In the first battle of ORB

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by cloudedge

Well, while athrun wouldn't know what Orb is trying to do, he is a trained solider who is aware of political influence on a battle (it's shown when they infiltrate Orb the first time) and he should know better than to go against the flow during a retreat despite being a rouge force...

Hm that might be true, but i doubt that the retreat of ORB forces would affect them much - its not like they were a lot of help. hm... but at least they kept the daggers occupied, so point taken i gues - but at that time the ORB wasnt retreating yet, and if they would directly follow the drugg squad it wouldnt take much time to actually sink them once they have landed on the ship.

After he has descent from Justice, he met Cagalli, who basically spend the whole time watching him, she even said it herself, that she's just watching him... Orb weren't about to let him cause more unneccessary chaos.

Problem is ORB cant do anything about it :P They really cant afford another enemy, especially Athrun, really if he would want to pursue then no one can stop him.

Despite Orb know that it was Azrael that's behind the attack I doubt they have any intellegence that proves that Azrael was on the fleet, for all orb's know, Azrael could have been half a world away.

It was meant as a positive side effect from sinking the EA flaghip If ORB would have actually known that Azrael is there im sure they would try to get to him :P

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by neodrag38

Was the Orb battle even up to 4 days?

I doubt it. It looked like the EA attacked on Day One, the second attack was on Day Two, and then the Three Ship Alliance (at the time two ships) blasted off shortly after the second attack, followed by the defeat/surrender/last act of defiance by Uzumi, still on Day Two.

[neodrag38]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

I doubt it. It looked like the EA attacked on Day One, the second attack was on Day Two, and then the Three Ship Alliance (at the time two ships) blasted off shortly after the second attack, followed by the defeat/surrender/last act of defiance by Uzumi, still on Day Two.

Thus, a new record breaker.

[reinloch]

It's called a counterattack. They could do it with all the remaining ORB forces. Maybe Uzumi didn't have to die. But that's not what Fukuda wanted.

[4Tran]

From the portrayal in the show, it was quite obvious that the OMNI forces had a vast numerical advantage over the Orb defenders. They never even thought about a counterattack; probably because it was a foolish idea given the troop dispositions. Despite what some people may say, Freedom and Justice simply don't have enough firepower by themselves to take on vastly superior numbers: this ability doesn't show up until they use the METEOR units. Even then, it's uncertain that the resulting combination would be all that effective against entire fleets.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

I doubt it. It looked like the EA attacked on Day One, the second attack was on Day Two, and then the Three Ship Alliance (at the time two ships) blasted off shortly after the second attack, followed by the defeat/surrender/last act of defiance by Uzumi, still on Day Two.

To clarify, the AF attacked on the 15th of June and Orb fell on the 16th according to the Official Timeline.

The two attacks it seems occured during the first day I think. THe second might've been at sunset.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by RedWing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimatum
There was no negotiation

Sure there was. The EA said "give me your mass driver," Atha said "I'd rather see my citizens die then betray neutrality," and the EA said "fine then." Smart negotiations could have started at "ok, but how and how much are you willing to give me." That's really what all ultimatum's go into, and Orb has a very handy card with which to play with. "You want to kill my citizens? Oh, too bad, looks like someone got their hands on the self-destruct code for the mass driver, how sad..."

When did ORB stop being a "crucial player". The only reason Djibril eventually used them was because of their strength.

When did Orb stop being as critical a factor? Probably some point around when the Earth had gotten back to its feet after overcoming the energy crisis, the EA had the technology to field its own high-technology MS, and had its own mass drivers again. Orb's hand in Destiny was much, MUCH weaker in comparison to its relative importance in Seed.

Ever heard of evacuation? Everyone left the island, so there was no one worth pillaging, and if they got the evacuation boats there would be no real way to tell who is who.

...sure there is. Strange as it is, world-level scientists and technicians generally have a name and identity, and the EA has time. It's not like the refugee boats can't be stopped, separated, and combed for whoever they want. Identity card checks, using computer recognition softward for target age groups, you can do it one ship at a time. There's no Orb force to stop them, and the big bad EA is well established at doing dirty, dirty jobs.

