AnimeSuki Forums

Destined_Fate · 2013-05-03, 17:39

Or that pilots get better or circumstances allow them to have a chance.

Let's look at ZZ.

That girl in the Gelgog in the desert set a trap and was a veteran pilot. Despite her mecha being far inferior to the MK.II, Zeta, Hyaku Shiki, and part of the ZZ she was able to put up a hella of a fight because the skill difference was that huge and the kids weren't used to piloting all that well yet.

It doesn't make the mecha she fought weaker or hers strong, it all just came down to skill which made a huge difference.

Aquaman OS · 2013-05-03, 18:12

It's worth noting those 3 Murasame pilots that took down Sting, survived the series (unlike the Astray girls). And were consitantly shown to be racking up kills. They were even apparantly the only 3 of that platoon to make it to AA with their Murasame's operational (meaning they avoided being killed by Shinn or disabled by Kira in 28), and the only 3 that survived their run in with Shinn during the battle for Orb.

So yeah, those guys are established to be pretty good.

Plus they had Murasame's arguably the best of the Destiny grunts.

Skye629 · 2013-05-03, 18:52

Point of all above comments:

GRUNT SUITS FTW

S.Freedom · 2013-05-03, 20:10

The thing to remember about the astray girls is that they where test pilots not trained combat pilots. Plus it's entirely possibly that the Murasame pilots are survivors of the first war. Nor does it take into account the murasame pilots used teamwork against Sting while the astray girls used little to no teamwork.

As for best grunt unit. I'd say the Zaku was the best because of it's versatility. It would've been nice if we had gotten to see Yzak, Dearka, and Shiho using Zaku's.

Aquaman OS · 2013-05-03, 21:24

I'd vote Zaku the worst actually. No atmospheric flight without those easily destroyed flight platforms that Minerva didn't even seem to have in stock. Meanwhile Windam can equip jetpacks, while Murasame's have a flight mode built in, complete with a beam cannon as well.

S.Freedom · 2013-05-03, 22:27

The thing is neither the Murasame or Windam is a dedicated flight model while the Babi is. And it's more heavily armed than either of those units. That's not even considering the Gouf either.

Though to be honest I just don't like how the Murasame looks. So I'm some what biased against it.

kaito-kid · 2013-05-03, 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

It's a Gundam. >_>

This doesn't really mean anything in CE.
The Chaos, Abyss and Gaia are only slightly better then the Zaku models. The biggest deference being the PS armor, more advanced weaponry and some experimental technologies.. superior pilots in a Zaku wil be able to beat any of the 2nd stage mobile suits. Except maybe the Impulse (and to a lesser degree, the Saviour) those two seem to be more 'special'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

The druggies/sleep podlings were trained to be killer machines but they lack experience and the drive that pushed the originals who were tortured unless they gave results.

Torturing them did not make them better pilots. perhaps it made them more aggressive but not better pilots.

And again, the first generation of human CPU's also had no real experience on the battlefield and yet they out skilled Kira on several occasions in Seed.

Obelisk ze Tormentor · 2013-05-03, 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

The thing is neither the Murasame or Windam is a dedicated flight model while the Babi is. And it's more heavily armed than either of those units. That's not even considering the Gouf either.

Though to be honest I just don't like how the Murasame looks. So I'm some what biased against it.

Umm...I don’t know where you get this, but Musarame is dedicated for flight. They can fly, maneuver and hover in MS mode and they can fly faster in MA mode. Murasame is as dedicated for flight as Saviour, Chaos, DINN or Babi.

So yeah, maybe your dislike toward Murasame made you a bit biased.

S.Freedom · 2013-05-03, 23:23

Alright you got me there Obelisk..

It just looks awkward in comparison to the Savior for example. It's like the mecha designer mashed a fighter jet with the astray and hoped for the best. I'd hoped Orb would continue the Astray line with a flight capable model that didn't include the shrike rotor.

Aquaman OS · 2013-05-04, 01:24

The Murasame basically IS an Astray though. It's the next unit in the MP Astray line essentially.

