Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Second Season - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Galerian

No, the majority of americans just elected one to run your country...twice! Ooh snap!

Seriously. It had an ''! You are not to take statements seriously at all if they are followed by an ''. If it was a little insulting. Sorry. Although I think you are being a bit uptight about the matter.

Quit flaming others. Quote your points in a less sarcastic and more professional manner.

I think in the rationale of war, attacking your enemy's supply line is probably one of the easier operations you can carry out. First supply to attack : money. It is a flexible resource and a medium for trade.

[Galerian]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Quote your points in a less sarcastic

Although I am being lighthearted and whimsical about the matter, there was no sarcasm in the part of my post you quoted. I apologized for the perceived offense, but respectfully added that he/she shouldn't be so uptight. Like yourself. No need to go on the offensive yourself by shouting 'flame'.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Galerian

About the poppy-burning. I find it a bit hard to swallow that the approach to this development-related problem hasn't been improved during nearly the 400 years that have passed. It is easy to burn a poppy field, but most farmers are being forced to cultivate this highly provitable crop due to poor economic circumstances and the lack of alternatives for poor peasants. These bad economic circumstances are of course a lot harder to solve, and I found it a bit dumb that CB would burn a poppy field in order to demonstrate their commitment to end wars. They probably just destroyed a single harvest, making little difference in the long run. A more suitable target could have been chosen imo. The burning of harvests does of course serve a tactical goal in wars like afghanistan. Coalition forces deny their terrorist enemy an immediate source of income. This situation can of course not be compared with CB's goals.

Poppy-burning might be an accepted tactic, but whether it is an effective one in the long run, is debatable.

Ah, but there IS a solution. The global food crisis has increased the sale-price of wheat to the extent that farmers in Afghanistan are changing crops from poppy to wheat. They make more money this way, with the only problem that they risked being robbed on the way home from the market because they wouldn't get Al Qaeda protection.

Frankly, you can't fault CB for burning poppies. There is no law against it, literally.

[miles316]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Ah, but there IS a solution. The global food crisis has increased the sale-price of wheat to the extent that farmers in Afghanistan are changing crops from poppy to wheat. They make more money this way, with the only problem that they risked being robbed on the way home from the market because they wouldn't get Al Qaeda protection.

Frankly, you can't fault CB for burning poppies. There is no law against it, literally.

Aiolia stated in his video manifesto that criminals groups were one of their targets of interventions. Drug growing/traffickers are criminal organizations.

[miles316]

why is every one trying to justify Nena massacre of Louise family she came upon the chateau by chance it could have been any other gathering a carnival, festival even The Canne film festival. The minute Nena got a look at some one being happy and having a good time the psycho would have gone off. We would have a bunch of dead film makers and stars in stead of a dead rich family.

[kakakka]

Originally Posted by dahak

The Thrones had less compunction. The Halvey wedding being the worst example we saw.

Okay lets say, CB never , in their ideals, intended to target civilians. The Thrones (Nena) smashed that wedding, just because she likes to, not for the sake of CB's ideaology. The Thrones never truly understand Aeolia's ideal's anyway, so yeah.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by kakakka

Okay lets say, CB never , in their ideals, intended to target civilians. The Thrones (Nena) smashed that wedding, just because she likes to, not for the sake of CB's ideaology. The Thrones never truly understand Aeolia's ideal's anyway, so yeah.

Technically the Thrones were not suppose to gatecrash weddings anyway. Even though they were heavy-handed and excessive, they were heavy-handed for a purpose. You can't treat something Nena did on her own, the same way as something she did according to her orders.

Neither are nice things, but Nena had to take sole responsibility for the wedding thing.

[kakakka]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Technically the Thrones were not suppose to gatecrash weddings anyway. Even though they were heavy-handed and excessive, they were heavy-handed for a purpose. You can't treat something Nena did on her own, the same way as something she did according to her orders.

Neither are nice things, but Nena had to take sole responsibility for the wedding thing.

