[Manga] Naruto Chapter 584 Discussion

[Knjaz]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I also have to add that it's strange how some people complain that the author shows the child Kabuto as not being evil. What do these guys expect? Do they think there are people who are born evil and others born good? This way of thinking is like racism, and it's also a very simple black and white thinking about the world. The world is more complex than evil vs good

Actually, not quite. Some people, from the very childhood, are more eager to commit something what we would call "evil".
Their special characteristic is the lack or significantly reduced feeling of compassion - they just don't *feel* bad when they're inflicting pain (be it physical or mental) or harming someone. When combined with different moral standards, we get the "truly evil" person, in our understanding. (evil, in this case - a person that wouldn't drop a single tear when harming someone for their own benefit)

So, unlike in Narutoverse, they won't be crying for someone once been shown "teh Light".

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Knjaz

Actually, not quite. Some people, from the very childhood, are more eager to commit something what we would call "evil".
Their special characteristic is the lack or significantly reduced feeling of compassion - they just don't *feel* bad when they're inflicting pain (be it physical or mental) or harming someone. When combined with different moral standards, we get the "truly evil" person, in our understanding. (evil, in this case - a person that wouldn't drop a single tear when harming someone for their own benefit)

So, unlike in Narutoverse, they won't be crying for someone once been shown "teh Light".

I was writing about normal people, not those who were born with some mental illness. Today's medical science is discoving more and more about the brain, what biochemical malfunctions cause different extreme behaviors, but in the past these people were simply said to be posessed by the devil and things like that.

As i wrote it's natural that there are differences between normal people, there's a quite large difference between Naruto and Sasuke, and my point was that Sasuke (or Gaara, Neji) ending up as evil guys is not because they were born evil, it's because they suffered many bad events. And Kabuto was never shown as being born evil, he was just a normal guy who happened to be quite intelligent, so there's no reason to say he was an evil child or something like that.

[FoxxFireArt]

More and more this Shinobi World War arc feels like the entire series is being summed up. Kabuto is likely to be killed off pretty soon. They did the whole flashback thing right before Kisame's death. Can't say I still have any sympathy for him.

NARUTO Volume 60 came out today in Japan. The cover looks pretty awesome. I wrote a blog post with a picture on Anime Vice. You can check it out HERE. Can't wait till I can find a larger picture thought.

[solidguy]

izanami: the ability to completely change/make up/ass pull ones fate.
most famous user: Kishi

[23 gundam fan]

more flashbacks huh. you cant help but to feel that kish is trying to drive home how totally messed up the ninja world is. if we are to believe oroch story, over and over this system continues to bring pain and hurt to many ninja. i found it a bit strange that when ninjas like pain and sasuke strike back at it, everyone is ready to come down on them. i guess you are supposed to just accept it and let the ninja world just piss on you, and go oh thats just how the world is. i mean lets be real here. the ninja world isnt and hasnt changed because naruto or sauske or anyone is going to nicely ask it too.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by 23 gundam fan

the ninja world isnt and hasnt changed because naruto or sauske or anyone is going to nicely ask it too.

They are not asking nicely, especially Sasuke

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by 23 gundam fan

more flashbacks huh. you cant help but to feel that kish is trying to drive home how totally messed up the ninja world is. if we are to believe oroch story, over and over this system continues to bring pain and hurt to many ninja. i found it a bit strange that when ninjas like pain and sasuke strike back at it, everyone is ready to come down on them. i guess you are supposed to just accept it and let the ninja world just piss on you, and go oh thats just how the world is. i mean lets be real here. the ninja world isnt and hasnt changed because naruto or sauske or anyone is going to nicely ask it too.

Kishi has also drove home how misguided the likes of Pain and Sasuke are in trying to change things through violence. Well, not really Sasuke since he isn't sane or intelligent enough to see the big picture and has been mostly lashing out like a hurt child. He doesn't have a cause beyond his clan. But Kishi has pointed out how their actions only continue the cycle of hate. They don't change the ninja system. If anything they only fuel it.

