[MANGA] what went wrong in bleach?

[WhiteWings]

Soul Society ain't heaven in any form. I wonder if one had to be non-Christian (or hindu, or Jewish, or Muslim, or whatever) to go to Soul Society. I know it's a pointless point but still... I mean for a time I fantasized Soul Society as a regional station for the Japanese islands or something. With different versions for different locales and people's religious beliefs that would remain seperate until the end of the universe or something.

Well, heaven is probably a different place and its certainly not Soul Society.

I just like to let my mind wander from time to time....

[Placid_Thunder_Cloud]

If Ishin is a shinigami... and all shinigami's are spirits... did he reproduce using a gigai?

[tacobueno]

6 months of plotkai's and logic jumps are counter acted by 1 Kenpachi appearance, perhaps in the form of a two page spread, or 3-4 panels of other Gar characters such as Grim or Ikkaku (and general badassitry).

[Master Chibi]

It needs more Uruu~

[MAQI]

Originally Posted by Placid_Thunder_Cloud

If Ishin is a shinigami... and all shinigami's are spirits... did he reproduce using a gigai?

Thats the only possible explanation, if in fact ichigo and his sisters are not just souls in a gigais that grow, and can two souls mate and make new souls? Law of conservation of energy anyone? I know science and spiritualism don't mix but I guess they do in bleach...

I've often wondered that myself, I work in medicine and this whole spirits having physical illnesses and reproducing is for me what a logic inconsistency is for a robot KT is making my head explode!!!!!!! anyway it makes for a cool story so I'll get over it.

[Crusader]

For me...

1. Drawn out and uninteresting battles. I haven't really been interested in any fights since the SS Arc, the recent battle that actually held my interest was Ichigo versus Ulq, and that was a while back when that occured.

2. Having important people like Aizen,Gin, tosen, and Yamamoto doing little to nothing.

3. This is my biggest complaint here. The character relations are strange sometimes even silly. Renji so intent on killing rukia when he comes to earth, even though they grew up together. That becomes a revelation later for some strange reason. Never followed Byakuya's reasoning at all. Tosen's talk of justice yet joining Aizen's side, and remaining there. I could go on, but it just feels silly to me.

[renzeru]

Originally Posted by maqi

OK here are mine.
1. How come when you are a "soul" you can get physically sick like rukia's sister and Ukitake? Ukitake coughed up blood in an ep. that means one of two things Tuberculosis or Lung Cancer... how can a soul get those? Never really got that.

2. In one of the early episodes when they first got to the SS chad ran into that parakeet kid and the kid told him when you go to the soul society you don't grow or change but rukia and renji and other did grow up...

From what I understand and probably read somewhere, SS is a kind of purgatory, there is supposed to be a higher SS where people that died properly went. Rukia and Renji grew up because they had a large riatsu that needed constant feeding.

3. In the SS there were markets that rukia, renji and their friends stole from. Why have market at all when most souls don't eat anything? and how was there rice and fruit there?

Rukia said it in one of the episodes, that even though they don't need to eat (most of them) they can taste things, and probably is why people would rather eat stuff that has taste than nothing.

4. How dose a soul die? and where dose it go after that? eg. rukia's sister.

From what I understand, when one dies in SS they are reborn in the real world with no memories. So it must be a pretty bad loss to die and start from zero.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Crusader

For me...
3. This is my biggest complaint here. The character relations are strange sometimes even silly. Renji so intent on killing rukia when he comes to earth, even though they grew up together. That becomes a revelation later for some strange reason. Never followed Byakuya's reasoning at all. Tosen's talk of justice yet joining Aizen's side, and remaining there. I could go on, but it just feels silly to me.

Now Tousen is one that i think we will need to learn more about before judging... i mean, he has a strong sense of justice and could be the type that is willing to do anything for the sake of absolutly justice... Perhaps Aizen has told him that he is mearly using the Arrancar as a means to an end, and in the end they will be discarded as pawns... furtharmore, when he is King he will make everything right and all that, and thus Tousen is more than willing to help Aizen acheive his goal

One thing about Soul Society that might have pissed Tousen off is that dispite the fact that they call themselves the good guys, they fully allow shinigami like Kenpachi and Mayuri... those two are pretty evil and in Tousen's opinion both should probably be done away with instead allowed into the ranks of the shinigami... he's already expressed such harsh feelings for Kenpachi, and i'm sure he would think the same of Mayuri