And you're clearly ignorant into post-WW2 history, specifically the Russian occupation of Eastern Europe, in which the phrase "everything that wasn't nailed down, and most of what was" comes to mind. The dismantling and transfer of industry from occupied regions is a well-established practice, and that goes from universities (great technological centers with loose security that Orb would have to have) to weapon factories. Orb, as one of the richest countries in the world despite being smaller than Rhode Island, is almost ALL loot. Simply raiding a single apartment would be a plethora of high-technology consumer goods.

The simply fact is that ORB did not just join EA for no reason, they felt under the new leadership that this defensive measure would be the best for their civillians, that it would stop orb from being burned down again.

And it wouldn't have been burned when it was in the first place had Atha had more foreign policy sense than a two-yearold, now wouldn't it? He had two options that could have prevented the EA victory that everyone knew would happen: he could have elected to join the EA, or he could have accepted ZAFT offers for assistance. He didneither, Shinn's family died.

Whether it did or didn't does not excuse the fact that Shinn wasn't happy whatever ORB would've done.

Why should Shinn need to be excused for being unhappy? It wasn't his decision that saw his family killed. Blaming Shinn for being upset for that is the same kind of logical foolishness that would see a woman being blamed for rape. One person's the victim of another's choice, and yet they're the one being blamed?

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Sure there was. The EA said "give me your mass driver," Atha said "I'd rather see my citizens die then betray neutrality," and the EA said "fine then." Smart negotiations could have started at "ok, but how and how much are you willing to give me." That's really what all ultimatum's go into, and Orb has a very handy card with which to play with. "You want to kill my citizens? Oh, too bad, looks like someone got their hands on the self-destruct code for the mass driver, how sad..."

You know all of that could've been avoided if he just sent Kira and co. up into the Mass Driver and THEN blow it up rather than having to go through the process already. At that point the EA wouldn't bother wasting resources in capturing Orb.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

You know all of that could've been avoided if he just sent Kira and co. up into the Mass Driver and THEN blow it up rather than having to go through the process already. At that point the EA wouldn't bother wasting resources in capturing Orb.

Logic and Reason, you SoD? Shame on you!



Considering that IS what happened when the EA already was half-way done conquering the place...

[RedWing]

Sure there was. The EA said "give me your mass driver," Atha said "I'd rather see my citizens die then betray neutrality,"

Nope.
Demands:
1. The resignation for ORB's current government
2. The disarmament and subsequent demobilisation of its armed forces
Should these demands not be met within 48 hours the EA will have no choice but to conclude that the ORB union is a supporter of ZAFT, and will confront your nation with force.

I don't see any negotiation around this mate.

And it wouldn't have been burned when it was in the first place had Atha had more foreign policy sense than a two-yearold, now wouldn't it? He had two options that could have prevented the EA victory that everyone knew would happen: he could have elected to join the EA, or he could have accepted ZAFT offers for assistance. He didneither, Shinn's family died.

Yes it would have stopped EA at that time, but choice 1 would have gotten them attacked by ZAFT. This is the same scenario that Shinn criticised: ORB joining the EA while they are at war with ZAFT. This also would have risked the lives of the Coordinators or as azrael called them "Mankind's Enemy".

Choice 2 would have gotten them attacked by EA which due to the closeness of their army would not have guaranteed the lives of Shinn's family or other civillians. This would have made Shinn angry too.

Why should Shinn need to be excused for being unhappy? It wasn't his decision that saw his family killed. Blaming Shinn for being upset for that is the same kind of logical foolishness that would see a woman being blamed for rape. One person's the victim of another's choice, and yet they're the one being blamed?

Rape? Seriously? Shinn being unhappy is reasonable, who he is angry at is not. EA attacked them not the Athha's. It wasn't the Athha's decision that got his family killed. The Athha's defended their nation like any leader would do, their decision was not one that was taken lightly at all. This has nothing to do with rape.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by RedWing

Nope.
Demands:
1. The resignation for ORB's current government
2. The disarmament and subsequent demobilisation of its armed forces
Should these demands not be met within 48 hours the EA will have no choice but to conclude that the ORB union is a supporter of ZAFT, and will confront your nation with force.

I don't see any negotiation around this mate.