Paladinoras · 2013-05-04, 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

And again, the first generation of human CPU's also had no real experience on the battlefield and yet they out skilled Kira on several occasions in Seed.

Collectively yeah, I don't think individually they could've held up against Kira. Kira did fine against each one of them just that they kept ganging up on him (as they should).

When Athrun came to the fold, it was obvious though that the two were more than an equal match against the Druggies.

And for ridiculously powered up Astrays you can always check out Lowe's suits. Or any suit in the eponymous Astray series really.

kaito-kid · 2013-05-04, 06:33

Even individually they were more of a threat then the 2nd generation ones. My point being that the 1st gen human CPU's were better pilots. and that somehow torturing the 2nd generation was not going to make them any better.

S.Freedom · 2013-05-04, 09:26

Each version of the extended had their positives and negatives. The first stage where better pilots at the cost of controllability, while the second had better controllability at the cost of piloting skill.

Any possible third stage would likely combine the best aspects of both. Meaning third stage extended's would have the first stages piloting skill, while also having the seconds controllability. Which under the right conditions would be interesting to see imo.

Paladinoras · 2013-05-04, 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

Even individually they were more of a threat then the 2nd generation ones. My point being that the 1st gen human CPU's were better pilots. and that somehow torturing the 2nd generation was not going to make them any better.

Oh yeah, I wasn't disputing that point. The 2nd gen was designed around better survivability, they could think for themselves and obey orders (or at the very least, not shoot at each other), while the first gen druggies were basically human attack dogs. They were berserkers, basically.

Theoretically 3 less-skilled people working together would be more optimal than 3 better-skilled people shooting at each other, but I guess that's not the case. Honestly it was more of bad writing from the Destiny writers, early on Auel, Sting, and Stellar could at least keep up with Shinn, but when Kira showed up they turned to putty.

Granted, Freedom outclassed all of their suits more than the Calamity/Raider/Forbidden, but still.

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

Any possible third stage would likely combine the best aspects of both. Meaning third stage extended's would have the first stages piloting skill, while also having the seconds controllability. Which under the right conditions would be interesting to see imo.

Unlikely. The nature of the drugs itself I think prevents that from ever happening, they never really elaborated on the way it works, but I'm pretty sure that they reduced the dosage or something for the second generation so that they can retain some of their brain functions, while the first gen was pretty much given enough so that they don't have to think and just increase aggression.

Destined_Fate · 2013-05-04, 11:09

A lot of things turned to putty when Kira showed up but we are best not getting back into the reasoning behind that again.

Sniff... Destiny started so great and had amazing potential with Shinn and it was squandered!

Gundamx · 2013-05-04, 12:18

Quote:

Theoretically 3 less-skilled people working together would be more optimal than 3 better-skilled people shooting at each other, but I guess that's not the case. Honestly it was more of bad writing from the Destiny writers, early on Auel, Sting, and Stellar could at least keep up with Shinn, but when Kira showed up they turned to putty.

technically, they need to remove them fast so they can have Kira as main enemy
(Anime from Shine pov)

before they change their mind(again) and have Shin as main enemy
(Anime from Kira pov)

Destined_Fate · 2013-05-04, 13:18

Shinn later on also had no trouble with them either. He improved but Auel, Sting, and Stellar kinda remained at their fighting levels from start to finish. Sting and Stellar just got more "Crazy" put in. Lunamaria also improved quite a bit as well and the Destroy, which was super destructive, was soon rendered pointless with the Dsetiny, Legend, and Impulse taking out a bunch of them with no effort at all due to Shinn's strategy.

Aquaman OS · 2013-05-04, 15:34

Shinn was still struggling against Auel in their final encounter. Although he did eventually kill him by shielding himself with his pack and tossing the Javelin, he never managed to get to the point where he could fly up and one hit kill them Kira style, for him or any of the Extendeds.

