2011-11-10, 00:40 | Link #1061 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Cali, Colombia
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2011-11-10, 00:58 | Link #1062 |
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Cali, Colombia
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Marx seems a bit screwy in these day and age, but don't forget what ppl of that time where going through I mean In russia ppl used news papers as shoes while the czars lived with such luxuries that it was immoral.
Thats why I think communism flourished there. By the way I think that The second great china wall was communism, because they suffered a regression economically and socially that I compare it to the first china wall.
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2011-11-10, 01:25 | Link #1063 | ||||||||
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Join Date: May 2009
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Marx and Engles formulated Scientific-Socialism as a reaction to the Industrial Revolution which was supposedly depriving laborers of their "share" of the profits of the businesses that hired them. Owenism also attacked that practice by actually sharing the profits equally among the workers. Marx and Robert Owens were in agreement, not in contradiction. Quote:
Nice to know you're a corporatist. Quote:
Had you said Von Hayek or Von Mises, then I would agree. What part of John Locke's statement about "all men are created equal" do you not understand? That is an egalitarian ideal. Unless of course you're thinking of the socialist idea of "egalitarianism." Alexis de Tocqueville described the difference quite well: Democracy extends the sphere of individual freedom, socialism restricts it. Democracy attaches all possible value to each man; socialism makes each man a mere agent, a mere number. Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude. Quote:
Specie money and fiat money are both backed by the government. The difference between them is that fiat money has no value in and of itself. Specie money has actual value without needing the backing of the government, like gold, silver, platinum, etc. When you say "capitalism" I think you mean that a corporatist system cannot survive without central banking, and it can't. Capitalism doesn't require central banking at all. Quote:
So called non-profit corporations shouldn't exist in a capitalist system, meaning the NRA, ACLU, etc. should be able to form their groups without government approval/license in the form of a 501C corporation. A corporation is a public-private partnership in which government gives permission to form a business. Whereas, a business can exist with or without government permission in and of itself. Quote:
What do you call this fantasy land you live in? Tariffs in lieu of a progressive graduated income tax is a preferable system. Your "what if" question is moot since Solace and I weren't talking about "what ifs." I answered her question about what I considered a capitalist system. Quote:
No one said anything about Apple being destroyed right now. Nice strawman, but it's useless in this conversation. Quote:
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2011-11-10, 01:35 | Link #1065 |
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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If the candidates were a bowl of fruit (and I include Obama in this), then all the fruit would be rotten.
Therefore the choice before us is which of the candidates is the least rotten/corrupt? For better or worse that candidate is Ron Paul. Put another way, I dislike many of his stances, but I like more than I oppose. Whereas I cannot stand Perry, have come to not trust Cain, and Romney, and just as I was starting to like Huntsman, realized he has no chance. Obama has proven he is a shill for the big banks and Wall Street (they give him the most campaign contributions), and Romney is a Republican version of Obama. Gingrich helped get us into the financial mess we're in by helping to repeal the Glass Stegall act and deregulate the banks (which Clinton didn't stop). Ron Paul, for all his faults (and he has many, from the so called "racist newsletters", to his stance on abortion, to Kent Snyder's death), hasn't done the damage these other candidates have. He votes against the "wars for profit," he understands sound money, and he sticks to what he believes in without wavering very much (he still does waver). Hope that answers your question ATM.
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2011-11-10, 01:40 | Link #1066 | ||
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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You said "Business must be allowed to follow the same life cycle as their creators and thus should be born, live, and die accordingly." I believe Kaiba interpreted that literally, meaning the business should die with its creator. I image you meant that a business should be allowed to die if it faulters, instead of being propped up by the government when it goes bankrupt (like say most of the US Automotive industry, minus Ford that didn't take the deal from Congress and made it back without government aid).
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2011-11-10, 01:43 | Link #1067 | |
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Yes Ithekro, I mean that a business should "sink or swim" based on how it performs in the marketplace, not die with the person that started it. In other words, when a company like GM goes bankrupt, it should have to "die" and start over or get replaced by a new company that fills the void. Of course, that would require a much stronger currency than we have now for cooperatives to afford to create a new automotive business.
