China : Current Events

[Brother Coa]

I know about that, but it has been 50 years....

They still hold a grudge?

You would thought that they would get better with Communist China instead Capitalist west...

In any way, China is all alone, it's time they change as well.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

I know about that, but it has been 50 years....

They still hold a grudge?

You would thought that they would get better with Communist China instead Capitalist west...

In any way, China is all alone, it's time they change as well.

Why would Vietnam care what political system China uses? If someone is trying to steal my ocean territory, I wouldn't care if they are communist or not. They are still foreigners.

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

If someone is trying to steal my ocean territory

If only it were your territory. The point with all this islands / maritime territory nonsense is this, nobody has a bullet-proof, objectively correct, claim from the perspective of international law. What you have is a number of intersecting claims, each of which have a bit of legitimacy and a bit of illigitimacy. Key is answering the question of who appears to have the more credible claim. But here's the catch, what is more credible is highly subjective. And it seems no side in this has the will to accept some form of compromise in form of shared ownership.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Kakurin-san

If only it were your territory. The point with all this islands / maritime territory nonsense is this, nobody has a bullet-proof, objectively correct, claim from the perspective of international law. What you have is a number of intersecting claims, each of which have a bit of legitimacy and a bit of illigitimacy. Key is answering the question of who appears to have the more credible claim. But here's the catch, what is more credible is highly subjective. And it seems no side in this has the will to accept some form of compromise in form of shared ownership.

Doesn't matter who you think the territory belongs too; what matter is what Vietnam thinks. If they think the territory is theirs, you are not going to reason your way into making them part with it.

If China want it, Vietnam isn't going to just hand it over. And being Communist will change NOTHING. Because territory dispute is more important than political ideology.

Frankly your reply makes no sense. Of course claims can be changed. Just as I can forcefully take all your belongings if I have a large enough number of armed thugs.

Why should Vietnam share with China what they already own exclusively? If China want to use force, then they can. But until then Vietnam isn't going to surrender. They didn't surrender to America, back then, so why should they surrender to China now?

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Why should Vietnam share with China what they already own exclusively?

Last time I checked the territory is disputed with China having a sizeable presence on many of those islands.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Kakurin-san

Last time I checked the territory is disputed with China having a sizeable presence on many of those islands.

That changes nothing. All it proves is that China is determined to take the territory. That still makes no sense for you to suggest that Vietnam should share. What logic were you working from?

Why don't you organised a form of compromise and share your bank account details with me? It is sharing, surely you would just do that because it is better than me taking your money at gun point?

Seriously... compromise? sharing? You are speaking in code. I know you are smarter than that, so clearly you are implying something else. I find that very, very rude.

[aldw]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That changes nothing. All it proves is that China is determined to take the territory. That still makes no sense for you to suggest that Vietnam should share. What logic were you working from?

Why don't you organised a form of compromise and share your bank account details with me? It is sharing, surely you would just do that because it is better than me taking your money at gun point?

Seriously... compromise? sharing? You are speaking in code. I know you are smarter than that, so clearly you are implying something else. I find that very, very rude.

The bank account example isn't really correct because people can and do share a joint operational account for various activities (especially business partners). The basic idea is that the disputants should share because the overlapping nature of the territorial claims due to the positioning of the islands makes sharing more constructive and productive than simply claiming 'this is mine', regardless of who's claiming and controlling what.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by aldw

The bank account example isn't really correct because people can and do share a joint operational account for various activities (especially business partners). The basic idea is that the disputants should share because the overlapping nature of the territorial claims due to the positioning of the islands makes sharing more constructive and productive than simply claiming 'this is mine', regardless of who's claiming and controlling what.

I give up. At some point I had to realise I am the only person around here willing to speak plainly. I just don't enjoy dancing around topics to avoid annoying other people.

The bank ccount example makes sense because I want his money, and I want to take it from him. He can share his details so I wouldn't hurt him, or I take his money anyway AND hurt him. That's China's position.

But the thing is, Vietnam rightly or wrongly, has pride in defeating the Unite States in battle. And that means they are not going to back down on China either. Any suggestion that Vietnam "share" simply makes no sense, because you know full well that a smaller nation can NEVER share its territory with its stronger neighbour. It is literally suicide. A small nation has to hold on to all its territory, or it would cease to exist. Sharing is automatically the equivalent of being absorbed by the stronger neighbour, much like the satellite states of the USSR. Vietnam CAN'T share with China, because it isn't an equal relationship. They are either separate, or become a vassal state.

[aldw]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I give up. At some point I had to realise I am the only person around here willing to speak plainly. I just don't enjoy dancing around topics to avoid annoying other people.

The bank ccount example makes sense because I want his money, and I want to take it from him. He can share his details so I wouldn't hurt him, or I take his money anyway AND hurt him. That's China's position.