Originally Posted by Jays

1. Having Hitsugaya (& Matsumoto) be the leader of the team that was sent to the real world. Renji's own explination onto the groups formation is flawed and doesn't really make much sense. IF Renji was asked to make a group based on his own desicions, I severely doubt that those two would have been in it. For the most part Kira and Hisagi should have been the ones to replace those two since they have the most immidiate connection to Renji. If anything, Kubo is guilty here of attempting to please fan girls.

don't forget the fanboys XD

though anyway, Kira and Hisagi were probably not in good shape to go to Earth. Kira like Hinamori, is more than likely still recovering from his experince with Gin and being used as a pawn in Aizen's sceam. Hisagi is also in no position to go to Earth seeing as he has to help fill in the hole Left by Tousen... not to mention he too may have some personal issues seeing as his captain was one of the poeple helping Aizen; it's obviosuly wouldn't be as bad as Kira and hinamori, but it it still might have some emotional effect on him even if he doesn't show it.

2. The introduction of the Vizards and Shinji. It's redundant no matter how you look at it. The "new mysterious transfer student" thing wears thin after the first time. Furthermore, their participation up to now just blows, like why even make all of them, if you are never going to do anything with them.

Now this i say you just need to give it time... Bleach ain't over yet, this is not the final arc. The vizards will probably play a much larger role later on seeing as they are rather caught inbetween Soul Society and Aizen; rejected by one, and not excepted (or don't want to be excepted) by the other

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Crusader

For me...

1. Drawn out and uninteresting battles. I haven't really been interested in any fights since the SS Arc, the recent battle that actually held my interest was Ichigo versus Ulq, and that was a while back when that occured.

I think that would have to be my biggest complaint. I realize that each battle gets harder to top than the last, but Bleach's are really on a sharp decline. Kubo put a decent amount of thought into the shinigami techniques, releases, seals, kidou, the whole shingami/zanpakuto relationship. It made the battles more enjoyable because it was like seeing someone use an actual fighting art. Same with the Quincy.

The arrancar and vizard have no real techniques. They just fight. Cero and bala are just generic energy blasts. Sonido is just speed. Ichigo is still getting by with just Getsuga Tenshou. Most of the fights are still fun to look it at (except Szyael's, which is a chore) but they could use some more depth.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

One thing about Soul Society that might have pissed Tousen off is that dispite the fact that they call themselves the good guys, they fully allow shinigami like Kenpachi and Mayuri... those two are pretty evil and in Tousen's opinion both should probably be done away with instead allowed into the ranks of the shinigami... he's already expressed such harsh feelings for Kenpachi, and i'm sure he would think the same of Mayuri

Yet he tolerates Gin, who he's already told to his face that he considers him untrustworthy. I believe you are right about Tousen having a skewed sense of justice. But if he's really disgusted at Soul Society for allowing the likes of Kenpachi and Mayuri it's odd he has no problem with Aizen having Gin in his inner circle. Maybe he believes that Gin is also a "necessary evil" that will eventually be discarded.

[Slayerx]

Y'know i thought of another inconsistancy... the power level of Menos class hollows as to how they are presented in the begining and how they are showed later on.

When they were first intoduced with the gillian-class menos arriving on earth, Rukia said the menos was said to be so powerful that not a single death god could fight... but as it has been proven, captain's, lietents, and some of the other shinigami could hald them quite easily... Hell, Rukia herself killed an Ajucas-level arrancar quiet easily; If she could do that then she should have had no problem at all killing a Gillian...

Really, all these thigns that are gettign pointed out about Bleach makes me think that Kubo really does seem to lack serious foresight when it comes to the details of his world.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Yet he tolerates Gin, who he's already told to his face that he considers him untrustworthy. I believe you are right about Tousen having a skewed sense of justice. But if he's really disgusted at Soul Society for allowing the likes of Kenpachi and Mayuri it's odd he has no problem with Aizen having Gin in his inner circle. Maybe he believes that Gin is also a "necessary evil" that will eventually be discarded.

quite possibly... it may just be the case that Tousen has come to trust Aizen's judgement and as such, if Aizen says it's ok, then it must be nessesary for the overall goals.

[MihawkXGP]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Y'know i thought of another inconsistancy... the power level of Menos class hollows as to how they are presented in the begining and how they are showed later on.

