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Originally Posted by LazyHunter
@dniv
People can dislike Kamisato's character because they don't like his type of character or for whatever other reason they may have. That's just subjective opinions and tastes, nor objective facts like you appear to believe. There's types of characters that I don't like, and no character development less than a total shift will change my mind on them. Same with some series. Honestly, you need to stop reacting like this every time someone complains about anything in the series. Claiming you don't care doesn't really work when you continue your post like that.
You're free to disagree with people's opinions, I don't agree with some people's opinions about several things in the series, including Kamisato. But just because you don't share their opinion, it doesn't mean that their opinions are wrong.
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All of you seriously need to take a chill pill. I was literally just sharing my opinion both on the writing and my opinion on all of your opinions since you were saying it was destroying the writing for you. Maybe that's how you feel. But I'm entitled to thinking that feeling that way is biased, even if I'm wrong, amn't I? Sheesh.
And I agree that people hate different types of characters and also like different types of characters. But that doesn't mean that I have to agree with you hating a particular type of person regardless of whether or not it is actually the case. A lot of us did think we'd never like whatever character and then we did... many of us felt that way even about Accelerator so I think it's all hard to tell ahead of time. To be honest, a lot of my point is that I have faith in Kamachi. He is no God, but that doesn't mean he sucks. I'm allowed to praise him as much as I want here, because I was giving an analysis. I think all of you read my tone wrong. I wasn't trying to make fun of your choices. I was just saying I think all of you should be giving him more of a chance. You all being biased doesn't mean that you're wrong. It means that you're weighing his appearances in the other books and looking at what he is like at the end of chapter 3 when we still have two whole chapters left that'll clearly develop him more and hopefully give him some closure. I don't see how that's unreasonable (of me to point out).
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Originally Posted by Loremaster
Please @Dniv explain to me how my opinion is biased? When not only did I give an honest thought, but I also hoped that Kamachi make me like later on. Do you realise it took me until halfway through OT series to like Misaka Mikoto and even then it was only a minor liking. I'm a hard man to please and any opinion shared on this forum is one based on reading the entire OT and NT just like everyone else up to this point.
Please refrain from sounding like what you've got from reading the novels is correct and everyone else's is biased opinions. You done this many times and it's disrespectful for all of us who are only expressing our first honest thoughts.
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I think all of you misunderstand my tone. Perhaps it's my communication style. But I have my own way of enjoying what I read. You don't need to like the same characters as me, but I still have my own opinions that I'm free to express. I think that based on what I can read from Kamachi's intentions based on the organization of the writing and based on the symbolism in the text, that Kamisato is meant to represent something specific. This was obvious ever since his first appearance, and it was highlighted again after his thoughts were included in the between the lines section for the chapter. I am not mandating any of you to agree with me, but I am still taking the time to explain how I feel about him, how Kamachi has probably tried to portray him based off of what I've gathered from the text, and blah. And I want to assert, I always talk like this. I say X is true or Y is true because I'm a math person. However, I'm the sort of person who after I am corrected will instantly change what I say to Z is true and I was wrong. I just talk in absolutes, but what I say is true is much less stable or unlikely to change or mandatory on what I think you should think or feel when reading the story than you probably imagine. It has and probably always will be my communication style. This is very different from me going out there and saying stop hating on an aspect of the work. There's a huge difference between me saying you are wrong, you are biased, and you are a hater. These are very different levels of criticism. Saying you are biased is a genuine concern I have to offer because I think you are not reading between the lines. Everyone has their own way of reading, but until we discuss things thoroughly here I don't see why I have to think your way of reading things is right until you have proven your point. I mean, it partially has to do with your opinion and what you are subjectively looking for and I understand that and everyone has their own subjective pleasures and I'm a subjectivist (well more of a relativist) so I REALLY understand that (in no way am I an objectivist in the least), but my "scolding" isn't scolding. I'm just frustrated when I liked something so much and saw something good and then see Chosen just whale on Kamisato which from my perspective seems utterly random based on the fact that y'all don't like that type of character.
It especially bothers me though because the whole literal point of this series is to respect different ways of thinking and being and that is as clear as day. So when you all just can't accept a particular character even when he continues to get character development that just obviously bothers me. This is especially true when his ideological viewpoint is important enough to make him a literal foil to Touma in probably some of the most ways we have seen another antagonist/protagonist do yet.
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Originally Posted by Natsurin
I agree with LazyHunter and Loremaster here, you have done this way too much in the past few days and it just makes any sort of NT16 discussion absolutely worthless. If you're going to say you're going to do effort on that aspect then please provide that effort and stop judging and implying other peoples' opinions are worthless via your "I don't care" as you provide an analysis of why people are reading this series wrong unlike you. You're on a discussion forum, so if you're unwilling to accept anything but opinions akin to your own then you're going to have one hell of a hard time.