Of course he never really managed to get to that level against any of the other Gundams. Even when he destroyed Freedom it was a fast paced battle with little margin for error that he had to work for.

monster · 2013-05-04, 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

Honestly it was more of bad writing from the Destiny writers, early on Auel, Sting, and Stellar could at least keep up with Shinn, but when Kira showed up they turned to putty.

Granted, Freedom outclassed all of their suits more than the Calamity/Raider/Forbidden, but still.

As I said before, this has more to do with their mobile suits being too limited on Earth due to their specializations.

There's no "but still" about it. The Abyss and the Gaia were mostly stuck on water and land respectively while the Chaos couldn't even use its weapon pods.

Let's not underestimate the fact that the Biological CPUs were able to team up against the Freedom and that Kira was even more experienced and also in a better mental state in Destiny than in SEED.

For another example of the advantage of teaming up: Athrun and Yzak could team up against Sting in Zakus but Athrun couldn't do as much alone against Sting with the Saviour.

Aquaman OS · 2013-05-04, 17:08

Actually Sting could use his weapon pods on earth. He rarely did, but he was shown doing it at least once. He's also the only Extended to notably improve as he's able to actually match Kira during the Berlin battle, until the Murasame's cut him off, despite Kira one shotting him a few episodes prior.

As for Athrun being able to be more effective with the Zaku then Savior, I chalk that up to his skill wavering when he's not confident in what he's doing. With the Zaku he was trying to save the Earth from rementants of his father's ideals, so obvious he was totally focused and motivated.

But by the time he's using Savior in combat he just found out Orb allied with EA and Kira and Cagalli had bailed from Orb, so his plan of rejoining Zaft to help them just went up in smoke. He's still fairly effective in the first two battles regardless(shooting down some Windams, backing Sting into a corner and saving Shinn once, and taking out the mobile armor), but once he actually starts coming into conflict with Orb and Kira his skill plummets. Not to mention that nobody in Zaft really seems to like him all that much.

Once he's back in Orb with the knowledge that Durandal set him up and can't be trusted so Kira was correct not to trust him, his skill rises, because he's with his buddies again that like and forgave him, and he believes Durandal's Zaft is in the wrong.

2013-05-04, 06:33	Link #6952
kaito-kid As I make you stop, think Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Europe - The Netherlands Age: 34	Even individually they were more of a threat then the 2nd generation ones. My point being that the 1st gen human CPU's were better pilots. and that somehow torturing the 2nd generation was not going to make them any better. __________________

2013-05-03, 17:39	Link #6941
Destined_Fate Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."	Or that pilots get better or circumstances allow them to have a chance. Let's look at ZZ. That girl in the Gelgog in the desert set a trap and was a veteran pilot. Despite her mecha being far inferior to the MK.II, Zeta, Hyaku Shiki, and part of the ZZ she was able to put up a hella of a fight because the skill difference was that huge and the kids weren't used to piloting all that well yet. It doesn't make the mecha she fought weaker or hers strong, it all just came down to skill which made a huge difference.

2013-05-03, 18:12	Link #6942
Aquaman OS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	It's worth noting those 3 Murasame pilots that took down Sting, survived the series (unlike the Astray girls). And were consitantly shown to be racking up kills. They were even apparantly the only 3 of that platoon to make it to AA with their Murasame's operational (meaning they avoided being killed by Shinn or disabled by Kira in 28), and the only 3 that survived their run in with Shinn during the battle for Orb. So yeah, those guys are established to be pretty good. Plus they had Murasame's arguably the best of the Destiny grunts.

2013-05-03, 18:52	Link #6943
Skye629 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011	Point of all above comments: GRUNT SUITS FTW

2013-05-03, 20:10	Link #6944
S.Freedom Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: On the edge of insanity Age: 44	The thing to remember about the astray girls is that they where test pilots not trained combat pilots. Plus it's entirely possibly that the Murasame pilots are survivors of the first war. Nor does it take into account the murasame pilots used teamwork against Sting while the astray girls used little to no teamwork. As for best grunt unit. I'd say the Zaku was the best because of it's versatility. It would've been nice if we had gotten to see Yzak, Dearka, and Shiho using Zaku's.