When they were first intoduced with the gillian-class menos arriving on earth, Rukia said the menos was said to be so powerful that not a single death god could fight... but as it has been proven, captain's, lietents, and some of the other shinigami could hald them quite easily... Hell, Rukia herself killed an Ajucas-level arrancar quiet easily; If she could do that then she should have had no problem at all killing a Gillian...

Really, all these thigns that are gettign pointed out about Bleach makes me think that Kubo really does seem to lack serious foresight when it comes to the details of his world.


quite possibly... it may just be the case that Tousen has come to trust Aizen's judgement and as such, if Aizen says it's ok, then it must be nessesary for the overall goals.

According to the chapter translation i just read, Rukia actually said ''Those are under jurdistiction of the Elite forces, truely a lone shinigami cannot oppose it''. And what she killed was a Gillian, not an Adjucus.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

According to the chapter translation i just read, Rukia actually said ''Those are under jurdistiction of the Elite forces, truely a lone shinigami cannot oppose it''. And what she killed was a Gillian, not an Adjucus.

No he was an Adjucas... we saw all of Grimjow's anarcar buddies while they were still in their hollow forms during his flashback. D-roy was the giant snake-like thing that tried to take a bite out grimjow, and since he had that kind of body it means that he was an adjucas. The only Gillian was Nakim, the big fat one, who in the flashback had a gillian body with a unique mask... if D-Roy was a gillian, he would have had a gillian-like body.

Not to mention, even if he was gillian, he was an anacar and thus more powerful than a normal gillian and it doesn't at all change the fact that Rukia killed him effortlessly... If she could kill d-roy without effort than she could kill a Gillian without effort... She say's no lone shinigami could handle one, but She herself proved that statement to be dead wrong... along with Hitsuhyga, Masumoto, Ikkau, and everyone else who SINGLE HANDEDLY has killed an anarcar thus far, since every anarcar has atleast Gillian level power if not greater.

[Flashdance]

Originally Posted by Placid_Thunder_Cloud

If Ishin is a shinigami... and all shinigami's are spirits... did he reproduce using a gigai?

Well Ichigo is a Shinigami too and he still has a "normal" body. So maybe his father also wasnt really dead, when he became a shinigami.


As for Tosens reasons...maybe he only accepts "pure" souls like Aizen (pure evil?) or great visions (becoming God).

[Vagrant0]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I think that would have to be my biggest complaint. I realize that each battle gets harder to top than the last, but Bleach's are really on a sharp decline. Kubo put a decent amount of thought into the shinigami techniques, releases, seals, kidou, the whole shingami/zanpakuto relationship. It made the battles more enjoyable because it was like seeing someone use an actual fighting art. Same with the Quincy.

The arrancar and vizard have no real techniques. They just fight. Cero and bala are just generic energy blasts. Sonido is just speed. Ichigo is still getting by with just Getsuga Tenshou. Most of the fights are still fun to look it at (except Szyael's, which is a chore) but they could use some more depth.

Yeah, it does seem to be slowly falling into that DBZ rut. I think part of the problem is that the series transitioned way from normal hollows too quicky. In the beginning, all the enemies had special gimmicks which made them interesting to see fight. Every fight brought new challenges. Although arrancar have those hollow abities, they rarely use them. which tends to create a sense of blah. Having several characters who have unknown abilities around doesn't make things interesting, it just makes those characters seem less significant. What ever happened to fights where the hero got owned, and had to do something other than a training session to suddenly get stronger? You know, learn from failures... It started out that way, it was what made the first part of the series good...

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

No he was an Adjucas... we saw all of Grimjow's anarcar buddies while they were still in their hollow forms during his flashback. D-roy was the giant snake-like thing that tried to take a bite out grimjow, and since he had that kind of body it means that he was an adjucas. The only Gillian was Nakim, the big fat one, who in the flashback had a gillian body with a unique mask... if D-Roy was a gillian, he would have had a gillian-like body.

Not to mention, even if he was gillian, he was an anacar and thus more powerful than a normal gillian and it doesn't at all change the fact that Rukia killed him effortlessly... If she could kill d-roy without effort than she could kill a Gillian without effort... She say's no lone shinigami could handle one, but She herself proved that statement to be dead wrong... along with Hitsuhyga, Masumoto, Ikkau, and everyone else who SINGLE HANDEDLY has killed an anarcar thus far, since every anarcar has atleast Gillian level power if not greater.