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2011-11-10, 01:46 | Link #1068 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Cali, Colombia
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anyways back to the subject, yeah I agree with Perry, too bad hes not a good debater, he was crush during his presentations by Romney and Pawlenty. I liked the fact that Gene Simons "The Oracle" endorsed him hehehe. Yeah Ron paul very much dislikes the current wars, but It will be very hard to educate ppl about it. Remember how everyone was agains Irak when Bush was president. Now that the anoited one is in power everyone just forgot to protest about those wars heheeeh, the Irony. Only code pink is still protesting the wars but the are dismissed as a bunch of loons.
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Last edited by ATM; 2011-11-10 at 01:56. |
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2011-11-10, 01:48 | Link #1069 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Cali, Colombia
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Yeah no corporation should ever be too big to fail! And goverment should keep away from the private sector, I mean not to compete with it.
Yeah the letters I think are fake, but they have his signature on the bottom, I mean who knows, even if they are true, he doesnot come across as a racist and a lot of black people support him, so what I see is what I believe, so I dont think he is racist.
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Last edited by ATM; 2011-11-10 at 02:07. |
2011-11-10, 06:52 | Link #1070 | ||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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That's it on a simple scale. Free trade, when properly regulated, benefits everyone. It produces greater competition in all markets, and leads to improved and cheaper goods and services for all. And tariffs can really hard hit certain products that are impossible to produce without foreign good inputs. For instance let's say you make a car engine with all american steel, and it's a decent engine, but the shell isn't strong enough to support a more then 5 horsepower. If you instead make the shell with Indonesian chrome steel, your engine would be powerful enough to go at 10 horsepower. However, with tariffs the price of your new product will be 3 times that of the all-american one, while without tariffs it would only be 1.2 times the price of the all american model. End result is that your superior product can't compete, and the consumer ends out with a worse engine in their car. |
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2011-11-10, 08:26 | Link #1071 | |||||
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston
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Secondly, I'll get back to the earlier one. Why would going the Owenist route have changed anything? It was tried. It failed. Badly. As you pointed out with Fourier ( and was also true with Owen, as he talked about domesticating elephants and whales), they had just utterly ludicrous dreams. I mean, Owen's stuff is called "Utopain socialism" for a reason. Quote:
After all, my understanding is weak, if Apple lost its corporation status tomorrow, what then? Does Apple just die? I doubt that. Quote:
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And without fractional reserve? You won't have banks, period - at that point, there's not a huge difference between putting it in a bank or your mattress. And there is no way a capitalist system could survive if there were no banks, no lending, etc. Gold possesses no value in and of itself either. After all, the only thing the government can really decree is "$1=$1". It is the people, the general economic system who figure out how many dollars gets a loaf of bread. Just like gold. The government can't do that without price controls and other drastic measures which would set off a riot if enacted under the current political climate. Quote:
Also, I saw this mentioned earlier, but it really is one that is bugging me. We had Bush. He was proud of sticking to his guns and not being concerned about public opinions. We all know how great that turned out. We have the Tea Party, a radical conservative ideology that is determined to fight with Obama to the end in the name of their ideals. Why is shifting with the political winds viewed as such an evil these days, and sticking to ideals no matter what so important? These guys are representatives. They are supposed to represent us, and what we believe. So if we can change our views, why can't they? Why do we freak out when they do? Part of it is an attack on Ron Paul, I'll admit. The fact that you held the same view for 30 years doesn't change the fact that your views is completely nuts, Paul. I don't see why I'm supposed to be impressed that you held it for so long. |
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2011-11-10, 09:18 | Link #1072 |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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Extrinsic value. Platinum has both high intrinsic and extrinsic value, since not only does it look pretty, it can be used in catalytic converters and super-corrosion resistant electrodes for lab experiments, hence it is really worth its money.
Silver and gold both have past intrinsic value as equipment material, but not as much as it is replaced by meta-materials and newly researched alloys. However, due to their place in history as a symbol of wealth, it continues to have high extrinsic value. Whoever wants to try another Silver Thursday has got to be the next witless fool like the Hunt Brothers; there isn't much intrinsic value for gold and silver anymore.