Then you have a very poor sense of bargaining. Consider the one sole reason for the EA to invade: to seize control of the mass driver. Everything else from Orb's willing assistance would have been a bonus, but the mass driver was the overriding prime reason. So much so, infact, that once it was destroyed the EA didn't even bother to stick around to kill the coordinators/sink the refugee ships/steal everything of any value from Orb, despite having overrun Orb's defense force.

If you can't seen any room for under-the-table negotiations before the EA fleet arrives (and believe me, fleets don't arrive overnight), then congratulations. You have the game theory competance of an Atha, and have entirely missed the Ace card that Orb has, the one that gives it the ability to rip on the EA's balls whenever it wishes.

Yes it would have stopped EA at that time, but choice 1 would have gotten them attacked by ZAFT. This is the same scenario that Shinn criticised: ORB joining the EA while they are at war with ZAFT.

An attack by ZAFT is possible, not guaranteed (or rather, not anymore guaranteed than it was anyways: case in point, genesis), and isn't guaranteed to kill Shinn's family. The one basis that matters, that's the key factor. The attack by the EA DID kill Shinn's family. Atha could have prevented/resisted the EA attack that did kill Shinn's, either by (a) allying with either power or (b) destroying the mass driver much earlier. He did neither. He did not even threaten or bluff either.

This also would have risked the lives of the Coordinators or as azrael called them "Mankind's Enemy".

Which wouldn't have been an issue had Orb come to an understanding with the EA. There weren't coordinator roundups in East Asia, the Eurasian Federation, or multiple other EA member states. Azrael's opinion is just that: his opinion. Even the simplest of strategists could see how letting the Orb coordinators alone will put the largest collection of coordinators, the PLANTS, into the EA's targethairs.

Choice 2 would have gotten them attacked by EA which due to the closeness of their army would not have guaranteed the lives of Shinn's family or other civillians. This would have made Shinn angry too.

This possibly would have made Shinn angry. A possible is always desirable to a certainty, which is what hindsight gives Shinn.

Rape? Seriously? Shinn being unhappy is reasonable, who he is angry at is not. EA attacked them not the Athha's.

The Atha's helped produce the situation that led to the entire situation, and then made horrible decisions.

It wasn't the Athha's decision that got his family killed.

The Athhas had alternative options available to them, each with varying increased likelyhoods of keeping Shinn's family alive. Athha deliberately chose a battle he knew they would lose, all in the name of his ideals. Believe it or not, idealogues ARE responsible for their actions, just like any other.

The Athha's defended their nation like any leader would do, their decision was not one that was taken lightly at all.

Most any other nations have the sense to avoid fights that they know they would lose. Most any other leader will bend away idealogical purity for the sake of policies that will actually work. Most any other nation with significant power, upon having an entire city/colony annihalated by another power, wouldn't refuse to change policy and allow their capital to be overrun.

Athha hardly "defended" their nation. Atthats led their nations from one mess to another by sticking to an idealogy with no proven record of success.

This has nothing to do with rape.

Congratulations, you fail at analogies whose meanings are elaborated in the same post. Do you expect a cookie for that?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

You know all of that could've been avoided if he just sent Kira and co. up into the Mass Driver and THEN blow it up rather than having to go through the process already. At that point the EA wouldn't bother wasting resources in capturing Orb.

You have to recall that destroying the mass driver was an act of desperation; when all other efforts had already proven useless. Destroying one's own infrastructure as the initial step in responding to an enemy ultimatum is pure foolishness.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

You have to recall that destroying the mass driver was an act of desperation; when all other efforts had already proven useless. Destroying one's own infrastructure as the initial step in responding to an enemy ultimatum is pure foolishness.

The battle was lost eitherway. They refused ZAFT's assistance so it was obvious that they were going to lose in the first place.

[4Tran]

On the subject of the particular battle, Orb actually won the first engagement. If the EA force had been any less dead-set on winning out despite their losses, Orb might well have won at least a temporary reprieve. Allying with PLANT was of little purpose since their troops were still at Carpentaria - as far as we can tell, Yzak's submarine was the only ZAFT asset in the vicinity. All that this would accomplish would accomplish would be to escalate the conflict, and ensure that Orb would be a battlefield for a long time to come.

In the general sense, it's just stupid to start destroying one's infrastructure on the receipt of an ultimatum. This principle holds particularly true when the threatened country is small, and can't gain from a scorched earth strategy. As a rule, even small countries with no chance of winning stand to gain from showing at least a modicum of armed resistance than from either self-destruction or immediate surrender. The main reason for this is that long-term prospects and relations are improved such a show of resistance.

