[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[passer_by]

Hello, experienced ones! I am going through the Umineko manga at the moment and I want to ask a question (and may be more later) without going through 1.6K pages of this thread and learning too much. Please do not blame me for that.

So... I kinda accepted that Shannon and Kanon should be the same person but I do not get the first twilight in the Episod 1 when Shannon is found and proclaimed dead among others by Kanon (no surprise) and Hideyoshi. How was it possible for Hideyoshi to see a corpse that was not there? Unless the island is packed with spare ones.

Thank you

PS Just found that I screwed and posted this question in a dead thread. I hope I will not be banned for a duplicate. Cheers

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by passer_by

Hello, experienced ones! I am going through the Umineko manga at the moment and I want to ask a question (and may be more later) without going through 1.6K pages of this thread and learning too much. Please do not blame me for that.

So... I kinda accepted that Shannon and Kanon should be the same person but I do not get the first twilight in the Episod 1 when Shannon is found and proclaimed dead among others by Kanon (no surprise) and Hideyoshi. How was it possible for Hideyoshi to see a corpse that was not there? Unless the island is packed with spare ones.

Thank you

PS Just found that I screwed and posted this question in a dead thread. I hope I will not be banned for a duplicate. Cheers

My answer from the other thread:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Maybe you should rather ask: "Why did Hideyoshi supposedly see a corpse that possibly doesn't exist?"

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

*Smirks*. I've found an interesting way to create a Rosatrice theory. At the very least, for the 2nd game, any culprit other than a Rosa culprit is impossible.

If we remember, there was the servant murders in the 2nd game. My master, Lady Lambadelta proclaimed a very interesting Red Truth:

After the master keys came into Rosa's control, never did any of them leave her hands! Except for the time when she lent it to Battler to unlock Natsuhi's room.

My deepest apologies to my Master, but there's two things with her red that allows me to attack Rosa.

The first thing that I want to point out is that this Red Statement doesn't specifically rule at which time they came in Rosa's Control, just that they came into control and that secondly, they never left her hands.

Since no Statement's been made about the before or after, we can highly assume that Rosa already has possession of a servant's key at the time of the murder. This is also how the six-closed room ring murder took place.

What about Jessica and Kanon's murder?

The struggle depicted in the metaphysical world occurred in the real world as well(obviously disregarding the metaphysical aspects of it). While Rosa succeeded in murdering Jessica and Kanon, Kanon's Master Key fell out of his pocket. Either Rosa didn't notice this, or that around the time of the murder's discovery, she didn't have enough time to make it look like a closed room and get the key.

With this blue truth, it's still possible to assign Rosa as the culprit, even if she didn't have Kanon's master key at the time.

Natsuhi's murder is also easy to explain along similar lines to my theory about Jessica/Kanon.

The murder was committed long before the group actually made it to Natsuhi's room. Rosa murdered Natsuhi, restructured the closed room and afterwards gave the key to Battler.

The key to the trickery in which the Rosa deception occurs is assuming she doesn't have access to the key when the murder occurs. Even if Rosa doesn't have access to the keys when the murder occurs, it's still possible for her to have access to the keys before or even after the murder occurs.

(This is the exact same argument Battler used to explain how 'he' could have murdered George's group in the 5th game).

[GreyZone]

Depending on how you interpret the red, you must fulfil 1 condition though: The must be in possesion of all 5 master keys, when she gave 1 to Battler to open Natsuhi's room.

So... when did she retrieve Kanon's master key?

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Depending on how you interpret the red, you must fulfil 1 condition though: The must be in possesion of all 5 master keys, when she gave 1 to Battler to open Natsuhi's room.

So... when did she retrieve Kanon's master key?

If you mean during Kanon's murder, I posited a blue theory that Rosa either didn't notice Kanon's key dropping or didn't have the time to collect the key after everyone came to the room.

While Ryukishi may have made a Nanjo Accomplice theory pretty much canon via implication for Yasu, I don't want to do that. It's much more fun(and interesting) to use a theory that's neither been proven nor denied in red.

