The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll [2009 added ep. 13]

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Akka

From what you just quoted :

You don't hit people in general, because it's bad to hit people. It has nothing to do with the gender being hit.

Did you even read it before replying ?

Right back at you for this bit....

Her surroundings has been the same as others, so I don't really follow your point here.

Except her mind is just like the one of a human girl. It's quite the point of the serie.

Kyon has only been with Haruhi for few hours a day and few events occasionally. But he started to see world reconstruction, time reset, impossible technology, biological miracles, unknown climate change effect.....etc........ all were created to suit Haruhi's taste and shape up her personality....
You said her surrounding is same with others? I bet that school do not even have a single student that have a club full of those he/she wish for.

Haruhi's mind is normal girl or not, it does not change the fact we judge most of the God (whether Shinto , Sikhism, Hindu Gods , Buddha, or Haruhi) by their status and argue many of them have normal human's mind

[Jintor]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

First giving the norm rule our definition of "normal" (or at least in this case). How can you identify that entity who can get everything she want for all her life as "all intents and purposes psychologically a normal human being"?
The closest thing she has to us is her body structure. But she lives in a different class, different world.... in much higher level than those "rich spoiled kid" or "Greek God".

"Can Get" is not the same as 'as gets'. Since the world is as a whole basically 'normal' (No obvious gigantic rampaging robots, no magical girls and superheroes) and since the state of the world is linked to Haruhi's basic status, Haruhi is 'normal' or at the very least posesses that 'rational human state'. So she can't be judged as a God without at least knowing that she is a God. In order to be 'judged', one has to take responsibility for their actions, and you can't take responsibility for actions you perform that you simply do not have any knowledge of.

Second, ensure what you believe is "reality" even when that action have a huge chance rob bystanders' precious is clearly the worst form of selfish. He is no better than Haruhi in this situation, (even when it's understandable) except Haruhi is not human and she unconsciously do it.

What

I mentioned Stanford Prison Experiment just to say: the biggest force preventing us to cause chaos to this world is our righteous and our inability to carry it out(or lack of power you may say).

Except the Stanford Prison Experiment was mainly out to prove that Humans will mainly follow the orders of Authority figures even if they perceive what they are doing as 'wrong'.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Jintor

"Can Get" is not the same as 'as gets'. Since the world is as a whole basically 'normal' (No obvious gigantic rampaging robots, no magical girls and superheroes) and since the state of the world is linked to Haruhi's basic status, Haruhi is 'normal' or at the very least posesses that 'rational human state'. So she can't be judged as a God without at least knowing that she is a God. In order to be 'judged', one has to take responsibility for their actions, and you can't take responsibility for actions you perform that you simply do not have any knowledge of.

What

Except the Stanford Prison Experiment was mainly out to prove that Humans will mainly follow the orders of Authority figures even if they perceive what they are doing as 'wrong'.

Obviously the real normal world (in the anime) is not normal by own standard because it has alien, esper...etc .... all was created to please Haruhi. The normal world by your definition is only for us and Kyon who try his best to not believe in the real world. The normal world by Haruhi's definition is similar to Kyon's except here she believe Mikuru is her toy (even when she spoke that out of anger, but it's truth more or less) + few other things.

Kyon's action of trying to force Haruhi follow his world(where Haruhi's equal like everyone) is just as selfish as Haruhi try to force Mikuru to obey her. The only exception: Kyon world is same with us so we can give him some sympathy, that's all.

About God, I'm pretty sure most Gods doesn't acknowledge their status as God before being judged. They always being judged first by human before being grant their status (therefore we have Devil Gods and Gods)

About the last paragraph, are you sure that you read the right experiment? I thought the one to prove "Humans will mainly follow the orders of Authority figures even if they perceive" was the one with teachers and electricity. The Stanford Prison Experiment is mainly to prove the effect of unrestrained power on human's decision (or abuse power).

[Solachinx]

Well, after seeing The Bitchiness pf Haruhi Suzumiya IV I have to admidt that, even though I knew this was coming for about 5 months, this was EPIC. I loved the animation throughout the episode, esp. at *the* scene when it shows all the Brigade's members faces all shodowy-like. The Revenge of Mikuru BIIIIIIMU was also presented very well; loved the coloring of the contact lense there.

The music in this episode was also really good: no pieces seemed out of place, *that* scene's music was really epic (though, I'd make it a wee bit more creepier, and It was timed perfectly.

