(L+CR) Gatchaman Crowds

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Maybe it's doing it a little too well.

The social commentary is nice and all, but the show isn't doing anything to make our 'heroic team' not seem useless.

Within the first two episodes their purpose of fighting was made obsolete, I have no problem with that but they sure don't seem to be doing a whole lot of protecting the weak after that.

I agree. The "villain" is well designed and all, but it's a little strange how a high school girl who is supposed to be a greenhorn in the business is currently wiser than all the current members and veterans combined.

I won't say Hajime is a Mary Sue since it's clear there are things she doesn't know herself, but she is coming quite close.

[Warm Mist]

I don't see what's really wrong with having a perfect character if the concept of having a perfect character is part of the show's objective. There is clearly a plan with Hajime, and her interactions with the rest of the cast are not really "mary sue"-ish.
Not that I think she's perfect either, she has severe communication issues for one.

I liked the line about the makeup. Rui wants to change the world, and what's more, he wants it to change from within every human instead of forcing a change from above. But he doesn't even have the guts to show himself as he really is, unlike Hajime. He would be certainly prettier spouting his ideology if he didn't use makeup.

As for the show itself, it's actually pretty bad. I keep watching because it's Nakamura and I'm hoping for something, but all I find is a good script being turned into a production mess. Supposedly next episode is going to be better, but I can't be sure anymore.

[Tyabann]

When a show is this entertaining and cleverly-written, I honestly don't care that it's a "production mess". Sure, I'd rather it actually look good, but a show like this would never get a decent budget to begin with.
And, hell, at least it's far better than [C].

[Hamster]

I'm calling it. Hajime's secretly the psychopathic main villain plotting the Gatchaman's demise from within.

[Warm Mist]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

When a show is this entertaining

See, that's where it fails for me. I can see the writing and the ideas, they are plain as day, but it doesn't engage me in any meaningful way. I don't feel compelled to think about any of what the show is saying, and I don't care for any of the characters (not even Hajime, who on paper is lovely), because my eyes are constantly being bombarded with offensive stuff.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

...a show like this would never get a decent budget to begin with.

Why not? Nakamura's Mononoke and Trapeze aren't really commercial high-profile shows, but they are amazing. His A-1 show was much better in the end, even if it had a ton of production difficulties.
I think this is a problem with Tatsunoko, they either don't care about Nakamura or don't have the means to produce a full show like this. Muromi-san was half-length, had tons of interesting animators coming in to do little things due to the director, and even that ended up running into some schedule issues.

I won't continue bashing the show because it seems like people are enjoying it and it's not my objective to ruin their Friday evenings, but it bothers me seeing such a talented director in positions like these. Although, perhaps in part it's his fault too; he could manage his schedule and resources better.

[Dop]

So nobody spotted the Hendrix reference...
"Hey Jou, where you goin' with that gun in your hand?"
...or was that just me?

Chalk me up as part of the group who thinks Hajime is deeper than she looks. A few episodes ago Utsutsu called her a liar, which made me suspect that the uber-genki appearance might possibly be a front.

The way she played Rui by talking about the 'sparkly things' and taking out her notebook was well done.

I'm really enjoying the way this show is ripping open the hero cliches and questioning the things which are normally a given.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Warm Mist

I don't see what's really wrong with having a perfect character if the concept of having a perfect character is part of the show's objective.

This is supposed to be a Tatsunoko sentai show. So far, the only heroes I'm seeing are Hajime and Rui.

Hajime is an exceptional person who fits her position as the main heroine of the show, but the problem is that none of the other Gatchaman match up. Therefore the problem with the narrative is either A)Hajime is too perfect and needs to have more flaws or B)the other Gatchaman are too flawed and need to pick up the slack.

Originally Posted by Warm Mist

There is clearly a plan with Hajime, and her interactions with the rest of the cast are not really "mary sue"-ish.
Not that I think she's perfect either, she has severe communication issues for one.

"Communication issues"? She negotiated with the MESS and successfully rescued all the kidnapped victims with no casualties within two episodes. She made it clear to Rui what she wants and how much she knows.

Additionally, she pulled Utsutsu out of her shell and inspired her to rescue those people in the collapsed tunnel.

On paper her form of speech sound very eccentric and characteristic of an ADHD patient, but Hajime has made it clear multiple times in the show that she can see what she wants, knows what she wants, and can get what she needs when it counts. In fact, she can almost do it too well.