Not to mention this is both rude and unacceptable. Please stop blindly white-knighting the series at the cost of the people trying to have a mature discussion, you said it yourself you enjoyed a fair share of criticism towards the series, so why are you utterly incapable of accepting any amount of it (which really goes against your notion of an equal balance of criticism and praise) and feel the need to defend everything as if you were the only one truly understanding Kamachi's will which exempts the series from anyone's criticism unless you agree with it? Just because you don't agree with the criticism doesn't mean it's not valid and no one ever said that for the series to have a flaw, all 100% of the readers had to agree and the fact that you don't accept any criticism you feel is "biased" only proves the point of people who dislike this fandom without giving us a chance.
And that's speaking as someone who has no bloody clue of what's even going on in Chapter 3 so I can't possibly have a biased opinion on the matter. I'm just seriously not looking forward to what kind of battlefield awaits me when I'm actually going to read NT16 if this kind of shit happens on a daily basis already.
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I'm getting really annoyed here. You first all misinterpret my post. I didn't criticize your opinions. This is just getting inappropriate here. I just want some freaking analysis for god sake. Kamisato is unlikable. Kamisato is not an old character. This series went down since Kamisato has been here. Fine, those are your opinions. Fine you can express them. But give substance to what you are all saying. I did that. That's what I expect from myself, so what's wrong with me expecting that from all of you? I mean, I'm not going to force you to do it, but I'll still spend the time arguing for my own points.
And as far as me saying I don't care if you agree or not. That doesn't mean I don't value your opinion. It means I won't force my opinion onto you. So you all read that completely backwards. That was me trying to be polite. I don't care means that everyone is entitled to feel the way they want. I could have said something like you are all wrong. From my perspective you are all biased because you disagree with me. It doesn't mean you are actually objectively biased. It doesn't mean you are wrong, but since none of you were providing what to me seemed like clear or effective explanations I said you were biased from my perspective based on the information that I currently have access to.
I don't want to make anything posts in this forum. I gave good reasons. I'm starting to personally lose my patience with all of you. I didn't make any fighting words. In fact, I gave a long, thoughtful post, that I thought all of you would enjoy. Then I come back in a few hours and see people insulting my post style and making fun of my post. If anything is inappropriate it is that. I have been working on my style. And I did. I understand that I did it before, and so you all chose to interpret my post that way because it conformed with your original mental image of what my style is like. But that isn't what I intended with my post, it isn't what I was saying, and I'd like an apology from all of you for reading it wrong and trying to call me out on something that I never did. I stick by my promises and I worked on what I said I was working on. Sheesh.
Anyway, I can promise to work on not only being more positive here, but also on improving my communication style so it's hard to read into it things like that. But that is much harder for me to do because I have little control over my communication style because of my ADHD. But I can guarantee that you read into my entire post wrong. It was supposed to be a positive light hearted jab at you all. It wasn't supposed to be me brutally making fun of you all and then getting insulted by three people all at once who are trying to defend themselves because they feel hurt. That wasn't my intention at all. And I'm sorry if I did cause that by accident. :|
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiliamZ0
Whoa! Calm down guys!! It's just opinion. I can't say everyone wrong and right here. I understood why such differences of opinion appeared. I get and read every opinion here to the point I get each of them.
Each people have different way to interpret this volume. I can say that This is one of most complex volume Kamachi made.
And let's not forget, the author of this LN is none other than Kamachi. If he didn't like it, he won't put his idea in the LN, no matter how we argued
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That's true enough. And you are right. This is just my opinion. Nothing more nothing less. And I agree, Kamachi put it there because he has intentions. And I agree with them. I can see what he is going for. Regardless of his execution, I like what he was going for. Of course, nothing is ever perfect.
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Originally Posted by Loremaster
Kamachi is no God sent writer, he has made many mistakes that I don't like but stayed on for the characters I love in this series.
Princess Carissa is number one in my book, honestly though this entire series felt dragged on with many unanswered questions from OT still not answered yet in NT. Kamachi is far from a God sent writer and as someone who is trying to be a professional writer I have to give my honest opinion.
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I think he is a god sent writer lol. I just think he is always very flawed.
But I still think he is a god sent writer. He does things no other writer does. And that makes me think he is a god sent writer. For me he's a God because he is so ambitious, he puts so much together, and because he describes things so damn well. Not to mention his plots are super interesting, his characters are wonderful, and he's super original. And his stories are excellent and emotional with the best twists and foreshadowing. If that doesn't make him God, then I don't know what does. Sure he has hits and misses, but I don't really care. For me, he does something other writers are way too afraid to try and that's why he'll always be my god in a sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natsurin
To be fair, his ability to keep people invested in the story regardless of how many flaws they find as long as they enjoy one character or aspect of the story is a notable skill in and of itself that not many LN authors are granted with. It takes a certain amount of talent to keep people this passionate about a series they keep finding flaws with since NT began and I'm unfortunately guilty of that.