Next episode: Cats

[pirateking]

Even though Kyon didn't manage to land a blow on Haruhi, the look on her face is enough to get through to her. It just shows everyone has a limit in tolerance, no matter how nice the person like Kyon is. Its also a good opportunity for Haruhi to know that Kyon won't take her bulls&*$ forever.

Kyon's reaction is perfectly human. He is already in a pissed off mood towards haruhi as shown in his face during the Koizumi x Mikuru filming scene, to hear Haruhi said this line "Mikuru is my toy" just picked the last straw on Kyon's frustration. Haruhi saying that line is totally out of a person at her age and close to villain-like for thinking like that. If Im in Kyon's shoes, I probably will act or think the same way towards Haruhi. Haruhi IS too much during that scene, acting like an over-spoiled princess.

Like some previous post states, there might be more to the reason why Haruhi keeps mistreating only Mikuru out of the 3 unique races (time traveller, esper, alien). Haruhi snatching the bottle from Mikuru away from Kyon and giving a look that says "Oh no you don't!" is a pretty interesting scene about what Haruhi COULD BE thinking at that point. Haruhi MIGHT be personally taking her jealousy out on Mikuru, which obviously backfires on her. This is the first time we see Haruhi feel so down at school after the quarrel, not even the events in Melancholy could compare to this "incident". It would make sense for Haruhi's actions and reactions throughout the entire filming.

The atmosphere during the quarrel did portray well enough in the anime. The fact that even the cheerful Tsuruya is giving a serious face and not attempting to break up the fight says it all about how serious the situation has gotten about Haruhi's behaviour and Kyon's dissatisfaction with her.

Haruhi is definitely in the wrong, but Kyon also nearly stepped into that terrain when he raised his fist against an unarmed female. It shows all of us are flawed one way or another. Good episode.

[Triple_R]

Went back and re-watched the last few minutes of "Live Alive", and yeah... that episode takes on a greater meaning in the light of this episode.

When I first watched Live Alive, I wondered why Haruhi bothered to drag Kyon over just to see her receive thanks from ENOZ. However, the reason is patently obvious now.

Haruhi has occasional moments of deep reflectiveness and thoughtfulness. You see this most prominently with her lengthy exposition to Kyon pertaining to the baseball game that her dad took her to. These moments are typically few and far between, but they do serve as a sharp contrast to her more typically boisterous and unrestrained personality.

I suspect that after she reflected on her argument with Kyon, she could tell that she had went too far. Apologizing is one thing that obviously comes very hard to Haruhi, so she didn't apologize for what she did, but she probably felt guilt over it.

Her actions in Live Alive are a stark contrast to her actions in the making of the movie. It's clear that she wanted to demonstrate to Kyon that she had learned a valuable lesson from their argument, and so she drags him over to watch on as she receives thanks from ENOZ, and receives it rather humbly in fact. Later while lying under the tree, she states "I started questioning what I'm doing with my life".

Perhaps this is Haruhi's way of saying "I'm sorry" over the events in Sighs that, after all, come very shortly before Live Alive.


One other thing about Haruhi's character that stands out as I rewatch some of the older episodes - she has a profound respect for adult authority. In every scene I watch that has her talking to adults, she shows almost flawless courtesy, manners, and respect. Heck, this one older guy was pretty much hitting on Haruhi, and she just calmly ignored it, and bowed and thanked him for answering her very skillfully worded questions. She certainly didn't seem very tsundere to me there, lol.

Yeah, like Dr. Casey said, Haruhi probably just snapped in the heat of the moment, and said something that she shouldn't have. It happens to the best of us.

At the very least, Haruhi has at least two distinct sides to her personality. Unfortunately, we're not really getting to see the calm, thoughtful, and almost philosophical one, this year.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

At the very least, Haruhi has at least two distinct sides to her personality. Unfortunately, we're not really getting to see the calm, thoughtful, and almost philosophical one, this year.

Live Alive airs again in like three weeks.

And yeah, that final scene in Live Alive really functions as sort of an epilogue to Sighs, as well as the first half of the series in general.

[mokuseimaru]

I thought this was a pretty good one, though I had some quibbles. For one, I kept feeling like the creepy, tense music during the pond-scene was creating an inappropriate atmosphere, making Haruhi seem more diabolical than she was actually behaving. Perhaps it is simply that in Japan, everyone is always so deferential to everyone else that Haruhi's attitude there comes off as sinister---because the music made me feel like she was going to have Mikuru sacrificed to a vegetation god to ensure a good harvest instead of throw her in a somewhat dirty pond for a school-festival project. Because Haruhi is who she is, her actions obviously have results disproportionate to her intentions, but I don't that was happening here. Still, the effect was very eerie, even if I'm not quite sure it was fitting.