That's what I want to say, but I guess I need to learn more of English grammar

[Galerian]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Frankly, you can't fault CB for burning poppies. There is no law against it, literally.

Oh, I am not. I just think they should have picked a more suitable target. One that would contribute more to their long term agenda. Also, it is true the global food crisis has some strange possitive effects on this problem. However, you can't rely on this crisis to provide a solution in the long run. The point still stands though that 00 universe's solution for drugs-production hasn't evolved one bit from today. I don't expect the 00 writers to actually think up a good solution, but the problem was portrayed a bit too simple. Burning=good. Which is debatable. I am not to say burning= not good. It just won't solve the problem in the long run.

As for the wedding thing: that nurses wonder what the Havely family had to with war is perfectly logical seeing as they were attacked by CB, the anti-war idealists. It does not however mean the families involved had anything to do with war at all. Even if they did and both families were evil to the max. It was a wedding! Think of the children! Besides; everything points out that this was an impulsive act of evil by Nena. They were having fun, while she was bored, thus they had to die. Evil in my book. Your defense of Nena is too far-fetched imo.

[LordStrike]

Originally Posted by kakakka

Okay lets say, CB never , in their ideals, intended to target civilians. The Thrones (Nena) smashed that wedding, just because she likes to, not for the sake of CB's ideaology. The Thrones never truly understand Aeolia's ideal's anyway, so yeah.

they were never included in the plan so they will never understand the ideals.

Originally Posted by Galerian

Oh, I am not. I just think they should have picked a more suitable target. One that would contribute more to their long term agenda. Also, it is true the global food crisis has some strange possitive effects on this problem. However, you can't rely on this crisis to provide a solution in the long run. The point still stands though that 00 universe's solution for drugs-production hasn't evolved one bit from today. I don't expect the 00 writers to actually think up a good solution, but the problem was portrayed a bit too simple. Burning=good. Which is debatable. I am not to say burning= not good. It just won't solve the problem in the long run.

As for the wedding thing: that nurses wonder what the Havely family had to with war is perfectly logical seeing as they were attacked by CB, the anti-war idealists. It does not however mean the families involved had anything to do with war at all. Even if they did and both families were evil to the max. It was a wedding! Think of the children! Besides; everything points out that this was an impulsive act of evil by Nena. They were having fun, while she was bored, thus they had to die. Evil in my book. Your defense of Nena is too far-fetched imo.

burning the drug field in deed is a good way to deal whit the drugs and the organizations that incite war not only the plants gets burn but the stability of the soil changes some times making it not stable for replanting the same thing there that simple crop cos an incredible amount of money to build and to take care of the ones that got there crops bur lost a lot

[Balder8472]

the Throne Gundam meisters were fanatics,they did truly believe in Aeolia Schenberg's ideals of eliminating war but their interpretation was different from the main team, they executed their missions with ruthless efficiency and with no regard for civilian casualties .

They were created for the sole purpose of being Gundam meisters and taught that their war inciting enemies must be destroyed without mercy.This dehumanizing of their enemies allowed them to be without empathy for other people.

Nena having been brought up in such an environment, thought nothing of killing the happy carefree people at the wedding party.Her actions were completely unilateral and childish but neither of her brothers were that bothered by it either clearly demonstrating their shared lack of empathy.

the regular Gundam meisters normally avoided civilian casualties if at all possible and rarely killed the enemies they fought (such as mech pilots)

[LordStrike]

Originally Posted by Balder8472

the Throne Gundam meisters were fanatics,they did truly believe in Aeolia Schenberg's ideals of eliminating war but their interpretation was different from the main team, they executed their missions with ruthless efficiency and with no regard for civilian casualties .

They were created for the sole purpose of being Gundam meisters and taught that their war inciting enemies must be destroyed without mercy.This dehumanizing of their enemies allowed them to be without empathy for other people.