Dr. Nanjo had been killed by Rosa shortly in between Jessica and Natsuhi's deaths. Because the servant's room was relatively farther away from the others, it's possible to hide Dr. Nanjo's death until later. Rosa took Kanon's key after killing Nanjo who had possession over it at the time.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

Dr. Nanjo had been killed by Rosa shortly in between Jessica and Natsuhi's deaths. Because the servant's room was relatively farther away from the others, it's possible to hide Dr. Nanjo's death until later. Rosa took Kanon's key after killing Nanjo who had possession over it at the time.

Just to clarify, about what game are we talking right now?
Because in the 2nd game Natsuhi's death occurs during the 1st twilight

[Leafsnail]

You know, I think the biggest blank in my understanding of the series is still the bomb. And I don't mean in terms of how it got there or how it works, but why it was used. It's generally accepted that Yasu intended to use it, or at least had a contingency plan that involved using it. Why? Thematically it seems clear that Yasu never intended to actually kill anyone.

I guess Yasu must have been planning to fake a "Rokkenjima incident", at least as a backup plan? The gold and contacts Kinzo had given her would probably let everyone establish new identities. Then the message bottles would confuse the hell out of everybody. I'm not sure if she could win the support of the parents on this though, considering that Natsuhi and Eva in particular value the honour of the Ushiromiya family. Maybe she'd give people the option to "survive" the blast if they so wished? Or maybe the siblings disagreeing with this plan is what caused it not to work? I'm kinda lost on this one too be honest.

e: I'm getting a strong feeling that the whole "love question" thing from episode 4 is relevant, in terms of giving people a choice about who dies.

[passer_by]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

My answer from the other thread:
Maybe you should rather ask: "Why did Hideyoshi supposedly see a corpse that possibly doesn't exist?"

GreyZone, I am totally in the realm of your nickname after your answer.
Do you imply that Hideyoshi did not see a corpse but rather was told by Kanon? As far as it is shown, Kanon points to the corpse and the ring but says nothing at the moment.
A theory of Shannon/Kanon threatening family members into cooperation seems unreasonable at the least.
So, an extra corpse after all or a dummy?

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by passer_by

GreyZone, I am totally in the realm of your nickname after your answer.
Do you imply that Hideyoshi did not see a corpse but rather was told by Kanon? As far as it is shown, Kanon points to the corpse and the ring but says nothing at the moment.
A theory of Shannon/Kanon threatening family members into cooperation seems unreasonable at the least.
So, an extra corpse after all or a dummy?

Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

No dummies. Either there was a corpse or not.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Just to clarify, about what game are we talking right now?
Because in the 2nd game Natsuhi's death occurs during the 1st twilight

I was going off memory, based on the fact that Rosa gave Battler the key to open up Natsuhi's room. I was suggesting that There was a time interval between the deaths of Natsuhi and Nanjo. In that time interval, Rosa obtained the master key from Nanjo.

I'd have to play the game again, but my theory pretty much works with whoever was murdered before we saw Nanjo's body. Rosa created the illusion that she didn't have the opportunity to possess a key before a murder occurred, but that's not true if she does it in a similar fashion to this.

[Leafsnail]

The people found dead in Natsuhi's room were Shannon, George and Gohda. They all appear after Rosa takes the keys so I don't think that theory really works.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by passer_by

GreyZone, I am totally in the realm of your nickname after your answer.
Do you imply that Hideyoshi did not see a corpse but rather was told by Kanon? As far as it is shown, Kanon points to the corpse and the ring but says nothing at the moment.
A theory of Shannon/Kanon threatening family members into cooperation seems unreasonable at the least.
So, an extra corpse after all or a dummy?

Well, I don't know exactly how far you're in your knowledge of Umineko so I wouldn't want to spoil you too much.
Anyway you've already figured out that there's no Shannon's corpse in the shed so either Hideyoshi is lying or he's being tricked into seeing something that's not there.

Now to understand Hideyoshi's mindset and see if it could be he was lying or he was seeing things, it can be of some help to think at Hideyoshi and Eva's behaviour after all this mess, when they decided to leave everyone else (even George) and stay alone in the room and behaved as they just didn't find 5/6 corpses and had a killer on the loose on the island.

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

You know, I think the biggest blank in my understanding of the series is still the bomb. And I don't mean in terms of how it got there or how it works, but why it was used. It's generally accepted that Yasu intended to use it, or at least had a contingency plan that involved using it. Why? Thematically it seems clear that Yasu never intended to actually kill anyone.