Originally Posted by Warm Mist

There is clearly a plan with Hajime

It's fine if she is a plot device to trigger growth in Sugane and the rest of the Gatchaman along with Rui (e.g. a Christ-like martyr) where the real protagonists are Sugane and Rui, but as a character in a narrative she is quite static. Even Superman has more flaws and insecurities than her.

[Tyabann]

Characters don't -need- to have flaws and insecurities to be compelling, entertaining characters. There's no formula that must be followed to produce "good writing"; you can't make a character "better" by "adding more flaws".
Hell, even applying the term "Mary Sue" to a character in an official work is a ridiculous idea.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

This is supposed to be a Tatsunoko sentai show.

Are, uh, are you totally missing what the show is trying to do with its genre?

Originally Posted by Warm Mist

Why not? Nakamura's Mononoke and Trapeze aren't really commercial high-profile shows, but they are amazing. His A-1 show was much better in the end, even if it had a ton of production difficulties.

Well, I am ashamed to admit that I haven't seen Mononoke or Trapeze, but Tsuritama was a far "safer" show than either [C] or Crowds... I'm just trying to say that I expect anime like this, that go out of their way to do something different, to have a far more issues with production than things that don't. I should probably watch Nakamura's earlier stuff though.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

It's fine if she is a plot device to trigger growth in Sugane and the rest of the Gatchaman along with Rui (e.g. a Christ-like martyr) where the real protagonists are Sugane and Rui, but as a character in a narrative she is quite static. Even Superman has more flaws and insecurities than her.

There's nothing wrong with statics characters, and I don't think her main purpose in the story is to help develop Sugane, Rui, and the others. I think she's exactly what she appears to be: the main protagonist and true hero of the story. Of course she does help Utsutsu and Sugane to grow, but that's just a side effect of her characterization. In fact, I argue that watching her help the others says more about herself than about them.

More than anything, she's an element of genre subversion. This is supposed to be a super-sentai show, but instead of being focused on the team, the focus is mostly on the main character. Furthermore, said character is apparently so crazy no one would think of her as a hero, yet deep down she does have the qualities that make a true hero. Additionally, instead of battles, the focus is on dialog, which fits a series dealing mainly with the theme of communication but totally contradicts the supposed premise of the genre. And Hajime herself is the poster-child for this theme.

It's worth noting the main protagonist in the original series, Ken the eagle, didn't have any important flaw either.....

[FlareKnight]

I just think it's too bad that a series so focused on subverting a genre has music that would be awesome in a more standard representation . While I'll probably forget the series when it's over I'll probably track down the soundtrack.

The trend of subversion continues. Which is too bad since genres got their level of popularity for being what they were. In the end all one can do is adapt to what the show is trying to be and see how it turns out.

Hajime and the plot certainly work for what they are trying to do. But who knows, maybe Joe's death flags will follow through and his death will shake things up a bit. Even Hajime might have a tough time staying relaxed if something like that goes down.

[RollingPenguin]

I remember when people were calling first Iron Man film subversive,because at the of the movie Tony Stark admits that he is superhero.If we call Iron Man subversive than we can certainly say same thing for Gatchaman Crowds,as we now have main character that admits being a superhero.This show is subversive on multiple aspects: first the aliens that are established as enemies aren't really enemies,secondly Sugane posses traits that usually main characters of super hero shows have,but here he is as seen as distraction.I dont like how the creators of the show are pointing out the subversiveness of the show,by having characters say "you are breaking the rules of Gatchaman" many times.Thank you,but I would have gotten the picture without that.
I feel like the whole "hey everyone lets unite and help Hajime" was unnecessary in this episode.I get that unity + social media can be of great help to people,but that was already established in episode with milk crisis.Repeating that same idea from that episode,felt unnecessary and tedious.Hajime could have easily gotten to Ruis home and from then on could have had the same conversation they had.
I also dont like how Rui melodramatically explains his ideas,with his shouting and hand waving.It seems inconsistent with his character who wants to stay in shadows and it is annoying.
I do like the show though,and I find to be quite entertaining.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Characters don't -need- to have flaws and insecurities to be compelling, entertaining characters. There's no formula that must be followed to produce "good writing"; you can't make a character "better" by "adding more flaws".
Hell, even applying the term "Mary Sue" to a character in an official work is a ridiculous idea.

A character does not need to have their flaws and insecurities emphasized to be compelling, but they do need to have limits to what they can do in order to be natural. People have limits to how much they can suspend their disbelief.