[Dean_the_Young]

They didn't even threaten to destroy the mass driver, though. When they did destroy them, it was to deny it from the enemy, not as a negotiation tool. One of the significant tools any small oil-producing nation has these days is the threat to prepare to demolish their own oil wells in the case of an invasion. Since the purpose of invading most small oil-producing countries is, in fact, oil, it can also be particularly effective, especially when those oil-wells are integrated into the world economy (as opposed to an economically and politically isolated country).

[RedWing]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Then you have a very poor sense of bargaining. Consider the one sole reason for the EA to invade: to seize control of the mass driver. Everything else from Orb's willing assistance would have been a bonus, but the mass driver was the overriding prime reason. So much so, infact, that once it was destroyed the EA didn't even bother to stick around to kill the coordinators/sink the refugee ships/steal everything of any value from Orb, despite having overrun Orb's defense force.

If you can't seen any room for under-the-table negotiations before the EA fleet arrives (and believe me, fleets don't arrive overnight), then congratulations. You have the game theory competance of an Atha, and have entirely missed the Ace card that Orb has, the one that gives it the ability to rip on the EA's balls whenever it wishes.

48 hours. 48 hours to lay down their government and army. There is NOTHING, NOTHING in there that even mentions the use of the mass driver. Please stop talking about bargaining as if it was an option at that time.

An attack by ZAFT is possible, not guaranteed (or rather, not anymore guaranteed than it was anyways: case in point, genesis), and isn't guaranteed to kill Shinn's family. The one basis that matters, that's the key factor. The attack by the EA DID kill Shinn's family. Atha could have prevented/resisted the EA attack that did kill Shinn's, either by (a) allying with either power or (b) destroying the mass driver much earlier. He did neither. He did not even threaten or bluff either.

1. The fact that even you are now agreeing on is that the safety of ORB's citizens was not guaranteed whatever decision they made.
2. IIRC ORB did not even know that EA wanted their mass driver, just that they wanted ORB.
3. They fought back to defend their country, and when that failed they made sure that people did not die in vain by destroying all things of value in the country.
4. The way you talk is as if barely anyone made it out of ORB or that ORB did not try to get their civilians out in order to stop casualties. Shinn's family was a casualty of an attack by an enemy nation. Therefore it would make sense for him to hate the country that attacked his country and killed his family. I do not believe it makes sense to get angry at the leaders of your nation for trying to protect you.

Athha hardly "defended" their nation. Atthats led their nations from one mess to another by sticking to an idealogy with no proven record of success.

Please don't make crap up just to win an argument. SEED showed people were coming from all over the place to live in ORB because of their ideals. They defended the nation well considering the circumstances.

Congratulations, you fail at analogies whose meanings are elaborated in the same post. Do you expect a cookie for that?

Your rape analogy made no sense and was as necessary and inflammatory as bringing the Nazi's into this discussion. Shinn's family was not a victim of the Athha's choice. They were a victim of the EA's choice.

You seem to be getting unnecessarily angry at this discussion; please calm down.

[hero147]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

The battle was lost eitherway. They refused ZAFT's assistance so it was obvious that they were going to lose in the first place.

I doubt they would have lost if Kira downloaded his hacks before the battle of Orb. Being one of the top aces after Destiny, he could have finished the druggies in less than a minute. Being a mass grunt destroyer, he couldve did soo much damage to the EA if the druggies didnt come into contact.

The answer of whether orb made the right decision I guess is up to the person watching the series. Since some people think ideals>life, or life>ideals...The evacuation wouldve started about 45-47 hours prior to the attack. Anyhow, I thought Orb getting destroyed helped the story whether or not it was a smart move on Uzumi's part. Gundam Seed numbah 3 ftw

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by RedWing

48 hours. 48 hours to lay down their government and army. There is NOTHING, NOTHING in there that even mentions the use of the mass driver. Please stop talking about bargaining as if it was an option at that time.

You do realize that there was a fair deal of time before the EA fleet arrived, you know. The ultimatum was the result of the poor negotiations, not the opening, and even ultimatums are negotiated when accepted. The devil is in the details, dear heart.