Only Narutism can destroy the ninja system.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by Knjaz

Actually, not quite. Some people, from the very childhood, are more eager to commit something what we would call "evil".
Their special characteristic is the lack or significantly reduced feeling of compassion - they just don't *feel* bad when they're inflicting pain (be it physical or mental) or harming someone. When combined with different moral standards, we get the "truly evil" person, in our understanding. (evil, in this case - a person that wouldn't drop a single tear when harming someone for their own benefit)

So, unlike in Narutoverse, they won't be crying for someone once been shown "teh Light".

What you are describing is a sociopath.

I think that what Kishimoto prescribes to when it comes to human behavior is something akin to the blank slate theory.

Kishimoto believes that our moral compass when we get older is greatly influenced by our life experiences which shape our perception of the world.

We aren't born bad. We aren't born good. We develop or morality as we grow.

Bad personal experiences can throw us off track but we ultimately have a choice in whether to be good or evil.

That's why characters like Kabuto, Gaara, Neji and others are portrayed as being complex individuals rather than natural villains who are just born bad and live a life committed to doing nothing but evil. Even Orochimaru and Danzou were shown to not have been born evil and simply became evil by developing a twisted mindset during their pursuit of their ambitions. They paid the consequences for following an evil path.

This is good writing by Kishimoto. I personally wanted to see the end of the battle. I don't like the stretching of back story that results in us waiting for weeks to see what happens but understand that Kishimoto is trying to tell a story beyond mindless entertainment. He trying to get the audience to think about life choices and the struggles that people go through that shapes their personality.

Kabuto's turn to evil seems a lot more understandable now and it's easy to sympathize with him. He was just an innocent kid who got caught up in Ninja politics. He had no identity and Orochimaru used that vulnerability to brain wash him turning him into the psycho that we see in the manga now.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

Kishi has also drove home how misguided the likes of Pain and Sasuke are in trying to change things through violence. Well, not really Sasuke since he isn't sane or intelligent enough to see the big picture and has been mostly lashing out like a hurt child. He doesn't have a cause beyond his clan. But Kishi has pointed out how their actions only continue the cycle of hate. They don't change the ninja system. If anything they only fuel it.

Only Narutism can destroy the ninja system.

His whole clan was destroyed including his parents by his own brother.

If you look at the flashbacks Sasuke was a happy kid whose only ambition at the time was to become a good ninja and gain some acknowledgement from his father because his brother was overshadowing him with his success.

That all changed because of the Uchiha massacre.

Sasuke went from innocent to detached and antisocial with nothing more than a fixation on revenge, which was redirected to all of Konoha after he learned the "truth" about why Itachi destroyed the clan.

Pain did more heinous things than Sasuke. Kishimoto has driven Sasuke into darkness just far enough that he is on the edge having not done anything complete unforgivable (e.g. killing the good guys). I think Sasuke is at a turning point now. The direction he goes in very much depends on what Itachi tells him and what advice he gives him.

[23 gundam fan]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

Kishi has also drove home how misguided the likes of Pain and Sasuke are in trying to change things through violence. Well, not really Sasuke since he isn't sane or intelligent enough to see the big picture and has been mostly lashing out like a hurt child. He doesn't have a cause beyond his clan. But Kishi has pointed out how their actions only continue the cycle of hate. They don't change the ninja system. If anything they only fuel it.

Only Narutism can destroy the ninja system.

please remember sasuke did not wake up one day and decide to do what he did. who started this(the ninja system) everyone just act as if that isnt the real problem here. and in the end what is naruto going to do that minato or jirarya couldnt have done to fix this world, but wait naruto going to fix the world with a speech.a.ka.(narutism) hell they could have done that. if it could have been fixed with pretty words it would have been. there have been plenty of ninja just as noble as naruto who could give a lets be friends and forgive speech, and yet there has been three ninja wars and years of strife. in other words the ninja world has been given ample time to fix this mess and stop hurting ninja like pain and sasuke, dont come to me talking about how sasuke should just hope for the best and not do anything. im not saying everything sasuke is doing is right but hell if the kaga would get it together and work together. all this killing to just protect your own stuff wouldnt have happen. i am not going jump on sasuke and ignore the fact that the kagas have a lot to answer for as far as blame goes.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by 23 gundam fan

in the end what is naruto going to do that minato or jirarya couldnt have done to fix this world, but wait naruto going to fix the world with a speech.a.ka.(narutism) hell they could have done that. if it could have been fixed with pretty words it would have been. there have been plenty of ninja just as noble as naruto who could give a lets be friends and forgive speech, and yet there has been three ninja wars and years of strife. in other words the ninja world has been given ample time to fix this mess and stop hurting ninja like pain and sasuke