Nena having been brought up in such an environment, thought nothing of killing the happy carefree people at the wedding party.Her actions were completely unilateral and childish but neither of her brothers were that bothered by it either clearly demonstrating their shared lack of empathy.

the regular Gundam meisters normally avoided civilian casualties if at all possible and rarely killed the enemies they fought (such as mech pilots)

true that true that

[RDF2050]

Originally Posted by Balder8472

the Throne Gundam meisters were fanatics,they did truly believe in Aeolia Schenberg's ideals of eliminating war but their interpretation was different from the main team, they executed their missions with ruthless efficiency and with no regard for civilian casualties .

They were created for the sole purpose of being Gundam meisters and taught that their war inciting enemies must be destroyed without mercy.This dehumanizing of their enemies allowed them to be without empathy for other people.

Nena having been brought up in such an environment, thought nothing of killing the happy carefree people at the wedding party.Her actions were completely unilateral and childish but neither of her brothers were that bothered by it either clearly demonstrating their shared lack of empathy.

the regular Gundam meisters normally avoided civilian casualties if at all possible and rarely killed the enemies they fought (such as mech pilots)

Not better form to explain what Throne Gundam Meisters really are

Excellent explanation.

[dahak]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Frankly, you can't fault CB for burning poppies. There is no law against it, literally.

At a minimum Al could be arraigned for any or all of the following for that incident if the field was in the UK: Vandalism, Criminal Damage, Reckless Endangerment, Import and Export of Military Equipment without a valid end use certificate, Failing to file a flight plan. Plus the Terrorism and Conspiracy charges. It is unlikely the locla he was over is much different.

Later of course he blows up a large number of children.

[kakakka]

the regular Gundam meisters normally avoided civilian casualties if at all possible and rarely killed the enemies they fought (such as mech pilots)

They did though, and tons of them

Later of course he blows up a large number of children.

Which are already soldiers and are already messed up than what they should have been. Used as lab rats, they are already living dead. But then, different people have different views about this topic...

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by dahak

At a minimum Al could be arraigned for any or all of the following for that incident if the field was in the UK: Vandalism, Criminal Damage, Reckless Endangerment, Import and Export of Military Equipment without a valid end use certificate, Failing to file a flight plan. Plus the Terrorism and Conspiracy charges. It is unlikely the locla he was over is much different.

There are laws protecting druglords?

Then every nation have broken laws for confiscating drugs from heroin shipments. They are private-property, after all.

Oh, and every soldier can be tried for attempted murder.

Trying to throw civic laws around like that is meaningless. As I said before, no nation would care about the Poppy-burning because everyone does it. And if the UK had a secret poppy-field, the government would give Al a medal for saving the lives of children who would be spared drug addiction.

That's the thing; burning of Poppies is actually the LEAST controversial thing CB has ever done, so I find it strange there would be people trying to label it as a major crime. No governments in the 00 universe cared about the poppy burning, and the same applies to the real world.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

There are laws protecting druglords?

Sure there are. Murder, kidnapping, you name it. It all depends if the government feels it's in their interest to exercise and extend it: while a petty gang war won't get the attention of, say, a serial killer, laws extend to everyone.

Heck, Pablo Escobar family was put under protective custody by the Columbian police, with the threat of rescinding it being used to keep him in-country even while on the run. Quite likely the only reason any of them are alive today.

Then every nation have broken laws for confiscating drugs from heroin shipments. They are private-property, after all.

No, on two counts. One, the government does have the legal authority to confiscate property. Two, those are illegal items and don't warrant the same protection as private property (a strawman argument I'm sure you were aware of).

But you're actually missing dahak's point: it wasn't the destruction of an illegal drug field that would have been grounds for Allelujah's arrest, it was the numerous accessory crimes that were also involved in the process. Prosecutions tend to favor using all the crimes they can, rather than just the action that stirred the trial, in order to improve chances of conviction.

Look to Al Capone: Al wasn't arrested and convicted for being a gang boss, for smuggling bootleg beer during prohibition, or for being behind the Valentines Day Massacre. It was... income tax evasion.