But then, I don't see how much more there is to discuss with someone inexperienced in fundamentals of negotiations, so consider this my last post to you. Feel free to spend the minutes replying, though, even if they could be spent learning game theory.

1. The fact that even you are now agreeing on is that the safety of ORB's citizens was not guaranteed whatever decision they made.

And yet they chose the path that was most likely to result in serious civilian losses, choosing the fight against a superior power without any help. The justification for that decision was not about the potential losses if they made a choice to delay a fight: the series made it rather clear that Atha made his choice in the name of his ideals.

2. IIRC ORB did not even know that EA wanted their mass driver, just that they wanted ORB.

You remember wrong. It was rather obvious and explictly noted that the EA invasion of Orb had everything to do with the ZAFT attack on Panama and the resultant loss of the EA's last mass driver.

3. They fought back to defend their country, and when that failed they made sure that people did not die in vain by destroying all things of value in the country.

Uh no, they didn't. They destroyed the mass driver, and that was about it. Two years later, Orb is fielding one of the comparitively most advanced mass-produced mobile suits in CE after a significant arms buildup, rebuilt its mass driver, and had not so much as a scratch of the old battle left visible.

None of which change the fact that Orb deliberately chose to fight against a superior foe with no assistance and only destroyed their mass driver to deny it to the enemy, not as a negotiations tool. Brave and valliant the retreating soldiers of Orb may have been before they left the capital island to the tender mercies of the EA, but that doesn't change the foolishness of their supreme, unelected, heriditary ruler.

4. The way you talk is as if barely anyone made it out of ORB or that ORB did not try to get their civilians out in order to stop casualties.

Read what I say, not what you imagine I say. I've made it rather clear that I recognize that refugee boats got out, as well as that significant amounts of civilians were left on the Orb island. I've also noted that their survival after the battle had more to do with the EA not carring about them than anything Orb's defense force did: by the end of the day, Orb's forces are beaten, while the EA navy rules the waters. Orb couldn't have stopped the EA if it wanted to, but the EA didn't want to. Had the EA rounded up every refugee ship and sunk them in the middle of the Pacific with all hands aboard, it would have been another example of the imptency of Athha's policy decisions.

Shinn's family was a casualty of an attack by an enemy nation. Therefore it would make sense for him to hate the country that attacked his country and killed his family. I do not believe it makes sense to get angry at the leaders of your nation for trying to protect you.

Congratulations: my opinion on your world-wiseness just went down a notch. It's a perfectly common occurance for people to blame those people other than those who actually committed and attack, whether because they helped set up the situation that allowed the attack to commence, made poor choices that led to a disaster, or because of some belief of a conspiracy. I'm sure even you have heard of the various flavors of the 9-11 conspiracies?

Well, maybe you haven't. I won't expect that much. But when faced with a situation, Athha made a decision that had serious foreseeable and preventable/delayable (depending on your scenario) consequences.

Please don't make crap up just to win an argument. SEED showed people were coming from all over the place to live in ORB because of their ideals. They defended the nation well considering the circumstances.

One: "considering the circumstances" does nothing but try and hide the fact that they failed. Finland fought well "considering the circumstances," which really just meant that they drowned under oceans of Soviet blood before going under Soviet occupation for a good while. Good leaders recognize when "doing well considering the circumstances" is no substitute for not doing anything at all.

Two: I was talking about the Athas, not the people of Orb. The Atha legacy of leadership is rather telling: in Seed, it sees a space colony annhalated (no response), the mainland invaded, and the government decapitated (through their own suicide). In Destiny, we open up with Cagelli attempting to berate Durandle for having weapons as Orb finishes its own major military buildup, Orb allying with the as it declares war on trumped-up charges (every national government knew that ZAFT wasn't responsible for Junius 7, and had in fact been the only one to work to prevent it), the entire Orb expeditionary force annihalated (after the brother of the leader of the country, who had signed the Treaty of Alliance against ZAFT, prevented Orb soldiers from destroying the Minerva), and Orb once again attacked (because the Athhas decided to harbor a man wanted for crimes against humanity).

About the only good results the Athhas brough Orb was when Cagelli helped install Lacus as leader of the PLANTS, giving Orb the friendship of the strongest power in the solar system. The only people who had worse results under their leadership, though, was the Atlantic Federation.

