2012-06-27, 20:06 | Link #29401 | |
The True Culprit
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You can't KILL ideas. You can't DESTROY concepts. A thought cannot cease to exist. Even if Shannon or Kanon ever take control of the body until Yasu dies, the possibility still exists that they COULD, Yasu only has to choose to let them. So long as Yasu lives, they are all technically alive. It's more like going to sleep, and it's indeed what it's usually compared to in REAL Multiple Personality Syndrome.
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2012-06-27, 20:11 | Link #29402 |
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Join Date: Jun 2012
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See this is what I don't like about Yasu. The fact that people think she has MPD or DID whatever you want to call it but I personally do not believe that at all. I actually think that Yasu is just a very good actress. I think that she just gets into character very well. Like a dumb example of what I'm talking about is let's say Roger from American Dad. Roger has several characters and gives them there own stories and actually plays the roll of the characters. So this is what I believe Yasu does. If this is a mental disorder I have no idea what it's called.
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2012-06-27, 20:32 | Link #29403 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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2012-06-27, 20:49 | Link #29404 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Hm. I agree with LyricalAura. I think, in Umineko's conceit about how these things "work", when Shannon or Kanon is claimed to be dead, we can pretty much consider them destroyed forever, and unable to use the body again.
The only kerfuffle present is the "zombie Shkanon" that occurs in Banquet. (Am I using that right? When the body is doing things with no readily identified personality available to do them?) And I'd more readily put that down to a fault in Ryu's writing than a fault in the idea behind it. I also thought we were all in mass agreement that Yasu totally does not at all have some kind of MPD. |
2012-06-27, 21:14 | Link #29406 | ||||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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It's pretty bad IMO. It pretty much ignores Battler's and Shannon's say in what their partner does to fulfill their love. Also, although KNM accounts for Beatrice not having a real chance at winning being because her victory includes her own suicide, he doesn't really account for why the duel is between Shannon and Kanon- why would they be the belligerents?- like, why would Kanon have a need to metaphorically or actually destroy Shannon? The instigators of the whole problem are Rosa and George! ShKanonTrice is by far the better interpretation for the love duel. Even KNM would probably admit so. Quote:
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2012-06-27, 21:32 | Link #29407 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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2012-06-27, 21:36 | Link #29408 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Yes. It's really a nuisance that we can't talk about Shannon and Kanon without ending up using terms like "personality" when they're totally inaccurate. As far as I'm concerned, the author just decided to reify her personal problems as three people who share a body on her game board and fight each other. It's a literary condition, like Gregor Samson turning into a cockroach.
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2012-06-27, 22:27 | Link #29409 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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If Eva was chosen as the bribed/threatened sibling this game, then she could have been deliberately lured into having no alibi for Rosa's murder despite never actually leaving her room. Then for 7-8, Beatrice could have spiked the coffee with Rosa's missing sedatives so that the already-exhausted survivors would fall asleep, and she could strangle Krauss and Natsuhi and drag them away at leisure.
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2012-06-27, 23:55 | Link #29411 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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2012-06-27, 23:58 | Link #29412 | |
Senior Member
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When she decides that her love for Battler (and thus a more overarching spiritual connection) is more important than her relationship with George (and fulfilling the concept of a classical girl) or her feelings towards Jessica (and being a rather typical example of a boy) she tosses those longings aside and any action towards those becomes meaningless. This doesn't mean that she can't act in a fashion that would indicate her return to such a state of mind and thus be interpreted by an outside observer as her being "that person again", but that does not mean that she is any longer actively pursuing this idea...which is why Kanon is the witches furniture in EP2 and nothing more than a ghost summoned by the witch in EP3. It's basically likening the act of abandoning a goal to killing a part of yourself. And this is possible to portray in Umineko as killing somebody because it has been established long and excessively that everybody carries different personas within that are used depending on the circumstance. Like Nice-Mama and Possessed-Mama or Kinzô and Goldsmith or Nice Daughter Jessica and School Jessica. Had they not the same appearance they would appear as completely different people to an outside observer and one suddenly disappearing would be as if that one person suddenly died. I still think, and I will stay by that position, that people are still trying too hard to actually push the idea of Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice appearing as different people on the island forward. The only people still alive who were on the island that day are a wheelchair-bound insomniac who talks in riddles and a crazy old lady who refuses to talk. Ange would probably not even remember two servants that she met 1, 2 times a year for 2 days between 1 and 5 years old. |
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2012-06-28, 01:55 | Link #29413 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Yeah, I think Ryukishi screwed up with that ONE red, the "6 people: Shannon, Kanon, Genji, Kumasawa, Gohda, and Kinzo are dead!" one. Every other red in the game can be interpreted without resorting to multiple personalities - you can say that "Shannon is dead" means that Yasu's feelings for George are dead, and so on. But that one red actually defines Shannon and Kanon as "people", which really bugs me. It seems like Ryukishi wanted to let people decide their own interpretation of Yasu, but this one red really restricts it, and it's not even NECESSARY to define them as six people to make that red actually work in the context. I have no idea why he did it, and I think a lot of people would be happier with the resolution if this one red was just worded differently.