Oh, and every soldier can be tried for attempted murder.

They can be, if their behavior strays outside of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the Geneva Convention rules in regards to warfare, or if they fall into the hands of a nation/power that doesn't recognize the legal standing/whatever of the country the soldiers belong to. And we have hung a number of soldiers and officers responsible for war crimes (usually enemy, but American soldiers can be held accountable as well, even if the government is openly biased towards them).

Spies and unmarked soldiers (that is, soldiers who don't wear open national/organizational markings while fighting) have no protections under the Geneva Convention in regards to being POWs and there actually is no over-arching law against shooting them upon capture. That lack of legal protection was the foundation of Bush's enemy combatant classification, though whether that was morally right or wrong is not an argument I intend to get into.

Trying to throw civic laws around like that is meaningless. As I said before, no nation would care about the Poppy-burning because everyone does it. And if the UK had a secret poppy-field, the government would give Al a medal for saving the lives of children who would be spared drug addiction.

And then consequently arrest him for blowing up British soldiers and sailors, and whatever else they can throw the book at him for. Including, yes, civic laws.

The government's might not care about the poppy burning itself, but they do have a vested interest in preserving their monopoly on force and enforcing laws within their own borders. And, of course, a heavy interest in having grounds for keeping Allelujah (and, hopefully by extension, Kyrios) within their jurisdiction upon capture. Is poppy burning and its accessory crimes low-grade compared to plenty of other reasons and events? Sure. But if you're going to throw the book at a criminal you want locked up forever, you're going to throw the entire book.

That's the thing; burning of Poppies is actually the LEAST controversial thing CB has ever done, so I find it strange there would be people trying to label it as a major crime. No governments in the 00 universe cared about the poppy burning, and the same applies to the real world.

Least controversial doesn't mean it isn't a crime, though. Vigilantism can be very popular in some cases, but governments still crack down on it fast. Even if Celestial Being weren't doing anything else but bombing drug plantations, governments would react, both to try and enforce exclusive monopoly of armed force within their borders and to capture CB technology.

[LordStrike]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Heck, Pablo Escobar family was put under protective custody by the Columbian police, with the threat of rescinding it being used to keep him in-country even while on the run. Quite likely the only reason any of them are alive today.

are you sure about that? i really really wish to see the source of your info on that statement.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by LordStrike

are you sure about that? i really really wish to see the source of your info on that statement.

The True Story of Killing Pablo, a 2003 documentary and one of the few good productions the History Channel has made in the last six years. It features numerous interviews from Columbian and US politicians, police, agents, soldiers, and relevant peoples, including a Columbian insurgent leader associated with Los Pepes, the anti-Pablo death squads. Mark Bowden, who's done research and investigation into the subject, also is interviewed.

Killing Pablo, by Mark Bowden (the author of Black Hawk Down, which is virtually required reading in my Army ROTC) also covers the story, but I have yet to read it to verify.


What it comes down to is that Pablo tried more than once to have his family flee the country to (relative) safety. The Columbian and American governments worked to prevent that, fearing that if he thought his family was safe that Pablo would wage an even bloodier war against Columbia, rather than hold off for fear of retaliation against his family (Pablo, for all his murders and crimes, was a family man). So the family was openly kept in a hotel under police guard, and the hotel soon became virtually deserted because people feared being caught in a Los Pepes attack; this was the time with Los Pepes was hunting down and killing virtually anyone related to Pablo. Not too long before Pablo's death, the Columbian government made warnings/threats that they were going to withdraw protection from Pablo's family. If they had...

Well, Los Pepes is one of those examples of why vigilantes aren't automatically heroes.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Well, Los Pepes is one of those examples of why vigilantes aren't automatically heroes.

And yet, since burning poppies is so common, you can't call it vigilante behavior. Quite frankly, no one will care.

You can't criminalize an act that has been accepted by the international community as acceptable behavior. You can shout all you want, but that will be the end of it.