Spice and Wolf II - Episode 12 (END) Discussion / Poll

[Vexx]

Aye, I'm actually enjoying the manga more than the anime or the light novels... but its just going to be a LONG haul with the story pace in the manga.

[incube]

Originally Posted by bbee

You don't mention, however, the insanely convoluted ways that they choose to involve Horo in Lawrence's crazy dealings. Or the fact that pretty much all the drama would be deflated with some more communication between Horo and Lawrence (the drama at the end of the pyrite arc falls apart if Horo had talked). Oh, and the standard anime trapping of brickwall male lead paired with tsundere female.

This isnt some action packed fantasy/supernatural/dramaromance anime but a slow-paced "feel good" romance between a traveling merchant and a fox deity...
And for a god-human romance i think the drama was pretty good and realistic. You cant expect them to just have a quick chat about it dont you?

Originally Posted by bbee

Oh, and the standard anime trapping of brickwall male lead paired with tsundere female.

Although Lawrence isnt the "standard" playboy, you cant compare him with the useless, annoying dull protagonists from those romance/harem animes... He manages pretty well around girls and is as much caring and attentive as you can expect from a guy with Horo as possible... What he struggles sometimes is with the idea that Horo isnt just any other girl but a fox goddess... couple hundred years older than him and inmortal too >.< It should make anyone nervous and a bit stupid.

And Horo doesnt fall under the tsundere category either... most of the times she is just teasing Lawrence. She doesnt act differently when they are alone or with other ppl... i mean you cant call those few love-love moments the "personality change" of the typical tsundere girl.

Originally Posted by bbee

I can predict right now without having read the novel that S3 will feature even more insane and unlikely ways for Lawrence's personal and economic intrerests to combine in an effort to center the drama around the relationship with Horo.

Well it is obvious that their everyday life would have some economic and political issues involved... after all Lawrence is a merchant and Horo is a fox "deity" that the church would gladly catch. The interesting and fun part of this series are those situations they get involved and how they come out of them.

Originally Posted by bbee

.....Your review is a very good analysis of the part of S&W that makes it enjoyable: the organic character growth, their familiar banter, slice-of-life setting, well rounded side characters, and the slowly simmering romance......
......What I will say for the show, is that it has some amazingly well-written, aptly placed and subtle dialogue, which I'm sure is pulled straight from the novel. Season 2 was actually more enjoyable for me than the first, due to these character interactions. Oh, and the OP is probably the best of the year......

It wasnt that bad (?) *.*

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by incube

And Horo doesnt fall under the tsundere category either... most of the times she is just teasing Lawrence. She doesnt act differently when they are alone or with other ppl... i mean you cant call those few love-love moments the "personality change" of the typical tsundere girl.

Actually she does act like tsudere but the different kind than lets say Louise or Shana. Horo follows the old type tsundere character where teasing and flirting was also the way to mask ones insecurities, rather than just plain denying the feelings and masking them with violence.

Many people forget that the tsunderes that we are used to see lately are not the only tsundere types.

Remember Madoka from Kimagure Orange Road, she is counted as a tsundere, despite being different from moefied new versions like Louise and Shana.

Horo follows the classical (old) tsundere type rather closely. Similar to Sheryl from Macross Frontier. Its just that authors return back to the old type of tsundere rather than going with moe new one.

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Horo follows the classical (old) tsundere type rather closely. Similar to Sheryl from Macross Frontier. Its just that authors return back to the old type of tsundere rather than going with moe new one.

That's true, I'd say she's a pretty much a smirk-type tsundere. It's often subdued because she hides her true emotions well, and/or forces a mood change before it becomes obvious. It becomes much easier to tell when she's jealous or when she gets carried away.

[kamikazex]

loved the ending alot more than season 1's. hopefully season 3 someday. and yeah gj lawrance for making the right choice

[BashZeStampeedo]

Whew, SFW finally released their subs of episode 12. I am not sure who's subs I prefer the most this season, but SFW or Mazui get my vote. As I've said, Frostii's take on Lawrence seems cold and uncertain, and it hurts his character (and thus the season, given that it was about his character's growth). Seeing Lawrence as confident and certain in the end is what made this rollercoaster of a season worth watching for me.

[darknile]

I finally got around ot watching this episode. Pretty much because I don't like Mazui, or Frostii's subs and I only wait for Subsf*ckingwhere release (much better translation). This episode was beautiful IMO.

