2012-11-12, 00:51 | Link #3141 | ||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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TBH, this entire paragraph tells me you don't really have a grasp on what the EU is. Europe, and the EU, is not a singular sovereign state, it has never been, nor is it intended to be. It was created to prevent Europe from descending into yet another world war after falling into TWO of them in less than 40 years, by increasing the economic ties between the member nations. Sounds like you want the European nations to cede their sovereignty to the EU, not going to happen. |
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2012-11-12, 01:05 | Link #3143 | |||
formerly ogon bat
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Mexico
Age: 53
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2012-11-12, 01:29 | Link #3144 | |
cho~ kakkoii
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 3rd Planet
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That said, now that the Democrats are in the thick of things, everyone better brace yourself if you like your internet as it is now...... It's just a matter of time before we see more of those SOPA/PIPA pops up. It's not a coincidence why DNC's platform-stage (sound, video, lighting etc..) was so much better than the RNC one. Btw, VCB's chart is so irrelevant when I take into accounts the structure of government, people and culture of those countries listed. Something that may appear good outside looking in, doesn't mean it will work out the same way if roles reversed. There is a lot of reason why Obama became so unpopular in the last two years of his presidency in the US, but the biggest reason was highlighted in his first debate. The guy essentially became ineffective at communicating (even with his own party.) Yeah, I know it's easier for outside-world to judge Obama when they are comparing it to the backdrop of 8 years of Bush, but the thing is, a lot of people were also hoping that things would turn around dramatically when Obama became president. For people outside, it's like how you have that adorable 2 year old nephew/niece that you can't have enough of, but at the end of the day you aren't going to deal with all the crying and fussing and pampering and all the hard work a parent put in to bring up that child..... because you are going to leave. I personally don't want see a Obama-like in Germany in my life-time because that would seriously tarnish my entire image of the Blitzkrieg-nation I hold dear. On an entirely different topic, I've been listening to the weekly House of Common questionnaire for England Prime Minister, and this thing is sheer entertainment. People are allowed to heckle in their for heaven's sake... And that Speaker, oh my gosh.... he is such a bad-ass. P.S. Oh James... can we have a General US Politics thread once the excitement of the election dies down in here? I, for one, don't want to lose all the fun discussing US politics. Yeah, I'm pretty much relying on you to start up the thread since you've been proactive at engaging us with US politics.
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2012-11-12, 01:40 | Link #3145 | |||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Are you seriously saying that the various european countries should cede control of their military to a central EU government, but nothing else would change, and everything will just keep going as if nothing happened? really? Let me ask you something, who is going to say no to the EU govt if it decide to impose a particular law or policy? or if it decides to enter into a war? What are the member nation going to do? ask nicely? Seriously, please point out a single country on the planet that has some other governing entity controlling their military. It's ok, I'll wait. |
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2012-11-12, 01:57 | Link #3146 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Christ, I can't believe Rove spent 400 million dollars on campaign and lost almost every single race. If Crossroads was a company and Karl the CEO, he would be fired so hard now that would be smoldering crater in his office. Think how much good that money have done.
Away some fascinating back-stage stories on Romney's campaign have been coming out in the last few days: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-...Num=1&tag=page http://www.buzzfeed.com/mckaycoppins/the-donald-problem This just further paints how so out of touch Romney and the rest of GOP were with reality, that they eventually believed in the bullshit they created themselves created. Now that the bubble has crashed, hopefully they can return being a sane party again, if that's even possible. Last edited by Iron Maw; 2012-11-12 at 02:16. |
2012-11-12, 02:03 | Link #3147 | ||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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That's how you know both of them want the same thing, they just play this game of "us verses them" to whip up support from their bases and pay off their handlers/backers. Quote:
Well, let me point out some major differences between Libertarians and myself. Libertarians don't believe in Jefferson's Government Healthcare system. Many of them (though not all) don't believe in government police, fire departments, or paramedic services. Whereas a classical liberal sees those as the exclusive jurisdiction of government. In fact, many classical liberals see the public-private military industrial complex as offensive, and I'm one of them. There shouldn't be private companies like McDonald-Douglas, Northrop-Grumman, Colt, Bushmasher, or other military contractors supplying the US government (unless there is an emergency like WWII). That's not to say there shouldn't be private military producers for the civilian market, just they shouldn't be supplying the government. However, outside of such an emergency, government shipyards, weapons manufacturers, and armories should be the only suppliers to the Federal and State armed forces. It used to be that citizens could buy weapons directly from the old Springfield Armory in Springfield Mass. Springfield Armory was a government arsenal. Unlike some Libertarians, I'm not for minimal government per se, I'm for minimal government intrusion into the lives of the citizenry and in the free market. I wants limits on what government can tell us we can own, who we can have sex with, what we can do with our bodies, what we can put in our bodies, and what we can do with our property. Unlike some Libertarians, I believe government should crush monopolies with an iron fist, and it should not allow for the creation of corporations. Many classical liberals also don't believe in intellectual property rights (which is something some socialists agree with us on). Classical Liberals are also completely opposed to Objectivism. Something that many Libertarians embrace. Quote:
