(L) Moso Dairinin (Paranoia agent)

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by wsheit

alright, so I just finished watching this, and it seems it may have committed the crime that I was worried it would commit. It may have committed what I call the "Lain Sin." Lain put together a whole bunch of very weird circumstances and then tried to explain them all away with a reasonably simple answer. Certain detail simply weren't addressed at all. In other words, the series was a jigsaw puzzle with extra pieces. I all for media/anime that presents differing messages and lets the viewer decide on them. I DO however think that the details of an anime should fit together well. I hate movies such as Mullholland Drive, where certain parts of the plot simply have no rational explanation- even when the supernatural is accounted for. Now, I loved the anime up to the very end, and I loved most aspects of the end, too. However:

Spoiler:

My problem is that there doesn't seem to be a reasonably defendable explanation for the final "Dream Confession". How the heck have RPG's, Maniwa, and the sage fit into all of this? To what extent is the story cyclical?

If somebody comes up with a solid explanation for this part, then I can reconsider. Otherwise, I can't quite put this among my top, say, 5-7 animes. Like I said, I loved most of it......but I hate when a story promises a fantastic ending, makes a mess, and then (falsely) claims the fantastic ending is somewhere in the rubble. If there is a true ending to discern, then so be it- but so far as I can tell, the incredibly high level of ambiguity is unsatisfying.

And don't think I don't like ambiguity at all. I love movies where ambiguity is used carefully as a spice- Twelve Monkeys is a great example. Ambiguity, however, should not be the key ingredient- as it appears to be here.

I don't know, maybe I'm missing a few big plot keys here.....has anybody thought of anythin new?

well, actually it depends on how you interpret the whole series... what do you think the entire series is? see my previous posts, do you think

Spoiler:

it's the fiction world invading the real world through Shounen Bat and Maromi, OR it's just various people driven insane by society and resulted in mass hysteria?

I think if you want to take this series for a serious storyline, then you'll be disappointed. It's mostly a joke, a caricature, a mockery at our society and our way of thinking, it makes fun of logical reasoning and rules of society, it even makes fun of itself. It feels a bit like something of expressionism IMO. Lain is serious, while you could say that Paranoia Agent is... a paranoia in itself I guess...

[wsheit]

Originally Posted by dreamless

well, actually it depends on how you interpret the whole series... what do you think the entire series is? see my previous posts, do you think

Spoiler:

it's the fiction world invading the real world through Shounen Bat and Maromi, OR it's just various people driven insane by society and resulted in mass hysteria?

I think if you want to take this series for a serious storyline, then you'll be disappointed. It's mostly a joke, a caricature, a mockery at our society and our way of thinking, it makes fun of logical reasoning and rules of society, it even makes fun of itself. It feels a bit like something of expressionism IMO. Lain is serious, while you could say that Paranoia Agent is... a paranoia in itself I guess...

Perhaps, then, it was my expectations that were most at fault. I love stories that fit together like perfect clockwork and yet still manage to hide their true nature from the viewer. Memento would be an example.

So if I throw my previous comment out the window, I can say that this was a damn good anime- not quite a favorite, but certainly well-executed. (And I love the ending theme.) If I take that stance, though, I think I must argue that the episodes almost work best by themselves. In fact, some of my favorite episodes (8 and 9) had the least amount of attachment to the main plot. WELL worth the watch, nuff said.

[hunterx]

Originally Posted by wsheit

alright, so I just finished watching this, and it seems it may have committed the crime that I was worried it would commit. It may have committed what I call the "Lain Sin." Lain put together a whole bunch of very weird circumstances and then tried to explain them all away with a reasonably simple answer. Certain detail simply weren't addressed at all. In other words, the series was a jigsaw puzzle with extra pieces. I all for media/anime that presents differing messages and lets the viewer decide on them. I DO however think that the details of an anime should fit together well. I hate movies such as Mullholland Drive, where certain parts of the plot simply have no rational explanation- even when the supernatural is accounted for. Now, I loved the anime up to the very end, and I loved most aspects of the end, too. However:

Spoiler:

My problem is that there doesn't seem to be a reasonably defendable explanation for the final "Dream Confession". How the heck have RPG's, Maniwa, and the sage fit into all of this? To what extent is the story cyclical?

If somebody comes up with a solid explanation for this part, then I can reconsider. Otherwise, I can't quite put this among my top, say, 5-7 animes. Like I said, I loved most of it......but I hate when a story promises a fantastic ending, makes a mess, and then (falsely) claims the fantastic ending is somewhere in the rubble. If there is a true ending to discern, then so be it- but so far as I can tell, the incredibly high level of ambiguity is unsatisfying.

And don't think I don't like ambiguity at all. I love movies where ambiguity is used carefully as a spice- Twelve Monkeys is a great example. Ambiguity, however, should not be the key ingredient- as it appears to be here.