As for angry-Kyon scene, I'm not sure if I'm down with how they interpreted this. It the book, Haruhi is hitting Mikuru in the back of the head repeatedly to remove her contact, and when the contact doesn't cartoonishly pop out as she had expected, she hits her harder and harder. So not only did she hit Mikuru quite a bit harder than she was shown here (and with her palm as well, not her loudspeaker thingy), she was doing it for a completely ridiculous reason. That made Kyon's response much more believable---here it's still pretty believable (though maybe it's just that the music was creating the mood), but not as much as it could be. I think Kyoani has decided they can't portray Haruhi having a very real violent streak because they want to make her more sympathetic and marketable. And that's all well and good, but Haruhi's cruelty and impudence in this story are a major set up for the next majo plotline, and I can't help but feel this will reduce it's impact down the line.

So, 8/10 for me.

[siber222000]

when i saw kyon about to hit haruhi, i was like OH SH!T! then again, mikuru beam made my day

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

I thought this was a pretty good one, though I had some quibbles. For one, I kept feeling like the creepy, tense music during the pond-scene was creating an inappropriate atmosphere, making Haruhi seem more diabolical than she was actually behaving. Perhaps it is simply that in Japan, everyone is always so deferential to everyone else that Haruhi's attitude there comes off as sinister---because the music made me feel like she was going to have Mikuru sacrificed to a vegetation god to ensure a good harvest instead of throw her in a somewhat dirty pond for a school-festival project.

Yeah, I also felt that the background music during the pond-scene was a bit too creepy and tense.

Because Haruhi is who she is, her actions obviously have results disproportionate to her intentions, but I don't that was happening here. Still, the effect was very eerie, even if I'm not quite sure it was fitting.

As for angry-Kyon scene, I'm not sure if I'm down with how they interpreted this. It the book, Haruhi is hitting Mikuru in the back of the head repeatedly to remove her contact, and when the contact doesn't cartoonishly pop out as she had expected, she hits her harder and harder. So not only did she hit Mikuru quite a bit harder than she was shown here (and with her palm as well, not her loudspeaker thingy), she was doing it for a completely ridiculous reason. That made Kyon's response much more believable---here it's still pretty believable (though maybe it's just that the music was creating the mood), but not as much as it could be. I think Kyoani has decided they can't portray Haruhi having a very real violent streak because they want to make her more sympathetic and marketable. And that's all well and good, but Haruhi's cruelty and impudence in this story are a major set up for the next majo plotline, and I can't help but feel this will reduce it's impact down the line.

So, 8/10 for me.

Personally, I'm glad that they played down Haruhi's violence here. Tying Kyon's outrage to Haruhi's overall attitude strikes me as a better route to take.

Haruhi is a capable fighter, but only once has she struck me as violent. It's Haruhi's overall attitude that's the issue - not any once-in-a-blue-moon violent streak.

[Sinfully Naomi]

Kyon is now actually my fav character. <3 I swear, I hope one day Mikuru just turns around and slaps Haruhi in the face so damn hard she'll have to change the SOS Brigade symbol into a handprint.

[The Wind-up Bird]

Man that was intense. I can't help but feel sympathetic towards Kyon, even if violence isn't justified. His reaction was completelly understandable.

I feel that despite Kyon having nearly punched Haruhi, he might have the most anti-violence attitude of the group. I can't remember a scene where he had ever hit someone (even if only meekly for the sake of patronizing). Though he didn't show disapproval only to when Haruhi lightly tapped Mikuru in the Sighs arc, it is different from when Haruhi dresses Mikuru up and embarasses her around town, as tapping is "physical violence". So in this episode, I think that Kyon wasn't standing up against all that Haruhi did to Mikuru up to this point, but it was him not tolerating this one sort of behaviour, which is a completelly normal reaction. (how well would you endure a situation in which someone is being humiliated to one in which someone's being hit?)

I understand that the novels depicted Haruhi as very angry in this scene but I rather like KyoAni's approach. Haruhi's rather frustrated expression helps understand better that she isn't a sadistic tyrant but rather just unable to recognize boundaries towards others, sort of how children can lack compassion and understanding at times when their demands aren't met.