This actually makes me want to pose an interesting question. Who should deserve more credit for bringing about peace to the shinobi world at the end of the day once everything is all said and done? Tobi? Or Naruto? Because without Tobi to play Lelouch as the worlds enemy, the foundation for nations to peacefully band together would not have been laid, which makes it extremely difficult to see how Naruto could accomplish his supposed destiny. In fact, one might be able to argue that Naruto doesn't need to preach to anyone at this point in the game. All he needs to do is defeat Tobi. The rest could possibly take care of itself.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by sayde

This actually makes me want to pose an interesting question. Who should deserve more credit for bringing about peace to the shinobi world at the end of the day once everything is all said and done? Tobi? Or Naruto? Because without Tobi to play Lelouch as the worlds enemy, the foundation for nations to peacefully band together would not have been laid, which makes it extremely difficult to see how Naruto could accomplish his supposed destiny. In fact, one might be able to argue that Naruto doesn't need to preach to anyone at this point in the game. All he needs to do is defeat Tobi. The rest could possibly take care of itself.

its true that the alliance was created to oppose tobi so he would be responsible in that regard. naruto still has some credit due though. when the alliance formed the ninja didn't get along and it was primarily gaara's speech that united everyone. and of course gaara is one of naruto's most notable disciples and preaches his word. naruto is also befriending all the kage so that will help in the future as well.

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

His whole clan was destroyed including his parents by his own brother.

If you look at the flashbacks Sasuke was a happy kid whose only ambition at the time was to become a good ninja and gain some acknowledgement from his father because his brother was overshadowing him with his success.

That all changed because of the Uchiha massacre.

Sasuke went from innocent to detached and antisocial with nothing more than a fixation on revenge, which was redirected to all of Konoha after he learned the "truth" about why Itachi destroyed the clan.

Pain did more heinous things than Sasuke. Kishimoto has driven Sasuke into darkness just far enough that he is on the edge having not done anything complete unforgivable (e.g. killing the good guys). I think Sasuke is at a turning point now. The direction he goes in very much depends on what Itachi tells him and what advice he gives him.

I wasn't comparing the crimes of Sasuke and Pain. Just that Sasuke doesn't have a cause beyond his clan. Unlike the three Ame orphans who tried to change the world and bring down the ninja system run by the large ninja villages. That is why they formed the terrorist organization Akatsuki. They were well intentioned extremists.

While a victim of the ninja system, Sasuke isn't doing anything to change it. His actions are only continuing it. That is why I said he doesn't see the big picture. He is just acting selfishly with his own revenge in mind. Nagato, Yahiko, and Kanon were scarred by the ninja system like Sasuke, but at least tried to bring about a better world, before Yahiko's murder and Nagato's breakdown. As extreme as their measures were.

[23 gundam fan]

Originally Posted by sayde

This actually makes me want to pose an interesting question. Who should deserve more credit for bringing about peace to the shinobi world at the end of the day once everything is all said and done? Tobi? Or Naruto? Because without Tobi to play Lelouch as the worlds enemy, the foundation for nations to peacefully band together would not have been laid, which makes it extremely difficult to see how Naruto could accomplish his supposed destiny. In fact, one might be able to argue that Naruto doesn't need to preach to anyone at this point in the game. All he needs to do is defeat Tobi. The rest could possibly take care of itself.

i was just thinking about that myself. there does seem to be a code geass thing going on here with tobi and sasuke. first it was sasuke attacking killerbee that got the kaga off there asses to meet . and the united alliance came about because of tobi starting the fourth ninja war. so in a roundabout way tobi and sasuke indirectly may have brought about the first real steps to peace. of course that is not how they planned this in there minds.....or is it hmm.(its kish world we just live in it)

[Artimus_Prime]

IMO izanami has already "decided" kabuto's destiny... He will release edo tensei. There have been direct references to the jutsu in the flashbacks already. By the time it's over itachi will know the hand seals

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

I wasn't comparing the crimes of Sasuke and Pain. Just that Sasuke doesn't have a cause beyond his clan. Unlike the three Ame orphans who tried to change the world and bring down the ninja system run by the large ninja villages. That is why they formed the terrorist organization Akatsuki. They were well intentioned extremists.

