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Old 2014-10-08, 07:03   Link #8481
Ithekro
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Because of the need for firepower against the likes of Black Forest Peak, I'll assume Crusader IIIs with the 6 pounders (as oppose to having the 2 pounder like all the Matilda IIs, though it would make buying shells easier). The Cromwell is handy as it gives them something to poke the heavier late war German tanks and tank destroyers along with the Churchill VII.
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Old 2014-10-08, 07:29   Link #8482
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legna View Post
Key word here isn't "desperate". It's "trololo mode". Was suggested as a way for even a puny Panzer III to take out a Tortoise, in order to point and laugh afterwards. Follow-up sending of Pz III models for Xmas gifts to the Tortoise crew mandatory.
Using the Stielgranate requires a gunner to step out and place the darn thing over the muzzle like a rifle grenade. It is highly questionable any maneuvers will be possible after that - it is for antitank guns, not tanks. There is no percentage in a team filled with heavy tanks to resort to this measure.

Quote:
But anyway. "Favourite line-ups" for GuP have been proven to be pointless because GuP has proven time after time it's not about which tank is better, but about which player uses them best. More than favourite line-ups there should be "favourite tactic that is not make a straigh tline, charge frontally and UTE UTE UTE".
Spoiler for Example of above:
Actually, GuP says where one side makes some gross errors, it is possible for the inferior team to win, and even then they need a base (note how the Panzer IV was updated twice and the 38(t) into a Hetzer).

Spoiler:
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Old 2014-10-08, 08:13   Link #8483
Joachim1167
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, GuP says where one side makes some gross errors, it is possible for the inferior team to win, and even then they need a base (note how the Panzer IV was updated twice and the 38(t) into a Hetzer).
Let's not forget the harder hitting Porsche Tiger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Because of the need for firepower against the likes of Black Forest Peak, I'll assume Crusader IIIs with the 6 pounders (as oppose to having the 2 pounder like all the Matilda IIs, though it would make buying shells easier). The Cromwell is handy as it gives them something to poke the heavier late war German tanks and tank destroyers along with the Churchill VII.
Still no Fireflys or Comets. You'd think they would have at least one vehicle with a 17 pounder.
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Old 2014-10-08, 09:50   Link #8484
arkhangelsk
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Darjeeling is supposedly thinking of how she can get the Cromwell to be upgraded to a Challenger next year (given the extent of the mods, trying to acquire a new Challenger seems faster).

Overall, the Gekkan Senshado tries to play to the theme established by the BD booklet, with the result that getting vehicles is hard. A further theme is that vehicles are bleeding expensive. According to the story, in essence St. Glorianna is getting stretched just fielding what was up there (usually, 2 of 11 Matildas are not in regular operation, but they make an extra effort for the semi-finals and finals), plus the Matilda faction is very powerful and would prefer to drain resources towards putting more non-operaional Matildas into operation.
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Old 2014-10-08, 12:00   Link #8485
Joachim1167
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Kay should "Lend-Lease" a Firefly or two to Darjeeling the next time St. Gloriana fights Kuromorimine.
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Old 2014-10-08, 13:31   Link #8486
legna
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
iit is for antitank guns, not tanks. There is no percentage in a team filled with heavy tanks to resort to this measure.
Except the one mentioned already TWICE of the "trololo"factor, under the influence of copious ammounts of Oktobeerfest. I can't quite believe that mentioning twice that this was meant as a joke tactic has not been enough to make it clear that it was meant as a joke tactic. Maybe if I mention it for a third time?
Spoiler for One-shot trick:
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Old 2014-10-08, 19:23   Link #8487
arkhangelsk
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First, trololo is a bit of an obscure reference. More importantly, you are not getting what I'm saying. Whether this will actually be funny can be debated, but the simple fact of life is that Kuromorimine has no need for such a tactic. So making them do it anyway to meet a certain theatric demand will simply look cheap and desperate. Hetzer running under Maus looked good not only b/c of good execution, but because we can accept they had few alternatives. If Kuromorimie does it with a Tortoise (maybe using a Panzer IV/70), it'd look much less good simply because they had a choice.