2013-05-03, 21:24	Link #6945
Aquaman OS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	I'd vote Zaku the worst actually. No atmospheric flight without those easily destroyed flight platforms that Minerva didn't even seem to have in stock. Meanwhile Windam can equip jetpacks, while Murasame's have a flight mode built in, complete with a beam cannon as well.

2013-05-03, 22:27	Link #6946
S.Freedom Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: On the edge of insanity Age: 44	The thing is neither the Murasame or Windam is a dedicated flight model while the Babi is. And it's more heavily armed than either of those units. That's not even considering the Gouf either. Though to be honest I just don't like how the Murasame looks. So I'm some what biased against it.

2013-05-03, 23:23	Link #6949
S.Freedom Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: On the edge of insanity Age: 44	Alright you got me there Obelisk.. It just looks awkward in comparison to the Savior for example. It's like the mecha designer mashed a fighter jet with the astray and hoped for the best. I'd hoped Orb would continue the Astray line with a flight capable model that didn't include the shrike rotor.

2013-05-04, 01:24	Link #6950
Aquaman OS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	The Murasame basically IS an Astray though. It's the next unit in the MP Astray line essentially.

2013-05-04, 09:26	Link #6953
S.Freedom Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: On the edge of insanity Age: 44	Each version of the extended had their positives and negatives. The first stage where better pilots at the cost of controllability, while the second had better controllability at the cost of piloting skill. Any possible third stage would likely combine the best aspects of both. Meaning third stage extended's would have the first stages piloting skill, while also having the seconds controllability. Which under the right conditions would be interesting to see imo.

2013-05-04, 11:09	Link #6955
Destined_Fate Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."	A lot of things turned to putty when Kira showed up but we are best not getting back into the reasoning behind that again. Sniff... Destiny started so great and had amazing potential with Shinn and it was squandered!

2013-05-04, 13:18	Link #6957
Destined_Fate Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."	Shinn later on also had no trouble with them either. He improved but Auel, Sting, and Stellar kinda remained at their fighting levels from start to finish. Sting and Stellar just got more "Crazy" put in. Lunamaria also improved quite a bit as well and the Destroy, which was super destructive, was soon rendered pointless with the Dsetiny, Legend, and Impulse taking out a bunch of them with no effort at all due to Shinn's strategy.

2013-05-04, 15:34	Link #6958
Aquaman OS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	Shinn was still struggling against Auel in their final encounter. Although he did eventually kill him by shielding himself with his pack and tossing the Javelin, he never managed to get to the point where he could fly up and one hit kill them Kira style, for him or any of the Extendeds. Of course he never really managed to get to that level against any of the other Gundams. Even when he destroyed Freedom it was a fast paced battle with little margin for error that he had to work for.

2013-05-04, 17:08	Link #6960
Aquaman OS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	Actually Sting could use his weapon pods on earth. He rarely did, but he was shown doing it at least once. He's also the only Extended to notably improve as he's able to actually match Kira during the Berlin battle, until the Murasame's cut him off, despite Kira one shotting him a few episodes prior. As for Athrun being able to be more effective with the Zaku then Savior, I chalk that up to his skill wavering when he's not confident in what he's doing. With the Zaku he was trying to save the Earth from rementants of his father's ideals, so obvious he was totally focused and motivated. But by the time he's using Savior in combat he just found out Orb allied with EA and Kira and Cagalli had bailed from Orb, so his plan of rejoining Zaft to help them just went up in smoke. He's still fairly effective in the first two battles regardless(shooting down some Windams, backing Sting into a corner and saving Shinn once, and taking out the mobile armor), but once he actually starts coming into conflict with Orb and Kira his skill plummets. Not to mention that nobody in Zaft really seems to like him all that much. Once he's back in Orb with the knowledge that Durandal set him up and can't be trusted so Kira was correct not to trust him, his skill rises, because he's with his buddies again that like and forgave him, and he believes Durandal's Zaft is in the wrong.