I don't know, maybe I'm missing a few big plot keys here.....has anybody thought of anythin new?

I think PA has no basis in reality, rather it tells a simple story about avoiding reality in the most unrealistic manner. In the end there was no need to fill the plot holes considering how clear the ending to the mystery was.

[s'my]

Heh heh heh ... happy otaku here ... my beautiful PA R1 DVD has arrived and I'm cackling like a loon along with the OP.
The first thing I checked out was the interview with Satoshi Kon (conducted by psychologist Dr Tamaki Saito).

Spoiler:

This interview was broadcast on Wowow on Nov 30, 2003, and is surprisingly spoilerific! Satoshi Kon discusses the "mousou" of the series title, how the term gives the idea of one 'actively making (oneself) delusional', and how the characters are all under some kind of stress. He expands further on this concept by bringing up the example of psychosomatic illness - kids who dread going to school developing abdominal pain.
Runpsicat has also posted something to that effect before on the Akraze forums, and that Japanese viewers knew right from the outset that Tsukiko was Shonen Bat's "creator-parent".

Having gone through the series by refusing to look at 'spoilers' wherever possible, I wonder now how much of the wtf experience would have been changed had I the same knowledge as the Japanese viewers. Certainly a great deal of fun was in trying to figure out who/what on earth Shonen Bat was.
At the end of the day, though some would say the message was simple, it was undeniably beautifully executed, and even if I'd known the "true" message beforehand, Paranoia Agent would still remain one of the greatest anime trips I've ever taken.

[shino bugged]

yo i have a ? for anyone who watched episode 8

Spoiler:

Those three characters who were trying to kill themselves were arleady dead right ! they were ghosts!!!!!!!

[s'my]

Ah yes, episode 8, one of my if not the favourite episode in this series.

Spoiler for episode 8:

Yes, it was a great twist to find out that these 3 pp who were trying to commit suicide were actually already dead. This has actually been discussed at length, you might want to read from~ page 6 of this thread

[shino bugged]

Originally Posted by s'my

Ah yes, episode 8, one of my if not the favourite episode in this series.

Spoiler for episode 8:

Yes, it was a great twist to find out that these 3 pp who were trying to commit suicide were actually already dead. This has actually been discussed at length, you might want to read from~ page 6 of this thread

cool , thanks i didn't read all the thread pages

[Trillster]

Hah, about time this thread got revived, methinks...

I'm relatively new to anime The power of broadband interweb has brought marvellous gems such as Samurai Champloo, Eva and Paranoia Agent into my home, and for that I'm eternally grateful.

I've been searching for ages for people to discuss this show with, and now I discover that all discussions ended well over a year ago! Ah, well. Reading through the backlog reaffirmed a lot of my ideas about the show. I watched the whole series over a relatively short time frame, so it was interesting to note how people following the series hypothesised about its ending.

What grabbed me about PA was how such a richly detailed and varied set of character studies could hold such a fine overall narrative together so well. The adjectives I'm using are poor, but you all know what I mean! From the moment the opening titles rolled, you knew you'd got into something a little out of the ordinary. Ditto the end titles and the delightfully cryptic end titles (to which I say, Maniwa breaks the circle, but doesn't he also form the question mark?) and Dream Confessions (the sage was without doubt my favourite character, he's responsible for making "sate" my favourite Japanese word, "temae" is now a close second if anyone can confirm this, does it actually translate as "now"?)

The evolution of Shounen Bat as an urban legend was thoroughly mesmerizing. I was in turns intrigued, shocked, baffled, afraid, delighted and appalled. Even when I thought I knew what Shounen Bat represented, I couldn't begin to concieve how it all would end. Things like the suicide trio already being dead totally slipped past me (though I was creeped out by the moment with the camera girls, I couldn't piece together an explanation at the time). Maniwa's seemingly inexplicable descent into madness also confused me. Yet despite not fully comprehending all the details, I felt that they weren't so important as the work in its entirety - a parable on the perils of escapism in modern society. Unflinching, hypnotic, with a dark sense of humour and an eye for irony. Paranoia Agent is one of my all time favourite shows. A latter day Twin Peaks, not just for otaku. I can't wait to hear the english dub!


Sate

[Happy_Chip]

Hi, in reviewing the above posts, this was kind of touched on, and there may not be an answer to this, but ...

Spoiler for ending??:

what in the world was the flood of black gunk that was flowing everywhere? What was this supposed to represent?

[Shabazza]

Originally Posted by Happy_Chip

Spoiler for ending??:

what in the world was the flood of black gunk that was flowing everywhere? What was this supposed to represent?

Spoiler for Spoiler:

I think it represents Paranoia itself.
If you want it totally objective without any personal impressions: You saw how Shounen Bat got stronger in the last few episodes? Well, that black stuff is probably the new form "he" took.