I can believe that Hajime is benevolent enough to negotiate with the enemy, understand there is an explanation behind everything, and is perceptive enough see through Rui's facade, but I find it a little strange that she happens to be friends with the mayor, someone from the fire department, the police department, and the SDF.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Are, uh, are you totally missing what the show is trying to do with its genre?

Yes yes, the show is a masterpiece for subverting typical superhero clichés and all the social commentary, etc etc.

So what does this have to do with the other Gatchaman being more or less insignificant in the story? Sure, you could argue that Sugane serves as the "neutral" typical protagonist's perspective and Paipan acts has the upholder of tradition, but then what is Jou's role in the story? O.D.'s role? And how did they even get by before Hajime joined the team?


Surely you're not going to tell me what Hajime being compelling to you is enough to justify the other Gatchaman not being compelling, are you? Because that is the problem I'm seeing.

[Kazu-kun]

I personally think this show is pretty much all about Hajime, so to begin with I never expected the other characters to have much relevance in the story. Their characterization is relative to Hajime's. They serve to emphasize certain aspects of her character, and that's pretty much all they do.

And that's one of the reasons I like it so much. I started watching the show just for Hajime and it hasn't disappointed.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

This is supposed to be a Tatsunoko sentai show. So far, the only heroes I'm seeing are Hajime and Rui.

Hajime is an exceptional person who fits her position as the main heroine of the show, but the problem is that none of the other Gatchaman match up. Therefore the problem with the narrative is either A)Hajime is too perfect and needs to have more flaws or B)the other Gatchaman are too flawed and need to pick up the slack.

It's pretty heavily hinted that the current team of Gatchaman is made of the left-over from an old team that was destroyed for the most part. If that's true, then the panda is probably the old team's mascot, with bluetsutsu the old team's "alien they adopted", and the gay guy being the only guy from the old team that was actually important and powerful, but he apparently got 'tainted' or some such and doesn't trust himself anymore.

In that case, it's more that Hajime is what a Gatchaman should be, while the rest are bargain-bin ones.

[iceaco]

Originally Posted by Arkeus

It's pretty heavily hinted that the current team of Gatchaman is made of the left-over from an old team that was destroyed for the most part. If that's true, then the panda is probably the old team's mascot, with bluetsutsu the old team's "alien they adopted", and the gay guy being the only guy from the old team that was actually important and powerful, but he apparently got 'tainted' or some such and doesn't trust himself anymore.

In that case, it's more that Hajime is what a Gatchaman should be, while the rest are bargain-bin ones.

Interesting take.. I really love the main character. It's like you can see through her yet at the same time she's mysterious, but you don't even suspect that mystery, but you know it's there.

[Warm Mist]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Well, I am ashamed to admit that I haven't seen Mononoke or Trapeze, but Tsuritama was a far "safer" show than either [C] or Crowds... I'm just trying to say that I expect anime like this, that go out of their way to do something different, to have a far more issues with production than things that don't. I should probably watch Nakamura's earlier stuff though.

On theory, yes, but a lot of the "riskier" shows are done by notable figures on the anime industry with lots and lots of contacts, and it generally results in visually striking shows because of the sheer talent involved. A big budget is not really that important in those cases.

Nakamura's Mononoke (or the even better Bakeneko arc from Ayakashi) is an example of this, where talented people came to the aid of a talented guy, and even with a probably less than stellar Toei budget they managed to create something special.

Perhaps my insistence on the issue seems weird if you haven't watched his earlier stuff. The guy can really go beyond, he is probably the most interesting and talented director to appear in the industry in the last ~10 years (not counting Hosoda here because he's a bit older).

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by Solace

What a terrifying character.

Best description of Hajime. We are lucky that she's the protagonist. Otherwise she has the making of a truly scary villain.

[MeoTwister5]

The way she just rocks the establishment is both hilarious and awesome, especially when the rest of the team lose their shit every time she does something.

[orpheus2]

Originally Posted by jeroz

Best description of Hajime. We are lucky that she's the protagonist. Otherwise she has the making of a truly scary villain.

It will be a nice twist that Hajime will be the final villain in the end.

Rui seems to be blind to the flaws of GALAX. This will not end well.

[Key Board]

Hajime feels alien to me.. pun intended?
I understand why she does things, the reasons behind it and why they work

but do not understand her core. I do not sense the humanity in her
she feels like.. something that is not human
it's the same feeling I get from Berg Katze