their landing, then that would explain their ease.
|
2008-05-11, 19:23 | Link #1235 |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
|
Makes sense in an asian way of thinking. If his flight is busted thanks to the AMF but he'll be alright and have that cushioning once he falls out of AMF range, tthere's nothing to worry about.
This might be an explanation for Chrono coming to a stop after being dropkicked in Ep 4 of A's, though since he could fly, the way the scene was setup seemed to be that he manually stopped himself with judicious application of magical thrust.
__________________
|
2008-05-12, 06:05 | Link #1236 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
An excuse to expand my webpage again
Quote:
Link. At this rate, I'll actually translate all the terms in 3 years or so... Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-05-12 at 06:20. Reason: Added Q-ice link |
||||
2008-05-12, 09:48 | Link #1238 | |||||
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
|
Quote:
It probably doesn't have anything to do with it, but I'm curious. Quote:
Quote:
*cough* anyway, off-topic rambling aside, you have to remember that Cort and I are in the camp that say that the Barrier Jackets protect against high-impacts, which is pretty physics defying. We just don't see the point in following every bit of the Laws of Physics (most of which we don't even know about, much less how they work) in a show that blatantly breaks them on a regular basis. The explanations don't have to be scientifically correct. If the explanation is cool, it'll do for us. Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||
2008-05-12, 10:08 | Link #1239 | |
He Who Smites Shippers
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 36
|
Quote:
See also: Rule of Cool. The way I see it, the protection afforded by a barrier jacket varies depending on what the wearer wants out of his armor. Some guys prefer protection against mass-based weaponry, and modify their protective fields to be able to shrug off high-impact kinetic shocks, stop bullets, and essentially turn their wearers into walking tanks, but at the expense of zero protection against magic damage. With guns being virtually extinct and beamspam and ranged magic techniques being the order of the day in the TSAB, these have fallen out of use in favor of much more balanced protection, which is what most of the CCs use. This, essentially, is the difference between barrier jackets and knight armor; knight armor is almost universally designed to withstand physical attacks more than barrier jackets are, while barrier jackets are tuned to provide protection against magical energy. Then there's the knight's garb which the Wolkenritter wear, giving them what is probably a balanced mixture of physical and magical defense as well as allowing them to move faster than their armor-plated cousins.
__________________
|
|
2008-05-12, 12:28 | Link #1240 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
Quote:
At the rate I'm translating, you'll learn Japanese and challenge my translations by the time I'm done Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'm sure lots of us will have cheered had Erio fallen to his death anyway (not me, but I know there are some people who think the Lightning team are better off not existing. |
||||
|
|