If healthcare were necessary for survival we'd have gone extinct as a species thousands of years ago since it didn't exist in its modern form prior to the 19th century. If you mean that in the modern world it has become necessary for survival, then so is a house, a car, I'd argue a computer, self-defense, and yes health care. So in the sense that in our modern society it is something necessary to survive, I would agree. But not from a historical standpoint. FDR's "2nd Bill of Rights" should have been passed and ratified, but the corporate influence in the 1930s was already well established thanks to Woodrow Wilson. Quote:
Thus we again agree, though from different angles of the issue. I really wanted to see the mandate struck down and the bill reworked into an actual tax and/or expansion of medicare/aid to cover people making less than 30,000/year. That would have made more sense then forcing people to buy insurance or pay a fine. BTW if you want to read the entire PPACA, here is the PDF of it. http://www.workplacefairness.org/lin...-as-passed.pdf Quote:
However I'll go one step farther and say that money isn't the problem per se. Money is just labor in a tangible form that can be traded for poducts or services. These large companies aren't motivated by profit as much as they're motivated by power. I'd submit that power is the problem, and/or the lust for it on the part of both corporations and government. Look at Fox News or MSNBC. Both lust for the power to influence and manipulate the population into their view of the world. Profit is a factor to keep their businesses going, but the motivation is power. I say this because governments are just as guilty of colluding with the very mega-corps and monopolies we've both mentioned here. Power corrupts and it is no wonder the US government has become corrupt due to its level of power. Healthcare is no different. If you control a person's health, you control that person, and there in lies the danger. Quote:
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Stalin proved beyond any doubt that one man can hold so much power as to be able to apply deadly force against a population at his whim. North Korea is the same way right now. That is why I say government is force, because it intimidates the populus into doing what the leaders want, that's how dictatorships operate. Quote:
Moderate, effective government in the sense of one that serves its people rather than the people serving it, is the most desirable form. Quote:
Listen? No. I'm a rebellious SOB who does what he wants and doesn't listen to outside influence. I don't watch the TV. I think the last show I watched on TV was the X-files when it was brand new. I do watch anime (like all of us here), but probably not as much as most people here. Mostly I like to read. As to your questions. I wear both a toga and jeans, as well as sweatpants. I use both chopsticks and a fork depending on the meal. I speak English, some French, and a little Japanese (which I suck at ). True Freedom is an idea. Mortimer J. Adler explained it very well in his book "The Idea of Freedom." Quote:
Jefferson being one of the most outspoken. Breaking the bonds of mercantilsm was certainly a difficult task, but things aren't better now. We're now at the mercy of corporations. Workers' rights are a joke if you can't even start a business or compete with the monopolies. Being your own business owner is vastly superior to being a worker, which is why Marx was full of shit in Das Kapital. As you know, I hate Marx. The dumbassitude he perpetuated on the world is still conning people into believing it and corporatism has benefited on a level that idiot never dreamed possible. I'd like to go back in a Tardis and beat the snot out of him with a copy of R.J. Rummel's book in one hand and a copy of David Korten's book in the other. I hope Lenin is kicking his ass in some other dimension right now. So while the "good ol days" weren't always good, the "progress" over the last 236 years has brought with it a whole new slew of problems. Quote:
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In proper constitutional republic, the gestapo isn't even supposed to exist, let alone show up at your door. Quote:
A contract is an agreement between two parties. The constitution is an agreement between the people of the states and the federal government. If political parties abuse their positions of federal power and seek to impose their agenda on states that don't want it, then they've violated the constitution. The constitution protects minority rights (all minorities now with the amendments) in opposition to the whim of the collective. That's why it matters so much, Solace.
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Last edited by GundamFan0083; 2012-11-12 at 02:15. |
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2012-11-12, 02:07 | Link #3148 | ||||
formerly ogon bat
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Mexico
Age: 53
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2012-11-12, 02:29 | Link #3149 | |||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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If you want to debate the merits of a single-world government, we can do that (thought frankly it would be more appropriate in an alternate history or sci-fi thread, as the chance of that happening is probably about the same as being invaded by aliens), but you'd have to come back down to Earth first. |
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2012-11-12, 04:49 | Link #3150 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Technically the United States of America is a collection of 50 sovereign states (countries), that for a century or so had their own militaries (the state militia) until they were all combined into the National Guard in the 20th century. The Civil War was a collection of State armies, volunteers, drafted soldiers, as well as the national Army. On both sides.
Speaking of Civil War and secession...those 15 states actually cannot break away from the United State, even with a write in vote. It is considered illegal under the Constitution. Texas v. White (1869) holds that once a state enter the Union, it becomes part of a indissoluble political body that is the United States of America. "The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States" ~Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase Which to me reads that unless all the states agree that a state can leave (one assumed via a vote of some kind, be it popular, or Congressional) that the state may not leave the Union. It would be about the reverse of the statehood application as currently enacted. Basically the what Puerto Rico was doing, save that they would not have the statehood option onthe ballot. Instead it would be a vote for independance. If the majority of the State says they should leave, they then have to go though Congress to ask permission to leave, than have the President sign it, releasing them from the United States of America. (because independance was an option for Puerto Rico and the President said he would follow the will of the Puerto Ricans on their referendum. But they picked statehood, so unless something stalls it in Congress or their is a legal battle over the referendum, We will have a 51st state. Not so likely we will have a mass reduction in the number of states, given how realities are these days. Unless the President or Congress do something vile enough to warrent a real rebellion, the states will hold together.
