Fate/stay night Episode 6 Discussion thread

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Just watched the ep and looked over this thread and i'll say this.
The only reason some of you want to bash Shirou is because he does things you so want to do. But because society is the way it is, you percieve that its impossible to hold such an ideal so you call anyone who fights that logic naive and stupid. Its quite sad really how we abandon our ideals to conform.

Sometimes its good to be honest with ourselves.
I guess there will be two factions in this forum.

I agree with you to a certain extent, however I believe that its more that people with high ideals like Shirou and would accually be willing to selflessly give thier life for someone else are few and far between. They are differant then the norm and therefore are viewed as such.

But most criticism I have seen about Shirou is more about the way he follows through with his ideal rather then the ideal itself. Take this ep for example, Riders attack on Rin while she was healing that girl. Shirou intercepted that attack and immediatly set out to find the perpetrator, very amirable yes, especially with a whole in his arm. However what if the attacker was to circle around him while he was stumbling around outside and got to Rin while she was still tending to the girl? Rin was the target of the first attack not him. My first response to that attack wound have been to slam the door shut ( after screaming bloody hell that theres a hole in my arm ) and strenghen it with my ability until Rin's done with treating the girl. I dont hate Shirou or his ideal of wanted to be a hero of justice, but his tendency of taking the most self sacrificing path in a situation is sometimes counter productive, its just hes been lucky so far

[npal]

Well, all's said and done, I'm a bit late, but I'll add my opinion nonetheless.

I support everything Shirou has done up to this point. I would've been a lot more careful, sure, but I like his sheer determination to uphold his ideals to their fullest, no matter the personal cost. I like his unyielding style and his recklessness when his ideals are called forth. His pure devotion to his noble ideals to the point of seemingly stupidity is inspiring and touching.

I cannot judge his character development, cause it's still the 6th episode. But I suppose he will have to make hard choices in the future, only made harder by his inability to stray from his absolute ideals. Admirable but painful. And I wouldn't call Shirou stupid, just an idealist, true idealists can appear stupid. I believe he understands what he's doing, he's thought about it and chose to act the way he did (shielding Saber, not summoning Saber, etc). I wouldn't mind if he sticks to that level of idealism, but his recklessness could cost him his life, obviously. I suppose even a blind idealist like Shirou should take the time to at least study magic and some form of martial combat. Then, by all means, rush to protect everyone. I believe that's the first thing Shirou must understand. While his intentions and his ideals are noble, he needs training. But I don't think he had much time to train. I also believe he really hasn't really grasped how serious the other Masters can be. But I suppose he'll be able to get those messages in the next episodes, or his life will be short.

Having said all the above, even if Shirou, for some reason that escapes me, continues with his current choice of actions, I'll still support him but I want a good explanation of why he keeps surviving, if he is put in extreme danger again. A real person in Shirou's place would have most likely died by now, but I still wouldn't call him stupid. It's no small thing to put your life at risk with no apparent weapons against armed and vicious opponents because you want to protect someone else, against all odds.

What strikes me is his father's words : "Saving one person means not being able to save another", and I'm sure Shirou will be forced to face that eventually, which would be really tragic for such an idealist. All in all, I think we have a lot of Shirou development to see, and I can't understand why he's condemned by so many people. Personally, I like him even as he is now.

I think Shirou and Saber make a nice couple

And don't compare Shirou with Rin (Shuffle). Rin's a huge ass who can't do anything right. Damn, even Takayuki (KGNE) is better than Rin

[Moon Eclipse]

Originally Posted by npal

And don't compare Shirou with Rin (Shuffle). Rin's a huge ass who can't do anything right. Damn, even Takayuki (KGNE) is better than Rin

Let's not go crazy here... I think saying Rin was worse than Tak is abit overboard. But back to Fate Stay Night. It'll be interesting to see how Shirou develops when he is put into a situation where he has to face the truth of only being able to save only so many and then stand by helplessly while others he couldn't save suffer and/or die.

[justinstrife]

Someone posted about how foolish Shirou was going out after Rider and leaving Rin behind, and how Rider could have circled around him to get to Rin. What that person fails to remember from the episode, is Shirou says so himself, he can feel that the enemy was close, and felt them from behind the archery dojo and in the woods. So if they had gone around him, he would have followed them back to Rin. Lets not forget when Lancer attacked him the second time. He felt Lancer's presence above the rooftop. Have we seen any masters yet who are able to sense Servants? He's the only one so far. Just food for thought. Also about him not doing anything yet, and not trying to learn more magic and martial arts. If you look at the timeline in these 6 episodes, a maximum of 3-4 days has accured. Not very much chance considering all that's happened to him, to learn anything. Who's going to teach him? Rin and Saber are his only options, and well they haven't had an opportunity yet to teach him(which will be fixed soon enough).