Of course, her behaviour up to that point wasn't enough to trigger such a reaction from Kyon. And though Haruhi's bossy attitude is mostly cute, after Kyon had to go through all that tension in the last days (specifically being nearly killed, possibly twice), seeing how the rest of the group must withstand it all, how Mikuru is given alcohol without her knowledge just for Haruhi's selfish goals, all that adds alot of frustration. When Kyon was humiliated after, being pratically told how insignificant he was, that just had him snap.

However, Haruhi acted alot more appalled that she probably would towards anyone else even if they had raised their hand. It shows that it all did get to her. The depression after helps understand how hard it it her. (pun intended...? )

The end was a good twist. I think anyone would be expecting Haruhi to apologize however Kyon did so instead. He didn't want to pamper her but reasoned that he hadn't really put effort in the making of the film, which does make him insignificant. And thus that doesn't justify his anger. I agree that the anger from the other SOS members would be much more justified. But while that is logical, Kyon was still in the right about Haruhi being cruel to the others, so I wondered why a stubborn guy like Kyon would actually go through it and apologize? Koizumi said once Kyon had faith in Haruhi. I think that was it.

I give this episode a 10/10 for how entertaining it was and the lot it gave me to think about.

(My apologies if some of what I wrote above isn't very understandable. My first language isn't English.)

[mokuseimaru]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yeah, I also felt that the background music during the pond-scene was a bit too creepy and tense.




Personally, I'm glad that they played down Haruhi's violence here. Tying Kyon's outrage to Haruhi's overall attitude strikes me as a better route to take.

Haruhi is a capable fighter, but only once has she struck me as violent. It's Haruhi's overall attitude that's the issue - not any once-in-a-blue-moon violent streak.

Ah, maybe the word I was looking for is "forceful" rather than violent. Few people, and especially few Japanese people, would take someone by the collar and literally drag them where they wanted to them to go like Haruhi did with Kyon.

I think the reason he "apologized" is because, looking at Taniguchi's apathy and seeing his pre-Haruhi self reflected in him, he realized that even though Haruhi usually goes to far, she at least least makes things interesting.

As for Mikuru---maybe it's just me, but outside of Haruhi's various instances of sexual harassment, I often get the feeling that her reactions are disproportionate to what Haruhi is doing to her. Now, while getting tossed in a cold pond might be very unpleasant indeed, you would think it was full of Hatefish from Yu Yu Hakusho.

[Jintor]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Obviously the real normal world (in the anime) is not normal by own standard because it has alien, esper...etc .... all was created to please Haruhi. The normal world by your definition is only for us and Kyon who try his best to not believe in the real world. The normal world by Haruhi's definition is similar to Kyon's except here she believe Mikuru is her toy (even when she spoke that out of anger, but it's truth more or less) + few other things.

I can't break through your grammar to figure out your point here.

Kyon's action of trying to force Haruhi follow his world(where Haruhi's equal like everyone) is just as selfish as Haruhi try to force Mikuru to obey her. The only exception: Kyon world is same with us so we can give him some sympathy, that's all.

There's a couple of thoughts about this that I want to share.

A) The risk of Kyon accidentally destroying the world by treating Haruhi as 'human' is, on the whole, negligable.

B) Even if he does, nobody's going to find out. :3

That said, Kyon treating Haruhi without kid-gloves could be interpreted as selfish... but only if treating a adolescent as someone who is soon to become an adult could be considered selfish. In Kyon's view, Haruhi needs to grow up. Is that a selfish view to take about an irresponsible peer?

About God, I'm pretty sure most Gods doesn't acknowledge their status as God before being judged. They always being judged first by human before being grant their status (therefore we have Devil Gods and Gods)

There's no inherent difference between Men and Gods except for Power and Acknowledgment of that power. The fact that Gods know of their power and set themselves above us is the difference that we use to judge them by 'different' standards. If Zeus walked among us as a man and knew not of his power, you can't judge him by Godly standards - because for all intents and purposes, he isn't a God. You cannot blame or judge people by actions they have no awareness that they are perpetrating. You cannot judge a sleepwalker's personality and action by the things they do while sleepwalking. "Devil Gods" and "Gods", before being considered "Devil Gods" and "Gods", are, at the first, Gods - and they know that they are, and do with their powers what they intend. Unlike Haruhi.