Favorite scenes were Lawrence's confession, Horo' crying (c'mon you can't resist THAT), the "kiss", and finally that fantastic Horo frayed tail bush! Seeing her that frazzled was AWSOME. Lawrence did wail a little bit on Abe, but since she's a girl he went kinda easy on her.

OMG... a 3rd season would be great, but since Japan's anime producer's don't get a lot of financial support and have to rely on DVD sales.... if only they had a better support system like what we have in the US. Shows get money from advertisers that want to hawk their goods and they pay the TV companies. But the drawback is the TV companies base their programs on ratings only. If a show doesn't bring in enough viewership then the advertisers don't pay as much, and shows get cancelled.

[Kagami~n]

Originally Posted by incube

This isnt some action packed fantasy/supernatural/dramaromance anime but a slow-paced "feel good" romance between a traveling merchant and a wolf deity...

Come now, are there insufficient foxgirls out there already, that we need to deny Horo her species?

[wandering-dreamer]

I thought it was stated from the beginning that Horo was a wolf, not a fox, she even looks more like a wolf than a fox in "dog form." It's only the coloring in her human form that seems to throw people off.

[BashZeStampeedo]

I've never really understood why that is. Are wolves all supposed to be one uniform color? I've seen Eurasian wolves that are brownish orange.. even the Wikipedia images are like that.

[Ansalem]

Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo

I've never really understood why that is. Are wolves all supposed to be one uniform color? I've seen Eurasian wolves that are brownish orange.. even the Wikipedia images are like that.

Grey wolves can be pretty much any color a dog can be. Many are grey, hence the name, but there can also be white, black, brown, and red furred wolves, along with mixed colored wolves. I think the main thing is that, especially in animated form, wolves are very often depicted as grey, and foxes are almost always orange with with the white end to their tail. I can understand the confusion a tiny bit, but as wandering-dreamer pointed out, they explicitly tell us Horo is a wolf in the first episode, and I think a count of the times ookami is said in the series would be pretty high, so no one should really get confused.

[gaffer7]

Hmm, tbh I don't think I enjoyed this series as much as I could have, it was great to see some HoroxLawrence action at the end and to see their relationship progressing as the season continued, but I dunno, the ending left me feeling a little empty, Lawrence falling flat and all. At least there'll undoubtably be a third season sometime, I need more Spice and Wolf action, one of my top anime in terms of mood and setting! HoroxLawrence is still one of my favourite couples out there, looking forward to more development!

[Arashi500]

There really aren't any different species of wolves. There ARE sub-species and breeds, although they are almost exactly the same except for usual fur color and enviroment. Artic wolves can be pitch black, red or white, but white is the most common. Gray/timber wolves follow the same guideline. The changes of social structure, intellect, size, and such also rarely vary.

[kenshin-dono]

ok.. i just finally finished going through all 12 epps watching SFW, Mazui and frostiis subs back to back to determine which one im going to keep >_< took forever. I think mazuiis who im keeping for most, i need to go over my notes for the firsst several episodes, but mazui was overall better in most epps (except for 9 they kinda jacked up the scene in the alley i may keep sfw's version for that one)

one thing they all had kinda screwy though is the scene near the end of 12. What the hell does Abe wisper into lawrences ear? Can anyone kinda familiar with japanese fill me in? that scene never made any sense to me and all 3 subs are different its at 16:35 or so

Mazui she says 'i'm hoping'
sfw says 'I had high hopes for you'
frotii says 'because i had my expectations'

none of those make too much sense what does she actually say here? hopefully someone can fill me in because id rather just keep the mazui sub but that one line seems off. So anyone who has some basic japanese that can play that line and say wtf she is saying?

hopefully someone can clear this up because this has been seriously bugging me since i finished the show a while back


I probably have to wait for someone to actually know what she says exactly The question is why is she going down the crazy path of profit over everything even after she saw it destroy the guy that bought her.. the answer is... whatever she said. All them revolve around her hoping for something.. WHAT? it makes no sense to me i thought one of the subs would make sense when i compared all 3 but no luck

itd probably be best to rip the dialog and post it in a section here or somewhere else but im not sure what program to use for that hopefully someone here can help me out

*edit* got a clip of the scene with a crappy free ripping program but it got the audio so thats what matters*
http://home.comcast.net/~kenshindono/spicewolfscene.avi

[Ansalem]

Originally Posted by kenshin-dono

one thing they all had kinda screwy though is the scene near the end of 12. What the hell does Abe wisper into lawrences ear? Can anyone kinda familiar with japanese fill me in? that scene never made any sense to me and all 3 subs are different its at 16:35 or so

Mazui she says 'i'm hoping'
sfw says 'I had high hopes for you'
frotii says 'because i had my expectations'

none of those make too much sense what does she actually say here? hopefully someone can fill me in because id rather just keep the mazui sub but that one line seems off. So anyone who has some basic japanese that can play that line and say wtf she is saying?