As for the Heuschrecke, in such cases, just write the German since "Brown Locust" gives me a bunch of descriptions on the insect. You can tell much about the overall quality of the idea when it didn't pique even Hitler's Wunderwaffe interest. BTW, you are supposed to hand over your vehicle data bf the match so everyone will kind of know what games you might try to play anyway. Overall, it just ain't worth it, and trying to pretend it is will again, look unimpressive.
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Old 2014-10-08, 20:30   Link #8488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joachim1167 View Post
Kay should "Lend-Lease" a Firefly or two to Darjeeling the next time St. Gloriana fights Kuromorimine.
I'll have a good laugh if they fielded a TOG2.
They could just sit there drinking tea and scones while the battleship moves slowly shooting everything in sight.
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Old 2014-10-08, 20:53   Link #8489
legna
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Quote:
no need for such a tactic
I tried three times to get you to understand that's a goddamn joke tactic, not a "viable" or a "needed" one. I yield: you seem to be unable to grasp that concept, and I have no interest in explaining it a fourth time.
Quote:
Wunderwaffe
if you google the vehicle, you'll see it was done back when the Panzer IV was cutting edge tech. A wee bit before Wunderwaffe time
Quote:
supposed to hand over your vehicle data bf the match
Contradicted by canon, as Oarai was seen on screen being actually surprised by a Maus' presence. Fanon < Canon, and what's actually seen on screen > all other sources.
Spoiler for :
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Old 2014-10-08, 21:24   Link #8490
arkhangelsk
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Whether a "joke" or "drama" tactic winds up working on screen depends on a variety of factors, such as the intrinsic funniness/drama of the concept (which is IMO poor in any case), execution (can't evaluate that based on your text, so a neutral here), but one factor that definitely works against it is if it looks like it was inserted without necessity (as you admit).

It would seem Heuschrecke's predecessor (without self turret removal capability) indeed started in 1939, but the prototype of the proper model only started in 1942. Besides, Hitler is Hitler.

The charm of the Heuschrecke is that after letting the turret go, what's left of the vehicle can be used as a ammo carrier, a capability that's not very necessary in Tankery.

As for the whole hand over issue, in addition to the published rules, you actually see the data sheets at least twice in show - in Ep8 when Miho works and in OVA7 where you see them in Italian and Japanese language. Trying to use your interpretation of Sodoko not instantly recognizing a Maus is an extremely thin reed in the face of that.
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Old 2014-10-09, 02:15   Link #8491
LoweGear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
As for the whole hand over issue, in addition to the published rules, you actually see the data sheets at least twice in show - in Ep8 when Miho works and in OVA7 where you see them in Italian and Japanese language. Trying to use your interpretation of Sodoko not instantly recognizing a Maus is an extremely thin reed in the face of that.
Actually, there's a second case where they don't have the info from the tank's opposing team: remember that they did now know of the existence of the Carro Armato P40 until Yukari's espionage, and all the data they gathered from it are from the History Club's own books in general. So while they do and can have datasheets on the opposing team's tanks, it does seem like this isn't a perfect system where they know everything about their opponents.
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Old 2014-10-09, 02:29   Link #8492
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Actually, there's a second case where they don't have the info from the tank's opposing team: remember that they did now know of the existence of the Carro Armato P40 until Yukari's espionage, and all the data they gathered from it are from the History Club's own books in general. So while they do and can have datasheets on the opposing team's tanks, it does seem like this isn't a perfect system where they know everything about their opponents.
Look at 10:11 - Anzio has provided a beautiful sheet marked SEGRETO with the basics of the P40. The Japanese version on the left hand bottom side has more details on the P40 (frankly, more than what was seen on Caesar's "combini-copy".)

There is a bit of a dichotomy between the need for reconaisssance and the presence of these sheets. But there are some rationalizations I've read. For example, the sheets may be provided very late - here they seem to have come the afternoon before the match. They also don't provide quantities and it may be possible to deliberately include more types than you'd wind up using.

Nevertheless, any type you do use have to be entered, so its value is quite limited.
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Old 2014-10-09, 03:41   Link #8493
Ithekro
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Given Miho's thoughts on what Black Forest would use, we can see that no only do they not know what was coming, Miho didn't know what was coming. I recall the Tiger IIs and JadgTiger seem to be unknowns to her and she was estimating a lot more Panthers than actually were there without a mention of the Jadgpanzer IVs. (it has been a while since I watched that episode). The Maus comes out of nowhere. Considering this was her school the previous year, they must have done something vey different when they lost to Pravda.