About the last paragraph, are you sure that you read the right experiment? I thought the one to prove "Humans will mainly follow the orders of Authority figures even if they perceive" was the one with teachers and electricity. The Stanford Prison Experiment is mainly to prove the effect of unrestrained power on human's decision (or abuse power).

Ah, you're right, I was thinking of the Milgram experiment... In any case, it's still a false comparison because the Stanford Experiment suffered from a lot of unscientific principles, probably the most apt of which could be charitably determined as 'role-playing to expectations'. If your aim was to prove that 'humans are evil', big whoop. Humans are human.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

Now, while getting tossed in a cold pond might be very unpleasant indeed, you would think it was full of Hatefish from Yu Yu Hakusho.

It's a dirty, smelling, city pond with garbage floating in it because the pond hasn't been open to the public for a while. It's not exactly the temperature that's the problem. I wouldn't even swim in my local river, let along a pond like that.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

Ah, maybe the word I was looking for is "forceful" rather than violent. Few people, and especially few Japanese people, would take someone by the collar and literally drag them where they wanted to them to go like Haruhi did with Kyon.

I see what you're saying here.

Well... I tend to see a lot of Haruhi's forcefulness as pure comedy.

Consider how Kyon never says "I can walk there myself, you know!", or how Mikuru never says "I-I-I can change with out your help, y-y-you know!".

So, since they're not taking it all that seriously, I'm not taking it all that seriously either. I just consider it pretty par for course anime comedy/surrealism... kind of like Hitagi in Bakemonogatari being able to look at her boyfriend in a poll of his own blood with out batting an eyelash.

Almost every notable anime female got their own unique surreal quirk like this. Haruhi's is dragging by the necktie. It could be a lot worse... watch any harem anime lately? At least Haruhi isn't punching Kyon into the stratosphere every time he's a wee bit too friendly towards Mikuru.

I think the reason he "apologized" is because, looking at Taniguchi's apathy and seeing his pre-Haruhi self reflected in him, he realized that even though Haruhi usually goes to far, she at least least makes things interesting.

Agreed... but I wouldn't call it an apology. He technically didn't apologize. He deserves credit for that. All he did was say something uplifting to Haruhi.

As for Mikuru---maybe it's just me, but outside of Haruhi's various instances of sexual harassment, I often get the feeling that her reactions are disproportionate to what Haruhi is doing to her. Now, while getting tossed in a cold pond might be very unpleasant indeed, you would think it was full of Hatefish from Yu Yu Hakusho.

People seem to be pretty evenly divided on the dirty cold pond dumping - you and Kaoishin not seeing it as a big deal; Akka and Vallen seeing it as pretty bad.

It's hard for me to call. Well, anyway, even if you don't think that it's a big deal, Mikuru is terrified, and that's what counts to me. I don't hold a person's fears against them... extreme whining on the other hand...

I still think, though, that Haruhi didn't see the cold pond-dumping as a big deal.

This is one instance where I really can see where everybody is coming from.

One thing that makes Haruhi a touch more sympathetic for me in this episode is... Tsuruya is cheerfully going along with her every step of the way, and Tsuruya is by no means a bad person. The girls (remember now - these are teenage girls we're talking about) are having a little bit of zany, reckless fun.

Truthfully, the only thing that Haruhi did that struck me as more than mild delinquency (hyperactive girls being hyperactive girls) is, of course, the infamous line.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

At least Haruhi isn't punching Kyon into the stratosphere every time he's a wee bit too friendly towards Mikuru.

This would be very funny if it did happen, though.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

This would be very funny if it did happen, though.

It would be hilarious to see a couple times, yeah.

[Khu]

I'd feel Kyon's pain T__T I get punched or whacked over the head everytime I'm cheeky to basically anyone...

[pirateking]

The novel portrays Haruhi as more violent and cruel to Mikuru than the anime. If you read the novel, it completely justifies Kyon's anger towards Haruhi. Kyon is hellbent on kicking Haruhi's a$$ even though Koizumi stopped him in the novel while in the anime, Kyon did it out of body reaction as he was shocked to see his own held up fist. Yeah TV censorship/tonedown sucks. Haruhi trying to tie a ponytail is probably trying to please Kyon? However she gave up the idea when Kyon saw her and she gave a freak out reaction.

Glad to know Kyon isn't afraid to stand up against someone like Haruhi despite knowing her powers and it shows Kyon is probably the only one who can stop Haruhi when the time calls for it.

Wonder if everyone would support Kyon if Nagato's the one being abused by Haruhi.