But the thing is, Vietnam rightly or wrongly, has pride in defeating the Unite States in battle. And that means they are not going to back down on China either. Any suggestion that Vietnam "share" simply makes no sense, because you know full well that a smaller nation can NEVER share its territory with its stronger neighbour. It is literally suicide. A small nation has to hold on to all its territory, or it would cease to exist. Sharing is automatically the equivalent of being absorbed by the stronger neighbour, much like the satellite states of the USSR. Vietnam CAN'T share with China, because it isn't an equal relationship. They are either separate, or become a vassal state.

How the hell is pointing out nuances and conditions suddenly become an act of deception or annoyance just because it doesn't automatically conform to someone's predetermined ideological position? That's why it's called politics, NOT PHILOSOPHICAL TRUTH.

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Doesn't matter who you think the territory belongs too; what matter is what Vietnam thinks. If they think the territory is theirs, you are not going to reason your way into making them part with it.

If China want it, Vietnam isn't going to just hand it over. And being Communist will change NOTHING. Because territory dispute is more important than political ideology.

I do agree with you but look at this:



Vietnam wants to take sea territory that is about 3 times bigger than their state which is ridiculous. The way I see it China indeed has the right to the biggest percentage of territory.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Vietnam wants to take sea territory that is about 3 times bigger than their state which is ridiculous. The way I see it China indeed has the right to the biggest percentage of territory.

That's not how it works at all. Landmass has nothing to do with ocean territories. What matters is surface area extending from the landmass. That's why many island nations have more oceans than land. Your entire argument just doesn't make sense.

Why should China suddenly extend its claim down INTO the middle of other lands?

(Well, okay, we know WHY China would do that. But just because we know why doesn't mean they get to make it true.)


Yes, Vietnam is long and thin, it means they have a long beach. That's just geography. Nowhere is there a rule saying your ocean territory has to be a fixed proportion of your landmass. If that is the case then Russia would have a damn HUGE oceanic claim. Be careful of what you are saying.

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That's not how it works at all. Landmass has nothing to do with ocean territories. What matters is surface area extending from the landmass. That's why many island nations have more oceans than land. Your entire argument just doesn't make sense.

Than this entire thing with dispute is nonsensical as countries can claim only 22 or so km of sea before international waters kick in ( waters that belong to noone ). That is why they are using islands.

Why should China suddenly extend its claim down INTO the middle of other lands?

Wrong - those SEA lands belong to noone, so just like Antarctica and surface of the Moon they are ripe for the taking.
And with China building enough islands she is basically cementing that claim. No wonder everyone are agaisnt it.
Why should they claim? Going by territory alone they are the biggest and should take the largest percentage of the sea.

Yes, Vietnam is long and thin, it means they have a long beach. That's just geography. Nowhere is there a rule saying your ocean territory has to be a fixed proportion of your landmass. If that is the case then Russia would have a damn HUGE oceanic claim. Be careful of what you are saying.

In that case I totally support this, entire Arctic and 1/4 of Pacific should belong to Russia anyway.

[yulinard]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Than this entire thing with dispute is nonsensical as countries can claim only 22 or so km of sea before international waters kick in ( waters that belong to noone ). That is why they are using islands.

that map show economic exclusive zone.

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Going by territory alone they are the biggest and should take the largest percentage of the sea.

Who said that?

[Ithekro]

Note that the dispute has everything to do with the Exclusive Economic Zones claims, which extend a maximum of 200 nautical miles (370 km).

Note: France holds the most waters on Earth via massive amounts of EEZ.

[Brother Coa]

Actually the EU has the largest if we are counting it as a single entity rather than a country.

[Ithekro]

If you count the EU as a single entity that includes France anyway.

[AnimeFan188]

China’s scary lesson to the world: Censoring the
Internet works:

"First there was the Berlin Wall. Now there is the Great Firewall of
China, not a physical barrier preventing people from leaving, but a
virtual one, preventing information harmful to the Communist Party
from entering the country.

Just as one fell, so will the other be eventually dismantled, because
information, like people, cannot be held back forever.

Or so the argument goes.

But try telling that to Beijing. Far from knocking down the world’s
largest system of censorship, China in fact is moving ever more
confidently in the opposite direction, strengthening the wall’s legal
foundations, closing breaches and reinforcing its control of the Web
behind the wall."

See:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...mepage%2Fstory

[Brother Coa]

China has begun to send nuclear submarines to patrol China south sea.

It's all fun and games and democracy and supremacy until someone start playing with the big red button.

To me this looks like prequel to "Fallout". xD

[Ithekro]

An Arbitral Tribunal is expected to rule this month on a South China Sea territorial dispute between China and the Philippines.

[Brother Coa]

South China Sea: Hague rules in favor of Philippines over China.

Since this is Hague and therefore UN I am not expecting much from this decision.

It will be interesting to see will USA sanction China like they did Russia and kick them from G7 if Chinese do not step down ( which they won't anyway ).