They don't know what Sanders or Anzio are going to use until Yukari's spy mission. I don't recall how much Miho has on Pravda right before the battle.

It seems like all tanks have a standardize entry in the sport and those can probably be obtained through channels if the school doesn't have them left over from a previous year.

While it may be standard for the teams to send the foundation-federation (whatever the term is) all the tanks they plan to use in the battle for inspection and to update the Jumbo-Tron, that data might not be given to the other teams. Even the other school spectators seemed surprised by the Maus even though it being part of the team should have been up on the huge tv screen the entire time.

Also for Anzio, later on, even though the types of tanks were known, it wasn't until they counted the total number of tanks sighted that they figured something was wrong, as they were only allowed 10 tanks, not eleven without seeing the P40 anywhere.
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Old 2014-10-09, 05:43   Link #8494
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Given Miho's thoughts on what Black Forest would use, we can see that no only do they not know what was coming, Miho didn't know what was coming. I recall the Tiger IIs and JadgTiger seem to be unknowns to her and she was estimating a lot more Panthers than actually were there without a mention of the Jadgpanzer IVs. (it has been a while since I watched that episode).
It is 4:00 of Ep10. Miho explicitly mentions the Tiger (circling one tank), Panther (circling the rear row of ten tanks) and Jagdpanther (circling an twelfth). If we assume she's going in the sequence of "biggest threats", then one can argue she did not know about the King Tiger and Jadgtiger, but to even infer she did not know about the Jadgpanzer IV is already hard to defend (since they will probably be rated lower than the Panthers as a firepower threat).

Another interpretation is that she actually knows, but reckons within the tank fleet it is in fact the more mobile, not the heaviest gunned units that are more dangerous. So the King Tiger, Elefant and Jadgtiger were known, but she actually rated them as lower threats overall, at least while they were in the field.

Quote:
They don't know what Sanders or Anzio are going to use until Yukari's spy mission. I don't recall how much Miho has on Pravda right before the battle.
You see the sheets on 8:46 of Ep8. We definitely saw Anzio's sheets.

Quote:
While it may be standard for the teams to send the foundation-federation (whatever the term is) all the tanks they plan to use in the battle for inspection and to update the Jumbo-Tron, that data might not be given to the other teams.
Since we actually see Italian-stamped sheets from Anzio, that seems unlikely.

Quote:
Even the other school spectators seemed surprised by the Maus even though it being part of the team should have been up on the huge tv screen the entire time.
I'll call their reaction breathtaken at actually that beast moving, raher than being surprised by the existence. They are like "出った…マウス", so they knew that it was coming, just not exactly how.

Quote:
Also for Anzio, later on, even though the types of tanks were known, it wasn't until they counted the total number of tanks sighted that they figured something was wrong, as they were only allowed 10 tanks, not eleven without seeing the P40 anywhere.
I'll say the value of reconaissance is
A) So you know what types you are facing earlier than the afternoon before the match (this is my speculation, but this whole mutual information rule may have been put in to partially neutralize the advantage in intelligence some schools would have. St G, for example, has a specialized unit just to gather external intelligence)
B) So you know things like the deployment (3-tank platoons, 5-tank platoons) and the number of each type (which as far as can be seen is not included on the sheet).
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Old 2014-10-09, 06:14   Link #8495
LoweGear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Look at 10:11 - Anzio has provided a beautiful sheet marked SEGRETO with the basics of the P40. The Japanese version on the left hand bottom side has more details on the P40 (frankly, more than what was seen on Caesar's "combini-copy".)
This doesn't actually make a lot of sense if you think about it: Why would Anzio provide sheets labeled "Secret" if they know they needed to hand them out to their enemies before the match anyway? Also, the CV33 and Semovente are known elements, so why do they also have the "Segreto" tag on them?

The only theory about the datasheets I can think up is that they're not datasheets provided by the schools, but rather datasheets provided by the Japanese Senshado Federation on request. The JSF would need to have approved the P40 for use before allowing it to participate in battle and thus would have knowledge of it. However, the theory I have is that the JSF will provide info for only the tanks that the requester asks for, thus if the school requesting the information doesn't know what tanks to search up info for, they won't get the information. Note of course they didn't have the info on the P40 before Yukari's infiltration, and yet suddenly have the datasheet afterwards.