As for Shirou's reasons for still being alive at this point... Lets just say there's a real good reason beyond him being the main character.

[Moon Eclipse]

Originally Posted by justinstrife

Someone posted about how foolish Shirou was going out after Rider and leaving Rin behind, and how Rider could have circled around him to get to Rin. What that person fails to remember from the episode, is Shirou says so himself, he can feel that the enemy was close, and felt them from behind the archery dojo and in the woods. So if they had gone around him, he would have followed them back to Rin. Lets not forget when Lancer attacked him the second time. He felt Lancer's presence above the rooftop. Have we seen any masters yet who are able to sense Servants? He's the only one so far. Just food for thought. Also about him not doing anything yet, and not trying to learn more magic and martial arts. If you look at the timeline in these 6 episodes, a maximum of 3-4 days has accured. Not very much chance considering all that's happened to him, to learn anything. Who's going to teach him? Rin and Saber are his only options, and well they haven't had an opportunity yet to teach him(which will be fixed soon enough).

As for Shirou's reasons for still being alive at this point... Lets just say there's a real good reason beyond him being the main character.

Who was he feeling? Rider? Her master? Or that Spike in his arm that was just invisible?

[demon_god04]

@justinstrife
Well I believe that someone said

But most criticism I have seen about Shirou is more about the way he follows through with his ideal rather then the ideal itself.

then provided an example, and described how he himself would have responded to that situation instead. Nowhere in the statment did that someone say Shirou was foolish, and left it to people's opinion's whether they think hes foolish or not.

Sure he sensed Rider, but then proceeded to drop his guard because he thought he saw, heard and/or felt a familiar presense (Shinji). If Rider wanted Rin dead are you sure she couldn't have went around Shirou while he was lured into the woods calling out to Shinji? I didnt deny Shirou's ability, he holds up pretty well against servants. I just felt that from my point of view that running out headlong into an unknown enemy while injured and leaving behind the target of the first attack from said enemy while she was tending to a victim of the enemy didnt make much sense. In my opinion making sure that Rin was alright by guarding her while her attention was focused on reviving the girl was better then running into an unknown enemy's possible ambush.

[Prodigious]

IMO, Shirou is a kid. What would you do in the situation? Assuming running away is not an option, and you had ideals which basically forced you to do stupid stuff like this. Shirou isn't one to sit around forming battle plans, or going around taking the course of action that makes the most sense. This has been made clear from the beginning. He's not Rin, he's not Saber, he is himself and the things he does fit his personality type perfectly.

[justinstrife]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

@justinstrife
Well I believe that someone said then provided an example, and described how he himself would have responded to that situation instead. Nowhere in the statment did that someone say Shirou was foolish, and left it to people's opinion's whether they think hes foolish or not.

Sure he sensed Rider, but then proceeded to drop his guard because he thought he saw, heard and/or felt a familiar presense (Shinji). If Rider wanted Rin dead are you sure she couldn't have went around Shirou while he was lured into the woods calling out to Shinji? I didnt deny Shirou's ability, he holds up pretty well against servants. I just felt that from my point of view that running out headlong into an unknown enemy while injured and leaving behind the target of the first attack from said enemy while she was tending to a victim of the enemy didnt make much sense. In my opinion making sure that Rin was alright by guarding her while her attention was focused on reviving the girl was better then running into an unknown enemy's possible ambush.

Ahh you're missing what I said yet again. Let me repeat myself. He can sense servants when the situation warrants it. MEANING, that if Rider had gone around him, he would have traced her back to Rin. He's sensed Lancer and he's sensed Rider so far in this series. Also she said so herself it was a trap to lure him out so Rin wasn't her real target at that point. He was.

[orion]

Personally, I think that the deleting of the spoilers which may be game-related is alittle too much. These type of spoilers do add another layer to understanding the anime. Besides, there are loads of sites that discuss the game. To think that the people watching the anime are existing in a vacuum is erroneus imo. Besides, no-translation notes-on-the-DVD Geneon has this title. so the only way that Region 1 DVD buyers who don't understand Japanese can get a better understanding may be from the game players.

( Not meaning to offend anyone. It's just my opinion.)


I really liked ep.6 and gave it a 10, mostly for Rider's fight scene and finding out that

Spoiler:

Shinji is one sick dude! That poor archery captain was his first victim!