Your rape analogy made no sense and was as necessary and inflammatory as bringing the Nazi's into this discussion. Shinn's family was not a victim of the Athha's choice. They were a victim of the EA's choice.

You can't understand one of the most basic victim-blame situations in the world? Fine. Forget I said it then.

But, and here's something you're clearly too inexperienced to quite grasp, but Athha made a choice in response to the EA's choice. Leaders are judged by their response (and the consequences thereof) to situations they rarely have any control over. The Athha choice saw the burning of Orb and the loss of many lives, and he is judged accordingly.

I'd give a military analogy about how a leader isn't somehow absolved of responsibility when his command is defeated by a superior force just because the enemy chose to attack. If he didn't prepare, seek ways to stop the incident from happening, and use every tool at his disposal to take the best option available, he would be lucky not to relieved of command.

But I doubt that you'd understand that.

You seem to be getting unnecessarily angry at this discussion; please calm down.

Angry? Trust me, I'm not angry. If it were my dorm-mate saying this BS, I might be. But that's because in three years he would be leading men and woman in situations where knowledge of this level could kill good men and women who could otherwise live. Then I would be angry.

You? You aren't about to be in a position to decide in live or death decisions. You're hardly worth scorn, let alone anger.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

They didn't even threaten to destroy the mass driver, though. When they did destroy them, it was to deny it from the enemy, not as a negotiation tool. One of the significant tools any small oil-producing nation has these days is the threat to prepare to demolish their own oil wells in the case of an invasion. Since the purpose of invading most small oil-producing countries is, in fact, oil, it can also be particularly effective, especially when those oil-wells are integrated into the world economy (as opposed to an economically and politically isolated country).

I haven't heard of any nations adopting self-immolation as a survival technique before. Besides, it wouldn't even work as a determined occupier would simply repair any such damage. All it would accomplish is the impoverishment of the country after the attacker is driven out, or leaves. Actions of this nature aren't born out of negotiation tact; they're born out of desperation.

Originally Posted by RedWing

48 hours. 48 hours to lay down their government and army. There is NOTHING, NOTHING in there that even mentions the use of the mass driver. Please stop talking about bargaining as if it was an option at that time.

While the ultimatum didn't mention the mass driver directly, the leaders on both sides understood that both it and Morgenrete were the main targets. What the leaders of Orb didn't know was that this was just a secondary attack - the EA's primary target was the Victoria mass driver. They also were unaware that the EA wanted to break Orb's neutral stance no matter what.

Originally Posted by hero147

I doubt they would have lost if Kira downloaded his hacks before the battle of Orb. Being one of the top aces after Destiny, he could have finished the druggies in less than a minute. Being a mass grunt destroyer, he couldve did soo much damage to the EA if the druggies didnt come into contact.

No matter how powerful Freedom was, it simply has never shown the ability to destroy a vast fleet like that of the EA invasion force.

Originally Posted by hero147

The answer of whether orb made the right decision I guess is up to the person watching the series. Since some people think ideals>life, or life>ideals...The evacuation wouldve started about 45-47 hours prior to the attack. Anyhow, I thought Orb getting destroyed helped the story whether or not it was a smart move on Uzumi's part. Gundam Seed numbah 3 ftw

In this particular case, all of the choices led to unwelcome results. That's always the problem faced by a weak country confronted by a superior foe, and I think that it made for compelling drama.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

You do realize that there was a fair deal of time before the EA fleet arrived, you know. The ultimatum was the result of the poor negotiations, not the opening, and even ultimatums are negotiated when accepted. The devil is in the details, dear heart.

Please check your facts. The ultimatum was the intial EA statement, and Orb actually tried to negotiate up to the last minute. Since Azrael was determined to break Orb's neutrality, war was an inevitable consequence.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

And yet they chose the path that was most likely to result in serious civilian losses, choosing the fight against a superior power without any help. The justification for that decision was not about the potential losses if they made a choice to delay a fight: the series made it rather clear that Atha made his choice in the name of his ideals.