I guess Yasu must have been planning to fake a "Rokkenjima incident", at least as a backup plan? The gold and contacts Kinzo had given her would probably let everyone establish new identities. Then the message bottles would confuse the hell out of everybody. I'm not sure if she could win the support of the parents on this though, considering that Natsuhi and Eva in particular value the honour of the Ushiromiya family. Maybe she'd give people the option to "survive" the blast if they so wished? Or maybe the siblings disagreeing with this plan is what caused it not to work? I'm kinda lost on this one too be honest.

e: I'm getting a strong feeling that the whole "love question" thing from episode 4 is relevant, in terms of giving people a choice about who dies.

You can go through it in 2 ways:

- Yasu never intended to kill anyone, the bomb existed but was merely a device she used in her stories to make them more mysterious. In Prime though the bomb ended up on exploding anyway for unrelated reasons.

- Yasu intended to kill everyone and then seal what had happened in those two days in a catbox, thanks to the bomb that would make impossible to make investigation. In this way no one would know if they lived or died or what happened to them and it could be that, as this would generate infinite possibilities, in her mind, this was the same as saying that it was possible they had reached the Golden Land.

Also good hints to why people became Yasu's accomplices can be found in Our Confession.

In truth the love question can also be a subtle way to ask Battler if there's a girl he love and this girl is Shannon or he found someone else. Battler's answer is, once you finish reading Umineko, the most ironic thing ever.

[passer_by]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Now to understand Hideyoshi's mindset and see if it could be he was lying or he was seeing things, it can be of some help to think at Hideyoshi and Eva's behaviour after all this mess, when they decided to leave everyone else (even George) and stay alone in the room and behaved as they just didn't find 5/6 corpses and had a killer on the loose on the island.

jjblue1, I am on the chapter 6 and still the biggest headache is the chapter 1.

It does look like Eva and Hideyoshi became lucky successors of the Ushiromiya family by chance (hahaha!). It does not explain the appearance of Shannon's “corpse”, though. If Hideyoshi lies about the corpse so do Kanon and Nanjo; which makes sense only if Eva and Hideyoshi teamed up with ALL FOUR remaining servants. I do not see a motive for servants to do it. Well… Honestly, I do not get motives of Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa in general except for the money (booooring) but Eva does not have any.

[Leafsnail]

Chapter 6 may give you some ideas as to why they would team up. Chapter 5 already hinted at the possibility a bit.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

You know, I think the biggest blank in my understanding of the series is still the bomb. And I don't mean in terms of how it got there or how it works, but why it was used. It's generally accepted that Yasu intended to use it, or at least had a contingency plan that involved using it. Why? Thematically it seems clear that Yasu never intended to actually kill anyone.

In my opinion, she really did never fully intend to use the bomb to kill anybody. She might have considered it in her fantasies but never would have had the power to pull it through. But she might have considered using it after everybody got off the island, as a way to escape not only from her life, but cut the ties of the Ushiromiya family altogether.

The general theory though is that it was used to cover up something horrible that actually happened on the island, as an agreement between Eva, Battler and Yasu (largely hinted at in EP8).

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

I was going off memory, based on the fact that Rosa gave Battler the key to open up Natsuhi's room. I was suggesting that There was a time interval between the deaths of Natsuhi and Nanjo. In that time interval, Rosa obtained the master key from Nanjo.

Between Nanjo and Kumasawa disappearing from the servants room and him being found in the backyard, Rosa, Maria and Battler were barricaded up in the parlor. From the discovery of Nanjo's body they immediately went up to Natsuhi's room, where they found Gohda, George, and Shannon dead.

I would really advise you to at least watch the anime or read the manga, to get an idea of the chain of events.

Originally Posted by passer_by

jjblue1, I am on the chapter 6 and still the biggest headache is the chapter 1.

Do you mean CHAPTER or Episode? Because chapter 6 of Episode 1 would imply that you spoiled yourself for some elements.

I do not see a motive for servants to do it. Well… Honestly, I do not get motives of Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa in general except for the money (booooring) but Eva does not have any.