Spoiler:

Shirou is just that way, a protector of justice and fair maidens! So, it made perfect sense for him to protect Rin and to attempt to face Rider alone. He just needs to power up some more.

But I thought that he was alittle lame for not recognizing Shinji as Rider's Master.

I thougt it was pretty obvious from the get go that Rin likes Shirou. She also seems to act similarly (sense of justice) like Shirou.

From what Rin's dad was saying, it's a family duty to be in the Grail War, so Rin has to find a stronger reason imo.

[Cyz]

rider's voice is so sexy. it makes my hair stand up anyway, archer seems to be distraught that rin doesn't attack shirou seriously....could it be that she's....

Spoiler:

In love?

[demon_god04]

*response to justinstrife's post*

I know what you said you missed my meaning, first of all I didnt say he couldnt sense Rider, he certainly sensed SOMEONE thats why hes in the woods. BUT he dropped his guard when he thought he saw Shinji and Rider got the jump on him correct? In the he managed to block the next attack because then he was focused and could sense the attack, when he was yelling for Shinji to come out he was not and couldn't react to Rider's attack in time. Without having to make referances to the game and just by judging the other servants that he has seen, most of them are quite agile and fast most likely more so then Shirou. Also Shirou was only getting a general Idea of were Rider was, he might have realized it if Rider was to circle back and attack Rin but most likely too late. Not to mention that as I said before Rider jumped him he was distracted by Shinji.

Originally Posted by justinstrife

Also she said so herself it was a trap to lure him out so Rin wasn't her real target at that point. He was.

Your right but Shirou didn't know that did he? The attack was aimed at Rin and what made Shirou mad was that and the fact that the girl was attacked.

Also I think you missed the point in my post, I might not have been all that clear though. I was saying I can UNDERSTAND the criticism people have of Shirou and the actions he takes. I gave a recent example and followed with what I would have done in that situation.

I think most if the the criticisms against Shirou's actions have to do with the fact that he does not react in what we would consider a normal manner. I simply used an example of one of those situations and provided an example of what a more normal response would have been. I used myself because I cant predict how anyone else would have acted in the same situation, but if you think what I'd have done to be to be unlogical in that situation feel free to say so.

Also I never said that Shirou should have reacted more like my example, I know what kind of character he is and he has differant prioities then I do. I'd do everything I could to help but I would also be keeping my self preservation instincts active, Shirou doesn't care about that as long as he can do something which resulted in HIS reaction. However this differance is the main reason people get fustrated with his character is because he seems to chooses to react in a way with the lowest chances of survival, very differant from what most of us, including me, would have reacted.

I think in your fervor to defend Shirou you misunderstood what I meant in my post. This is turning into a rant so im going to stop typing and have breakfast

[Maids! Maids! Maids!]

I think I know how I would react as well. I'd act like any dead person would after being run through with a lance. I'd probably stay dead, because I don't think I'm Rin's type. But let's say I was. Let's say I was killed, punted through the air and into the side of a house, bludgeoned by a giant, chased through the school by girl maniacally shooting at me from her finger, and then pierced by a large pointy object on a chain. If I were in my late teens, I might subconsciously feel I was invincible. But I'm not in my late teens. I'm at an age where a heart attack would most likely be the appropriate response.

Young men often act without regarding the consequences -- on principle, for love, for kicks, you name it. Shirou has been killed and pulverized and stabbed and it only seems to make him stronger. Subconsciously or not, that has to have an effect on his decision making process. We all might act like supermen if we had reason to believe we were.

[Prodigious]

Or if we were trying to get laid...

I have yet to see Shirou trying to protect an ugly girls, or any guys. See what I mean?

[Maids! Maids! Maids!]

Originally Posted by Prodigious

Or if we were trying to get laid...

I have yet to see Shirou trying to protect an ugly girls, or any guys. See what I mean?

I know what you mean. Shirou may have a bit of Don Quixote in him, so who knows. (Actually, I think he has a lot of Don Quixote in him. It may be why people think he's a little crazy or foolish.) His gallant behavior is having a very positive effect on the various lovely damsels in distress. His actions in Episode 6 did nothing to diminish Rin's feelings towards him, and I'm sure Saber on some level would have been impressed as well.

[AnimePlus]

Originally Posted by Prodigious

Or if we were trying to get laid...

I have yet to see Shirou trying to protect an ugly girls, or any guys. See what I mean?

There's not a problem with that, I mean ugly girls are ugly and guys don't have the necessary parts.