You have to remeber all the information she had on them at the time was from text books and she was at almost 0 power level due to what Urahara's giga was doing to her. Menos level threats rarely come to the real world since in yammies words humans souls are to weak to fill them for the most part. So she was baseing everthing on infromation that was most likely hundrads of years old and writen for low level student shinigami, wheil powerless and beleiveing that she herself was never even at a seated power level.

[Slayerx]

looking back at older episodes of bleach, one thing i was kind of picking up on was the drastic character changes for a few characters. In Particular, Renji. When we first saw Renji he was on a mission to capture Rukia for a crime so bad that they could kill her right on the spot if nessasary. Thing is though, he looked like he was enjoying the mission WAY to much... and he seemed rather genuine as opposed to some act. He seemed to enjoy attack Rukia, frightening her, and then when poeple came to help her, poeple she made it clear she cared about, Renji seem to take great joy and beating them down and was ready to kill them. Really, you know from the conversation that He and Rukia knew eachother from the past, but you damn well would not guess that they were childhood best friends... but then once we get to Soul Society he pulls a 180 and starts to act and sound like he is a close childhood friend... it's like Kubo specifically changed Renji's personality in the begining to make him look like a villian, and then changed it back to make him sympathetic.

Ikkaku mgiht be another one... really, can you imagine the Ikkaku we've seen in more recent chapters to dance around in front of his opponent like he did when he first ran into Ichigo? though i'm more willing to let that slide as one time joke kind of thing.

anoher thing i was thinking about was how soul society tolerates Ishida, chad and Orihime fighting... afterall, the whole reason the quincys were wiped out was because they killed hollows instead of cleansing them. Ishida, Chad and Orihime should be doing them same... However, i'm willing to excep that SS tolerates it for need of strong fighters in time of war, and also since their are only a few of them, they aren't doing much damage; as opposed to when you have hundreds of quicys doing it, and then there's a poblem.

But that got me thinking about something in more recent chapters, Ichigo's unwillingness to kill Dordonii, and also leaving him to be killed by the Exequias... in a sence, Killing Dordonii would have been the best thing for Ichigo to do as he would have been Purified as opposed to being killed by the Exequias which means destruction for him. Ichigo didn't really seem to take that into consideration when he let Dordonii live; he thought about Dordonii possibly attacking him, but didn't think about him being Destroyed for failing Aizen and that purification is generally a good thing... afterall, the realization that Hollows were human, followed by knowing that killing the hollows was a form of purification was a source of confort for Ichigo and what made she he would be able to kill them even if he knew they were once human souls.

I've also been thinking about friendly Ichigo has been with anarcar and hollows as of late. Not just Dordonii, but Nell, Pesche and Dondo aswell. i mean, sure their goof offs and seem harmless, but when it comes down to it, they are hollows and as such still need to consume human souls as food... which is bad thing... Nell, being an arancar should be eating hollows (though in her child form she may only need human souls tokeep going) and that too should set off a shinigami since hollows are still human souls that need to be purfied; though i'm more lenient there as Ichigo has no problem with Ishida and chad killing hollows... as much as he might pity/idenitify/care for them, they are still soul eating monsters that should be purified.

Originally Posted by kagato3

You have to remeber all the information she had on them at the time was from text books and she was at almost 0 power level due to what Urahara's giga was doing to her. Menos level threats rarely come to the real world since in yammies words humans souls are to weak to fill them for the most part. So she was baseing everthing on infromation that was most likely hundrads of years old and writen for low level student shinigami, wheil powerless and beleiveing that she herself was never even at a seated power level.