Then, could you possibly construct motives for them helping a culprit who has some kind of connection to Beatrice? Think about everything that we learned, not only about the culprit now, but also about Beatrice, the island and the servants connection to its history.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by haguruma

In my opinion, she really did never fully intend to use the bomb to kill anybody. She might have considered it in her fantasies but never would have had the power to pull it through. But she might have considered using it after everybody got off the island, as a way to escape not only from her life, but cut the ties of the Ushiromiya family altogether.

The general theory though is that it was used to cover up something horrible that actually happened on the island, as an agreement between Eva, Battler and Yasu (largely hinted at in EP8).


Between Nanjo and Kumasawa disappearing from the servants room and him being found in the backyard, Rosa, Maria and Battler were barricaded up in the parlor. From the discovery of Nanjo's body they immediately went up to Natsuhi's room, where they found Gohda, George, and Shannon dead.

I would really advise you to at least watch the anime or read the manga, to get an idea of the chain of events.


Do you mean CHAPTER or Episode? Because chapter 6 of Episode 1 would imply that you spoiled yourself for some elements.


Then, could you possibly construct motives for them helping a culprit who has some kind of connection to Beatrice? Think about everything that we learned, not only about the culprit now, but also about Beatrice, the island and the servants connection to its history.

I watched both the anime and played the games 1-4. The actual scene itself wasn't buried in my mind. I've just been sifting through reds and blues to see if there's a loop hole.

Yasu couldn't have been the culprit of the 2nd game, since Shannon is dead(and that game in particular, really put emphasis on Kanon's existence or lack thereof. We wouldn't know until later(5th game), but clearly Kanon's never real.

I'll elaborate on Lambda's red. Shannon is Kanon. This is true of all games.. Kanon is like the fantasy creatures: An illusion.

As for why the family would play along(aside from the money). It could be they felt sympathy for Shannon who was adopted from a homeless shelter and basically knew no one.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

I watched both the anime and played the games 1-4. The actual scene itself wasn't buried in my mind. I've just been sifting through reds and blues to see if there's a loop hole.

Yasu couldn't have been the culprit of the 2nd game, since Shannon is dead(and that game in particular, really put emphasis on Kanon's existence or lack thereof. We wouldn't know until later(5th game), but clearly Kanon's never real.

I'll elaborate on Lambda's red. Shannon is Kanon. This is true of all games.. Kanon is like the fantasy creatures: An illusion.

As for why the family would play along(aside from the money). It could be they felt sympathy for Shannon who was adopted from a homeless shelter and basically knew no one.

When Shannon died, no more murders occured until 24:00.

[passer_by]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Do you mean CHAPTER or Episode? Because chapter 6 of Episode 1 would imply that you spoiled yourself for some elements.

Oops... I screwed.
Episodes. Not Chapters.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!

Haguruma, is there any indication that the red truth applies across all Episodes?

[passer_by]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Then, could you possibly construct motives for them helping a culprit who has some kind of connection to Beatrice? Think about everything that we learned, not only about the culprit now, but also about Beatrice, the island and the servants connection to its history.

I do have ideas, but all of them are sunk after I try to think as a servant: "Beatrice" is a nice kid except for being crazy. Lets help "her" to kill everyone.
Japanese are different people but not SO different I hope.

And after all, servants' families got money after their death. So...

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by passer_by

I do have ideas, but all of them are sunk after I try to think as a servant: "Beatrice" is a nice kid except for being crazy. Lets help "her" to kill everyone.
Japanese are different people but not SO different I hope.

And after all, servants' families got money after their death. So...

No, no, I wouldn't say that it necessarily has to connect to them simply pitying "Beatrice".
But think about it, what Beatrice's have there actually been? Not Meta-Beatrice but actual people with that name. We know that Kinzo is said to have met Beatrice during the 1940s, then there was the young Beatrice Rosa met in 1967 and died subsequently, and then there is the Beatrice that seems to kill everybody who Battler at least met during EP4 in 1986.
We also know that at least Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo have been at Kinzo's side for a long, long time, so their connection to Beatrice comes into question as well, doesn't it?

We also know that the core of all the games, the person around whom everything revolves is 19 years old, as confirmed by Zepar and Furfur in EP6. Ring a bell?