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2012-06-28, 02:29 | Link #29414 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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I have to wonder whether Japanese readers really had the same gripe about it, because it looks like a translation issue to me. The word that was translated as "people" is a somewhat broader category in Japanese that includes a variety of things that are sufficiently person-ish.
Something similar happens in English with the word "men". I can say "There were six men in the room" and "The army was a million men strong", but the first one refers to males and the second one doesn't specify.
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Last edited by LyricalAura; 2012-06-28 at 08:15. |
2012-06-28, 03:12 | Link #29415 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
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You know what I actually wonder if the whole reason we even question the true theory is because of translation. Maybe in Japan the actual story is written without all these confusing things. But I don't know if anyone can read japanese and actually say this is wrong which it most likely is.
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2012-06-28, 04:01 | Link #29416 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I think that in the end you still end up in a matter of philosophical interpretation that defies common sense. Anyway I'm one of those who doesn't flat out dismiss the possibility that Yasu actually has a multiple personality disorder in R07's view. Of course you can say: that's not how DID is supposed to work. Yeah, no doubt about that but two things: 1) MPD or DID is a disorder that has always been contested and it still is. In other words it might not even exist as it is intended and in the ages its definition has been changed and manipulated dozen of times until it completely changed name. So in the end you might be arguig about the lack of realism in something that doesn't even exist in the first place. I mean... 30 years ago you would claim that MPD works in a way that it is now denied. 2) The fact that it's not how DID is supposed to work doesn't mean that it's not DID. You'd have a hard time convincing me that R07 wouldn't "do it wrong" or that he would bother with being absoluely realist or that he wouldn't make use of overused narrative gimmicks. After all in there is a wide narrative where MPD was used wrongly, why do you think R07 would be different?
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2012-06-28, 04:28 | Link #29417 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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I would say if Shannon is never reactivated then she is dead. Ignoring that Ry7 once defined dead as unable to act even if they have not physically passed yet, even the death you describe is not permanent. Not only can we not say that people can't be revived in the future, but you can still meet the medical criteria for dead and be revived by resuscitation. Does this mean the person was never dead? Death by common definition is actually not always all that permanent.
But yes, I believe it more likely Ry7 sort of half made up a condition which does not exist, but can be inferred from his clues. I agree with the body definition of existing, and doesn't it just seem like a trick Beato would love? This isn't just fanboyism, this is because if I were Ry7 creating the reds, I would know that EXACTLY what they said would become a matter of vital importance to any reader who cared, and therefore the wording would be more important than a mistake in the white. I really just hope he gave it the thought it deserved. I also agree that it isn't cheating for Beato to perfectly imitate kanon's voice (if this even happened at all let's not forget). If you were able to perfectly emulate someone's voice, it doesn't mean that you are them, even if you pretend to be. |
2012-06-28, 08:25 | Link #29419 | ||||
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Join Date: May 2009
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...by the way, what the hell is up with that ep4 red about Kanon being the ninth victim? Victim of what? Who was in "Kyrie's group?" What was the point of that red at all? It seems designed to anchor the fantasy story around some real sequence of events, but it's entirely pointless to use Kanon's "death" as an anchor for anything because it can happen at an arbitrary time and place and be reversed at will. Quote:
This does open the door to the other First Twilight victims being alive, but it doesn't mean they have to be. You could put on a production of Julius Caesar where Caesar's actor is literally stabbed to death, but Brutus's actor dies a stage death. It would then be borderline acceptable to say Caesar and Brutus are dead. But you can't ever actually know which of the two is the case, so it would swing some doors wide open. That's just a consequence of the (supposedly intentional) imperfect definition. It's still stupid, and Banquet would've been greatly improved without the red in it at all. Quote:
But if Shannon is never reactivated, she isn't actually dead until the point where she cannot be reactivated (i.e. the death of the host). "That is not dead which can eternal lie." Quote:
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2012-06-28, 09:07 | Link #29420 |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Well the issue may be resolved, if we look at Nanjo's death in Banquet... If ShKanonTrice is really dead since the 1st twilight, then Battler's blue truth in EP4 would be right... Until today it was never disproved, that someone killed Nanjo and died afterwards for some reason and was then deemed "dead" by Eva-Beatrice's red truth. If Battler's blue is wrong, then it means ShKanonTrice must be alive.
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