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2011-11-10, 11:03 | Link #1073 | |||||||||
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I said, Marx screwed up socialism by going after the Bourgeoisie. Owens didn't. Quote:
It was Engles that labeled them Utopian because they wanted to co-exist with the current order and improve it rather than completely tear it down and attempt to start over. Quote:
If people/consumers no longer want the product that Apple produces then Apple dies because there is no government bailout in capitalism, nor should there be. Quote:
Thus you are defending the corporate structure by attacking Owens without defining your own beliefs. Quote:
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Put another way. If the fiat dollar collapses, will you still be able to trade in gold and silver? Answer, yes. Quote:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/gener...ry?id=13224558 Progressive income taxes are a joke. We seem them applied in practice all over the world and they don't work. Quote:
Obama is not representing the interests of the majority in this country which is why his approval numbers are hovering in the low 40s. So yes, we need a change alright, in 2012 we need to kick Obama out and elect someone who understands freedom. Otherwise, things are only going to get worse for us. Quote:
If you have a problem with the constitution and the bill of rights kindly pack your belongings and GTFO of the United States. Insanity is never learning from one's mistakes, and since Obama is simply an extension of the same policies of Bush, Clinton, Bush Sr., Reagan, etc all the way back to Woodrow Wilson, I'd say we need a serious reset back to the original constitutional principles.
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2011-11-10, 11:51 | Link #1074 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2009
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I'm a bit late in replying but,
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But even so, it's amazing to me how you've twice now managed to take issue with what I'd say were the least significant points of my posts. First whether or not Soros had donated to a cause, now about the status of ACORN's current existence, which pales in importance next to the fact there was never any evidence of wrongdoing on ACORN's part. |
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2011-11-10, 12:08 | Link #1075 | ||||||
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston
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Just a few smaller points, due to lack of time.
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Owen's plan was more or less this: 1. Create commune ( ie. New Harmony) 2. Have everyone realize how awesome these communes are. 3. Everyone joins, and we have kittens and butterflies, and the old capitalist dog eat dog society goes down the drain. The fact that New Harmony was an epic fail kind of screwed this plan over, and Marx made a more realistic version, one that actually looked at the present system. If you disagree, you have to remember that really no one outside of academics has any clue who the heck Robert Owen is. He has had no influence on socialism as it has existed since the death of Marx. Quote:
I still don't see the huge difference between corporations and businesses, and why the former is bad and the latter is good. You stated that corporations are bad because they require government approval. I pointed out that Apple is a corporation, but they didn't need government approval to form, and I don't believe that if Apple was a corporation instead of a business, things would be very different for it. Quote:
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Furthermore, how do you regulate it? What's going to stop me in that society from just selling fool's gold, or lesser quality gold? |
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2011-11-10, 12:40 | Link #1076 |
Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Well, forced myself to watch last night's debate:
Bachmann: Twit. Herman Cain: My solution to everything is 999. The accusations are false. Did I mention my solution is 999? And the answer to any question is for me to stay on my talking points about 999. My god, this guy is so dumb that he's a standing justification for so many racists. Good thing he's not a democrat! Romney: solid performance IMO. Ron Paul: not enough talking time. Nowhere near enough. Rick Perry: Wants to cut education. What happens when you do? Presenting exhibit A. Honestly? Stick a fork in him, he's done. Gingrich: one good idea about colleges providing students /w work experience in the summer. Other than that, nah. Huntsman: I like him, but he's someone who believes in science in the Republican party. He's screwed more than anyone else.
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2011-11-10, 14:31 | Link #1077 |
=^^=
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 42° 10' N (Latitude) 87° 33' W (Longitude)
Age: 45
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Mike Tyson impersonation of Herman Cain. XD
http://content.usatoday.com/communit...n-impression/1 Funniest line: "The Tea Party like crazy more than they hate black." (or something like that) XD
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2011-11-10, 18:11 | Link #1079 | ||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Maybe your beef is with Interest. I'm all for favouring other forms of banking (particularly those that are owned by it's members, and non-profit), but you can't really get away from fractional reserve. It's the entire point, you give money to the bank/building society/etc. so that it can lend it to people who need it, either to start a new business, build a house etc. |
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2012 elections, us elections |
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