All of these are pretty much correct translations. She says "期待しているからだ。" or "kitai shite iru kara da."
Kitai means "expectation" or "hope," shite iru is the present progressive of "to do," kara means "because," and da is a copula. So..."Because I am hoping/expecting." So I'd say the mazui translation is the most literal. In Japanese, subject and direct objects are often left off to be inferred. I don't know if that helps you much, but that's what she said.

[kenshin-dono]

so basically she is just saying because i am hoping.. that still makes the scene quite confusing lol. Is the SFW translation adding meaning that isn't there, becaus if shes saying she had hopes for him that kinda makes a little sense. But the way you described it it sounds like maybe it really is her just saying she was hoping for... *blank* >_<

*edit* err someone else told me that she was explaining that she wants to have a baby or something and thats why shes working so hard to get money o_O that seems way off the wall, but maybe the 'i am expecting' thing fits into that? Still theres no indication of that anywhere else that im aware of

[FTGT]

Originally Posted by kenshin-dono

...
*edit* err someone else told me that she was explaining that she wants to have a baby or something and thats why shes working so hard to get money o_O that seems way off the wall, but maybe the 'i am expecting' thing fits into that? Still theres no indication of that anywhere else that im aware of

I wouldnt go that far. As I see it, she just hopes for a good outcome. For a "happy end" or something like that. She knows that greed and the focus on making money often leads to a dangerous life, misfortune and an early death. But nevertheless she hopes and longs for the same as every person that wants to become rich:
Freedom, independence and a carefree life. Thats how I see it.

[BashZeStampeedo]

Originally Posted by FTGT

I wouldnt go that far. As I see it, she just hopes for a good outcome. For a "happy end" or something like that. She knows that greed and the focus on making money often leads to a dangerous life, misfortune and an early death. But nevertheless she hopes and longs for the same as every person that wants to become rich:
Freedom, independence and a carefree life. Thats how I see it.

I got the same impression. Abe knew that what she was doing was not noble or anything, and she sort of hated herself for it. But she knew no other way to live. She was hoping that it would all work out in the end, despite her acting like her late husband, because all she had left was hope.

I also got the impression that once she realized how pathetically alike her and Lawrence really were, she couldn't bring herself to ruin him. That's why she gave him the deed to the inn and spared his life, despite running off with his money out of greed (or, since Abe apparently didn't need the money, it could also be presumed that she *wants* to be chased.. although that's stretching it).

[kenshin-dono]

if thats the case then she should have said something like 'im hoping for a better tomorow' or something along those lines.. just 'hoping...' makes no real sense and i dont really get the happy look at the end or Lawrences smiling reaction... it just makes no sense. She saw what that kind of greed leads people to, why would she go down the same path and just 'hope' it will turn out alright?

i think were all missing something

i guess thats just gonna stay as a confusing mar at the end of the story

i also kinda wondered what happened to the old man.. did abe kill him or was he waiting on the boat for her *shrug* dunno. The very end was also a bit strange, the dialog with horo and where they were walking to made it seem like they were going back after Abe to get their money back. That would be cool and i hope we see whats up with taht if they do ever make a 3rd season.. although its not looking so hot. I guess DVD sales havent been so hot

side note btw that i just found, a Horo workout vid! lol
http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/1...ing-with-horo/

man hope our dvds come with that. I guess season 1s almost here, full box set on release it looks like, awesome. Also looks like they went with Holo instead of Horo. I guess thats the 'right' way but i really like Horo better

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by kenshin-dono

if thats the case then she should have said something like 'im hoping for a better tomorow' or something along those lines.. just 'hoping...' makes no real sense and i dont really get the happy look at the end or Lawrences smiling reaction... it just makes no sense. She saw what that kind of greed leads people to, why would she go down the same path and just 'hope' it will turn out alright?

She didn't say more either because it's the Japanese way, or because she was hoping Lawrence would understand from that little - which he did. They both felt less alone.

And she's hoping against hope. She knows that despite how much money he had, her husband ended up just wanting more. Never really happy. She's hoping she won't be like him. Why? No reason. She's hoping against hope. It probably says something deep and touching about the human condition and progress, but whatever.