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2012-11-12, 05:30 | Link #3151 | |||||||||||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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If you get a fiasco similar to the debt ceiling stuff, more people might start paying attention. That hasn't borne out yet. Quote:
Though in 2000, with the cold war long over, many countries were fairly enamored of the USA. George Bush squandered a lot of good will. Quote:
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Economically, the EU is almost integrated enough, with movement and work being easy enough that most of the national borders may as well not exist for day to day life. In military matters, Europe doesn't need a joint force. Most of the powerful states are already part of the unified command structure of NATO. Quote:
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European states differ on more minor conflicts, but where it counts (defending against Russia) you'll find Europe quite unified. Quote:
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In terms of US politics, I would see nothing wrong with loosening the Union. If Texans disagree with New Yorkers, then let the Texas have different laws on the matter then New York. |
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2012-11-12, 05:40 | Link #3152 |
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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@kyp275,
The EU was meant to provide a foundation for economic cooperation between european nations before the Euro was introduced in the Euro-nations. Singular countries could be considered fully independent before the introduction of the Euro. Whatever that means, because when you want to live with your neighbours, you will never be fully independent (nor is it a bad thing to find solutions that are internationally accepted - at least from most like minded neighbours). The Euro was one step to decrease the independence, since now fiscal policies are felt everywhere in Euro-nations. As you can currently see, the northern and southern nations contradict in their policies... and now they have to find a consensus, because the Euro took them the ability to this for their own. We as nations lost independence, but we gained the need for consistent policies. Another nation independence decreasing factor is the recent introduction of the EU-treaties. It doesn't seem like much, but these two things are now among the major competitors to e.g. Germany's basic law (and certainly for other nation's constitutions too). For example the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany usually meant to defend Germany's basic law is very eager to find loopholes in the interpretation to make it not clash with EU-law. In my oppinion this is a major sign for giving up national independence (and I doubt Germany is the only country in this process). So, yeah technically, the EU (except Great Britain) nowadays is meant to de-nationalize EU-nations. If that is a good or bad thing, is stuff for another debate. @ogon_bat, The EU-nations are not as dependent as you think yet. But thats not really the issue here, its just a strawman - you clearly are against the RIAA/MPAA and the attempts to make supranational law. US law is not applicaple to other nations. The only thing that makes other nations follow US law is powerful US-embargos. If that is what really irks you, you should concentrate the debate on it.
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2012-11-12, 09:06 | Link #3154 |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
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U.S. Congress created this cliff and may now plunge off it
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8AA02620121111
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2012-11-12, 10:09 | Link #3155 |
Schwing!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Central Texas
Age: 39
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Letter to a future Republican Strategist regarding white people
awesome read and if the link doesn't work for some odd reason click teh sp0iler :3 Spoiler for Long letter is long:
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2012-11-12, 10:09 | Link #3156 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2006
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But that said, the petitions are just from some morons who no idea what they're saying. I doubt the major of populace in those states actually want secede. It's not the first time in recent history crazy people have brought this up IIRC, some guys wanted Texas to break from U.S in 2008. This post election hysteria will probably die down in couple of months when their realize the Obama isn't going to sell the country to China, take their guns or bring about whatever conspiracies they have been lead to believe. Last edited by Iron Maw; 2012-11-12 at 10:27. |
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2012-11-12, 10:45 | Link #3157 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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E.T Williams weighs in on the idea that conservatives are only "angry old White Men."
Perhaps the GOP is changing already, as we see more and more people of color gaining a foothold within it. http://blackgop.ning.com/ However, that said I don't think that race should matter should it? To truly be above racism we need to judge a person based on their character and political beliefs, not their race.
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2012-11-12, 11:30 | Link #3158 | |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
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The GOP's media cocoon
http://www.politico.com/news/stories...704.html?hp=f1 Quote:
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2012-11-12, 12:21 | Link #3159 | |
Me at work
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Just look at the UK,it's the union of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland,those are four different cultures all with strong national identities,they even compete against each other at sporting events like the soccer world cup. Belgium is the federal alliance of two different regions that don't speak the same language. Italy was a collection of different states for centuries until it was unified in the 19th century, but strong regional identity is still present. Spain has strong regional identities and different languages as well,go to Barcelona and you'll hear plenty of people speak Catalan. I'll stop there for the examples but my point is that some european countries are hard enough to govern as is (belgium recently stayed 541 days without a formal government for example) that trying to add another layer is just asking for too much. Just the fact there hasn't been a war between western european countries for nearly 70 years now is already quite an achievement in itself since these are countries that spent centuries fighting each other routinely.
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2012-11-12, 12:59 | Link #3160 | ||
formerly ogon bat
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Mexico
Age: 53
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