It would be quite silly for the schools to have to perform infiltrations to look up their opponent's tank composition (not even their formation and numbers, just what types they're fielding) when they know they'll get the required info from the schools or the JSF before the match eventually.
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Old 2014-10-09, 07:30   Link #8496
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
This doesn't actually make a lot of sense if you think about it: Why would Anzio provide sheets labeled "Secret" if they know they needed to hand them out to their enemies before the match anyway? Also, the CV33 and Semovente are known elements, so why do they also have the "Segreto" tag on them?
Two possible meanings - one, it indicates that they are sheets used internally rather than just something made up for external consumption. Further, by putting a Secret stamp on it, it means those cleared to see it are restricted from spreading the information around. So Oarai is honor (or maybe even regulation) bound to not leak it to oh, St. Glorianna for example.
Quote:
The only theory about the datasheets I can think up is that they're not datasheets provided by the schools, but rather datasheets provided by the Japanese Senshado Federation on request. The JSF would need to have approved the P40 for use before allowing it to participate in battle and thus would have knowledge of it. However, the theory I have is that the JSF will provide info for only the tanks that the requester asks for, thus if the school requesting the information doesn't know what tanks to search up info for, they won't get the information. Note of course they didn't have the info on the P40 before Yukari's infiltration, and yet suddenly have the datasheet afterwards.
A JSF datasheet theory you are going to have to deal with the fact they are Italian. Further, the JSF must be a very rapid bureaucracy according to your theory - they submitted requests for the CV33 and Semovente. They then find out about the P40 in the morning and can get the data set to include it in the afternoon.
You also have to consider the evidence of the latest BD (OVA7) booklet, where it explicitly says even a particularly realistic dummy is not only to be applied for, but your opponent will be informed of the dummy.
Quote:
It would be quite silly for the schools to have to perform infiltrations to look up their opponent's tank composition (not even their formation and numbers, just what types they're fielding) when they know they'll get the required info from the schools or the JSF before the match eventually.
Considering the data seems to arrive the afternoon (24 hours, maybe less) before the match, getting the data even a bit sooner can be most beneficial. Further, it may be the only way to make decisions long term - for example, you will have to be more proactive if you want to buy tanks to counter the opponents' tanks.
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Old 2014-10-09, 08:54   Link #8497
YF19EX
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http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...ry-film/.79738
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Old 2014-10-09, 09:34   Link #8498
Joachim1167
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We need a Top Gear UK GuP special. Filmed entirely at Bovington.

Script highlights:

Jeremy Clarkson offending people. Mainly Germans.

James May doing a segment on WWII British tanks and their development. Co-hosted by Eri Kitamura (in costume of course).

Clarkson and Richard Hammond doing their take on the American Sensha-Do Unlimited League Challenge (Ferrari 6L V12 twin-turbo engine somehow fitted in a CV-33). Presenter's "Italian Sports Tank" vs. Tiger 131 driven by The Stig in a 1-lap race around the proving grounds. Presenter tank passes Stig. 131 cannon fires and Presenter tank explodes. Stig wins.

Ikumi Nakagami (in costume of course) running wild around the museum gushing about selected tanks...and eventually having to be escorted out by law enforcement.

Mai Fuchigami and Rie Tanaka racing each other (in costume of course) in the "Star in a Reasonably Priced Armoured Car" segment.
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Old 2014-10-09, 13:35   Link #8499
Ithekro
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I would consider the data sheets to be stylized. A lot of games do that for style rather than need. I could easily see the JSF having sheets of all tanks in the style of their country of origin for flavor. Remember that all the schools are Japanese. There is no reason to have a data sheet in any other language other than style by the JSF.

Since they do it twice, it makes sense that the data is not given out to the schools unless specifically requested. That or the History Club made those data sheets and being the History Club, made them look authentic with some Italian.
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Old 2014-10-10, 00:15   Link #8500
ramlaen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Because of the need for firepower against the likes of Black Forest Peak, I'll assume Crusader IIIs with the 6 pounders (as oppose to having the 2 pounder like all the Matilda IIs, though it would make buying shells easier). The Cromwell is handy as it gives them something to poke the heavier late war German tanks and tank destroyers along with the Churchill VII.
Spoiler for large image:
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