While a victim of the ninja system, Sasuke isn't doing anything to change it. His actions are only continuing it. That is why I said he doesn't see the big picture. He is just acting selfishly with his own revenge in mind. Nagato, Yahiko, and Kanon were scarred by the ninja system like Sasuke, but at least tried to bring about a better world, before Yahiko's murder and Nagato's breakdown. As extreme as their measures were.

Well, Nagato was victim of war, Sasuke is the victim of betrayal. Both are the results of a cold and ruthless ninja system but I don't think it's simply a matter of seeing the "big picture". Because Nagato, Yahiko and Konan were all war orphans it's natural they'd dedicate their lives to ending war--it was war that took away their families and devastated their lives. But Sasuke's family was murdered in cold blood and specific people were responsible for it, the natural reaction would be a desire to see those people punished. I think had Sasuke's family been killed in battle, his current motives would be completely different.

Though really Nagato's not more enlightened than Sasuke when it comes to revenge. After Hanzo killed Yahiko (well, caused him to commit suicide). Nagato became Pein, murdered Hanzo, killed all his family/friends and took his seat as leader of the Rain village. It was after he satisfied his revenge that he focused on "bettering" the world.

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

IMO izanami has already "decided" kabuto's destiny... He will release edo tensei. There have been direct references to the jutsu in the flashbacks already. By the time it's over itachi will know the hand seals

Yeah, I think you're right. These flashbacks are probably the result of izanami. It's probably causing Kabuto to relive his life right now and giving Itachi what he needs to end the jutsu

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Yeah, I think you're right. These flashbacks are probably the result of izanami. It's probably causing Kabuto to relive his life right now and giving Itachi what he needs to end the jutsu

Regardless of if it's true or even likely, it would fit nicely with the "knowledge can be more important than jutsu and weapon" we were feed this chapter.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

I wasn't comparing the crimes of Sasuke and Pain. Just that Sasuke doesn't have a cause beyond his clan. Unlike the three Ame orphans who tried to change the world and bring down the ninja system run by the large ninja villages. That is why they formed the terrorist organization Akatsuki. They were well intentioned extremists.

While a victim of the ninja system, Sasuke isn't doing anything to change it. His actions are only continuing it. That is why I said he doesn't see the big picture. He is just acting selfishly with his own revenge in mind. Nagato, Yahiko, and Kanon were scarred by the ninja system like Sasuke, but at least tried to bring about a better world, before Yahiko's murder and Nagato's breakdown. As extreme as their measures were.

Yeah, you have a point there.

Sasuke can't see beyond his clan. Kakashi tried to get through to him that he is more than his clan but Sasuke has developed a superiority complex derived from the persecution of his clan and the perception that they are feared because of their power.

He has no interest in fixing the Ninja system or bringing about peace, only revenge for the Uchiha and restoring their reputation as the best Ninjas.

[Aqua Knight]

Come on. Put yourself in Sasuke's shoes:

If your family/relatives were all killed + betrayed and you are a 16 y.o. teenager, what would you rather do:

Try to get revenge
or
Try to see the big picture in the world and understand that hatred and murder can't be ended with hatred and murder

Of course Sasuke's revenge has gone over the top - killing Konoha, but at least he's simple to understand. I know mixing reality and manga where you can summon giant frogs and foxes is crazy, but still...

If I were Sasuke I'd gain for intel, get revenge directly on people who were responsible , then try to reestablish the clan, though it's impossible as you are a international criminal then

[a3jay14]

Its funny when tobi told sasuke the "truth" about itachi murdering the whole clan by orders of the leaf higher ups. Sasuke has now becoming a pet of tobi just like nagato by just using words. Tobi never mentioned that he also wanted to massacre the uchiha clan since they "betrayed" him, he never told his involvement. Itachi on the other hand knew tobi's plan he massacred the clan not because of the coup de etat but because thats the only way he can save sasuke. If tobi kills all the uchiha clan, sasuke would definitely perish. This is the reason why sasuke is attacking konoha he knows nothing he was told only lies.