[Happy_Chip]

Originally Posted by Shabazza

Spoiler for Spoiler:

I think it represents Paranoia itself.
If you want it totally objective without any personal impressions: You saw how Shounen Bat got stronger in the last few episodes? Well, that black stuff is probably the new form "he" took.

thanks for the insight. I think it's safe to say, that most of what is going on in the show

Spoiler for insight:

isn't meant to be literal, these are events that are happening in people's minds, and there is isn't really an external absolute reality, but what is presented is each person's unique universe they've created in their own mind.

(Or something like that. At least, that much I could grasp, I think it became clear early on that Shonen Bat wasn't 'real', or even if had been a real person on those early episodes - like the kid that got arrested - the real Shonen Bat was a figment of people's deranged minds).

So ... I think your insight makes sense. I can't take it literally that a black flood is pouring over the nation, but, with your comment in mind and the final ending, that people are being overwhelmed with their own paranoia. That would make sense.

I've also read that PA is some kind of metaphor for the atomic bombing of Japan, that the Japanese nation in WWII did not take responsibility for what they did and that the atom bomb was in a sense, a national example of each episode - someone is in a bad situation of their own making, they can't confront it, and their getting hit by Shonen Bat it allowed them to solve their dilemma without having to take responsibility for the situation they were in. And there's a big mushroom cloud in the opening credits ...

Thoughts?

[katel]

Originally Posted by Happy_Chip

thanks for the insight. I think it's safe to say, that most of what is going on in the show

Spoiler for insight:

isn't meant to be literal, these are events that are happening in people's minds, and there is isn't really an external absolute reality, but what is presented is each person's unique universe they've created in their own mind.

(Or something like that. At least, that much I could grasp, I think it became clear early on that Shonen Bat wasn't 'real', or even if had been a real person on those early episodes - like the kid that got arrested - the real Shonen Bat was a figment of people's deranged minds).

So ... I think your insight makes sense. I can't take it literally that a black flood is pouring over the nation, but, with your comment in mind and the final ending, that people are being overwhelmed with their own paranoia. That would make sense.

I've also read that PA is some kind of metaphor for the atomic bombing of Japan, that the Japanese nation in WWII did not take responsibility for what they did and that the atom bomb was in a sense, a national example of each episode - someone is in a bad situation of their own making, they can't confront it, and their getting hit by Shonen Bat it allowed them to solve their dilemma without having to take responsibility for the situation they were in. And there's a big mushroom cloud in the opening credits ...

Thoughts?

ww2? this show has nothing to do with it. paranoia agent doesnt fit anime universe. it makes you think. no ecchi no mecha!

[Guido]

To me Paranoia Agent was the very first anime series which challenged my perception about the current state of society.

If you take it seriously, it forces you think through what's really going on with the people and the society.

Should we just take the pressure, the rush, the insults, and the sh** of everyday in order to conform with what the general populace dictates is normal and in the norm?

Or should we just throw everything to the drain and run away from whatever causes us anguish, pain, and/or pressure?

Shounen Bat was the fear and insecurities of the people who haunted back at them quite literally.

What I loved most, above everything else, was a particular scene in the anime's OP which made quite an impact on me.
Detective Akari standing at the top of the Tokyo Tower with the mushroom cloud on the background, exploding in the middle of a city during a sunny day.

And, definitely, the OP song is one of the best pieces of music I've ever heard. To me represents a very cheerful song about the end of the world.

Hey, if the world's going to end one of these days better smile, relax at home, or do something you have desired through your lifetime, and, finally, laugh like crazy.
Instead of the other scenario, fighting frightened for your life and going nuts in anguish.

Do as Sagi and the rest of the cast does in the OP, laugh like there's no tomorrow.

[Archon_Wing]

I remember watching this on Adult Swim and was impressed on how it handled societal issues. It was pretty dark and crazy too.

Anyhow, I managed to finish it and liked it though the ending was really wtf. It's interesting how hard it is to live with guilt sometimes. It's so much easier to place the blame on someone or something. But at the same time, we beat each ourselves too much over guilt as well and try to hide from it. As for the war reference, well, I've never seen an anime approach that issue so boldly. Yea, that's definitely an issue that's tough to handle.

Lies and delusions; people would rather just put the problem away. We'd rather just bury our past sins. Humans have always been creating lil sluggers throughout history-- something or someone we can unite in placing them blame on. If everyone can believe a lie, than it becomes truth. But it sometimes seeps up and drowns us all. It's a vicious cycle that will probably continue on for a very long time. But hey, someone's gotta try and fight against it, even if everyone thinks he/she is crazy.

So props to Paranoia Agent for willing to be the crazy one to deliver the message.

[ellifeedn]

Something odd happened when I wanted to watch this series. The day I was set to start it was the day Satoshi Kon died. I don't know whether to take that as a sign or just a coincidence. Either way, it freaked me out enough to put off watching it.

[drobertbaker]

さよなら今敏さん
ご冥福を祈ります
Thanks for the memories
See You Space Cowboy