The only way to delay the "fight" would have been to immediately ally with the EA.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Congratulations: my opinion on your world-wiseness just went down a notch. It's a perfectly common occurance for people to blame those people other than those who actually committed and attack, whether because they helped set up the situation that allowed the attack to commence, made poor choices that led to a disaster, or because of some belief of a conspiracy. I'm sure even you have heard of the various flavors of the 9-11 conspiracies?

You're attacking a strawman; RedWing wasn't claiming that Shinn's reaction wasn't realistic - "I do not believe it makes sense to get angry" is attacking the logic of such a reaction.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

One: "considering the circumstances" does nothing but try and hide the fact that they failed. Finland fought well "considering the circumstances," which really just meant that they drowned under oceans of Soviet blood before going under Soviet occupation for a good while. Good leaders recognize when "doing well considering the circumstances" is no substitute for not doing anything at all.

Are you trying to claim that smaller countries should never try to defend themselves from more powerful attackers? You do realize that there are good reasons for doing so even if the chances of victory are slim, don't you?


Dean_the_Young, while you claim that you're not angry, it's apparent from your language that you're starting to make it personal. I advise that you cease that approach, and stick to attacking arguments instead.

[Dean_the_Young]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I haven't heard of any nations adopting self-immolation as a survival technique before. Besides, it wouldn't even work as a determined occupier would simply repair any such damage. All it would accomplish is the impoverishment of the country after the attacker is driven out, or leaves. Actions of this nature aren't born out of negotiation tact; they're born out of desperation

You haven't? Threats to destroy oil infrastructure if invaded during times of tension aren't uncommon (Venezuela does it constantly, though few pay attention anymore. Iran is a better example), and have been tied to fluxuating oil prices when the world market gets a bit unsure of its supply. It's a political tool used to remind both the other countries and their populations of how fragile the infrastructure is, and how important it is for it to stay intact. Building a mass driver is a matter of year(s), not days, and the threat to destroy it is the negotiations tactic, while carrying it out is what comes after the enemy attacks. If "repairing" the Mass Driver was all it took, then it would be much easier, quicker, and more profitable for the EA to rebuild the Panama driver than it ever would for the Orb driver. And since the Orb not only rebuilt their driver quickly, but also also remained a major economic and technological power, it was hardly "impoverishing."

In this particular case, all of the choices led to unwelcome results. That's always the problem faced by a weak country confronted by a superior foe, and I think that it made for compelling drama.

Drama? Sure. But weak countries have to step carefully around large angry neighbors, and sticking to a contrary polciy purely for ideological reasons qualifies neither as carefully or good.

Please check your facts. The ultimatum was the intial EA statement, and Orb actually tried to negotiate up to the last minute. Since Azrael was determined to break Orb's neutrality, war was an inevitable consequence.

I will admit my error in that. It still doesn't change that Athha made his choice when faced with a circumstance.

The only way to delay the "fight" would have been to immediately ally with the EA.

And when the fight came, they could have had EA assisstance to fight against ZAFT. That puts them at a much better position than against the EA on their own. ZAFT orbital drops against prepared positions (as such a small island as Orb generally can be considered) were generally disastrous, and the EA navy that attacked Orb can also be the EA navy that helps fight against the ZAFT force attacking Orb.

You're attacking a strawman; RedWing wasn't claiming that Shinn's reaction wasn't realistic - "I do not believe it makes sense to get angry" is attacking the logic of such a reaction.

He was saying it was unreasonable for Shinn to blame Attha. I am arguing it is perfectly fair for Attha to blamed for his decisions and their results.

Are you trying to claim that smaller countries should never try to defend themselves from more powerful attackers? You do realize that there are good reasons for doing so even if the chances of victory are slim, don't you?

Oh, there's nothing wrong with trying to defend yourself from a larger country. It's just generally helpful to have the means to do it. It used to be that small Eastern European countries in the Soviet sphere could be mauled into submission by the Red Army. Then they joined NATO, and while economic pressure is there the threat of military intervention is, shall we say, much reduced?

But when you stand against a stronger neighbor without aid, you really shouldn't be surprised when you get mauled. Assuming that neutrality is going to save your citizens when neutrality is not a choice, though, is a fool's errand.

Dean_the_Young, while you claim that you're not angry, it's apparent from your language that you're starting to make it personal. I advise that you cease that approach, and stick to attacking arguments instead.

I already said I wouldn't talk to him, so consider this taken with the intent it was intended.