Somewhat true, however, Rukia should be able to sence the reitsu from the menos and campare it to the officers in soul society, if not compare it to her former powers and probably see that a gillian is actually well below a captain or a vice captain. She should also have all the same infomartion that any other shinigami has( i mean, how can she call herself a good shinigami and not keep herself up to date; especially on something THAT threatening), and when it comes down to it, all of the shinigami went and fought the arancar with little to no fear. If they all knew the same stuff that Rukia knew, then they would probably jump to the conclusion that a gillian would be a serious or even impossible challange for a single captain or vice captain, much less Menos that changed into the more powerful Arancar, and should have been extremely worried about going into battle.

hell, when they were explaining to ichigo the whole menos evolution and mentioned that the gillian were only foot soldiers, no one seemed to point out that Ichigo had nothing to fear as the gillians are below the level of a vice captain. they continued to play it up as a serious threat.

another thing i was also remined of while looking back at old chapters was Rukia's fight with that first Hollow... considering how effortless it was for her to kill D-roy, i would think that she would be able to kill a hollow like that one in a single strike... as oppose to light cut to the arm and needing to sacrifice herself to save Ichigo... comparing her relative difficulty with that hollow and how easy the far more powerful D-roy was to kill, i can't help but think Kubo weakened her for the sake of plot

I guess that's a serious problem that can come up with most shonen... most shonen series like to make it so that there is a massive difference in strength between characters. If they would tone it down and big everyone closer to eachother, then seeing a character become stronger than another in a rather short amount of time would nto seem so unbeliable... as in, if the strength of D-roy and that hollow were a lot closer, then we can believe that Rukia might have some trouble with that hollow and yet, a month of training fter getting her powers back, might be strong enough to fight with D-roy.

[empzone]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

looking back at older episodes of bleach, one thing i was kind of picking up on was the drastic character changes for a few characters. In Particular, Renji.

This bugs me, too. If you think about Renji's character right now, it's hard to imagine he would even think about cutting Rukia, yet that's exactly what he does when he goes after her in the real world.

[Amirali]

Originally Posted by empzone

This bugs me, too. If you think about Renji's character right now, it's hard to imagine he would even think about cutting Rukia, yet that's exactly what he does when he goes after her in the real world.

1) Well, he was just cutting her gigai. That's not the same thing as cutting her; at least that might be how shinigami look at it?

2)Also, I think Renji was probably scared that if he didn't frighten her enough and she resisted........Byakuya wouldn't have given her a chance to turn herself in peacefully. I got the impression afterwards that a lot of his bark and bite was a pretense for Byakuya's benefit. He doesn't speak more warmly to her until they're alone together.

3)Most importantly, Renji was still bitter at her about being rejected, not just as a potential boyfriend (that still might happen) but even as a friend and comrade. There's nothing more painful a friend can do to another friend. It wasn't till Rukia was about to be executed, that he realized she meant more to him than any old emotional hangups.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

it's like Kubo specifically changed Renji's personality in the begining to make him look like a villian, and then changed it back to make him sympathetic.

That's one of the most paradoxical things about love. While it can inspire great tenderness, it can also inspire bitterness and even violence against the object of affection. A happily married couple one day, a sad case of domestic abuse a few years later. Love can make the same person do acts of great kindness and of deep cruelty. Of course, Kubo deliberately showed the ugly side of Renji first to try and give us the wrong impression, but at least it felt like he had the character backstory in mind right from the beginning. And a case could be made for the character change, as coming about from the shock of knowing Rukia was going to die. On the other hand, Rukia struggling against a level 2 hollow and fighting espada 9 later doesn't exactly look well planned.

I didn't have any major problem with Bleach till the Hueco Mundo arc. Sure, the power levels have been inconsistent, self-contradictory and overcomplicated for a long time............but that's shounen. What bothers me is that majority (not all!) of the fights don't have any purpose or emotional drive behind them now. The only motivation in most cases is that one combatant is from Team Good and the other is from Team Evil. Those kind of fights just fill space without adding much in terms of character development or story.

[BleachOD]

Originally Posted by Zaseka

What? U want all the characters to have ohsogreatandpretty abilities or what?
Not everyone is Ichigo who with his prettiness and oh so Über bankai styled katana rules them all. Minor characters should stay behind the leading ones, isn't that a rule in shonen??

I love you...That was the inspiring.

Say that again!

Naruto's cast is bigger and it doesn't take away from the story.

Personally, I don't care about Kira. It's Hisagi who needs character development

Not to mention, if everyone was Uber strong...It would take away the mystique of Bankai, Captain, Arrancar, Vaizards and Aizen-Almighty... <--Extreme Sarcasm-DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE!

Ichigo would still be the bomb (Sickening...I know.) but otherwise it would suck. BIG TIME

[King Lycan]

What went wrong imo is that they got saved by a couple of captains which was like always they being saved. Ulquiorra wont come out and Ishida fight took years