@WiliamZ0 I think you're a bit mistaken on the source of this... argument, I guess. It's less about whether we enjoy what Kamachi wrote or not and more that speaking opinions has been making everyone step on one landmine or another for a few days now (even outside of this thread) and that's got nothing to do with Kamachi, or even Index. |
Uh, it was just an opinion as I described earlier. He read my post right. Please don't put words in my mouth for me, and once again I apologize if my intent was hard to construe. But yes, you read it wrong. Please read it again with anger goggles off.
And I really am sorry, even if I look like I'm being casual about this. I just don't want to cause more anger here. I don't know what to do about my communication style, but yes, you definitely read it wrong...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loremaster
yep no one is perfect and I accepted that, this is why I don't go around shouting out loud how bad Kamachi is and why he should improve. I only share what I as a hopeful professional writer think about his writing decisions. But Kamachi isn't bad, I think he's pretty skilful and good but he's no where near the best and that was an opinion I had to make clear.
Exactly he has good skill I never intend to deny it. He's kept me invested but that has been seriously tested in NT, much as the characters are great, the overall story is a completely another thing and the characters can't save it forever.
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Mhm. Lol. That makes sense. For me, he is near the best. But only in a few senses. I think he has lots of weaknesses. But he does some things no other writers do and those are the things I care far more about than with other aspects of writing and storytelling and this is also why I often act as I do. And once again, I don't care means I will tune out what others think. I won't pursue it vindictively, and I won't be swayed by it, but I will consider it. It's not supposed to be demeaning... sorry if I came across like that...
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Originally Posted by WiliamZ0
Probably, Most likely...
Sorry LoreMaster m(_ _)m
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Lol.
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Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero
What I meant was that Touma is someone that tries and works hard for what he wants to achieve, we see him stuggle just to even grasp a tiny bit of hope. Then we have Kamisato who doesn't need to put too much work for everything to just go his way (mostly because his harem does the work him), and then we have Kanou Shinka who never tried to do anything and was lead around by St Germain only to end up getting all of the credit for the defeat of St Germain and being classified as a true hero and a man just for throwing the last inconsequential punch (the only thing he did all volume long apart from cowering, crying, and getting controlled). I wasn't saying he was an exact copy but that if you compare the things that they've done they contrast against Touma and in my opinion that is a weakness of NT.
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That's a pretty good analysis. And I already knew about you disliking those two lol. It annoys me, but of course I accept it. It still annoys me though.
I feel bad for Kanou Shinka.
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Originally Posted by entei08
That's fair enough. I guess Touma meant the hero thing as Kanou getting past going on a revenge on Frenda's death. I don't think the last blow meant much, tbh I also felt that it was lacking, even with the illustration backing it. After all Kanou was not someone that memorable other than being a token Shota. Still, he didn't choose the easy way out, realized his faults and would rather St Germain kill him right there instead of tarnishing a friend's memory, that's a brave thing that should be celebrated. In that instance Touma feels he's just an outsider, which is why I think Hamazura was the star there.
Honestly at this point it's hard to compare Touma's feats to people he comes across. It puts Touma on a pedestal and I think that's a bad thing. Which is why I think it would be better to see what Touma can reflect off of others. Just like he did with Hamazura in NT 12, reflecting that he was "weak" but was OK with it after prodding from Othinus. In this case Kamisato raised an interesting point about the responsibility that comes with their powers. It would be interesting to see Touma's take on the subject. Ultimately, these other characters have influence on our main character, giving him a chance to shine in a speech or action, and that intrigues me.
So Kamisato is going to be this convenient guy who doesn't struggle when Touma would and people don't like him because of it? This is great. Of course we want to see characters make an effort, it's only logical, just like how I enjoy seeing Touma's wits and endeavors every time. It only means I need to look elsewhere for enjoying Kamisato's character. Such as what other characters would do to counter him, what's really going on behind the smug confidence (though we know more than half of it by now), what does Laura expect him to do to Aleister etc. He's part of the battle between Laura and Aleister after all.
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I think we'll see more of Kamisato to come in a light that will make at least some of us feel differently about him.
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Either way, I do treat Kamachi like god at times because he is god in certain respects. I read a lot, but I can say that some of the things Kamachi does are never replicated anywhere in other writing. No other styles seem to be both so casual but also so philosophical and meta and fantastical and blah at the same time for me. I don't like it too dry, I love it chunny. But I also like the philosophy and Index goes crazy with it so I love it.
Lastly, I hate the effect of certain first impressions. I'm annoyed this happened. I won't apologize for what I said because I said nothing hurtful. I will apologize for my communication style, but I caution that I don't have much control over that. And I hope people apologize back because frankly the way you all misread my writing was pretty inappropriate all considering it was just an opinion. I've been here for a long time and I'm a lot more mature than you all probably think...
Edit: I recommend you all read through all sections of this post for my full answer. Each person I replied to shouldn't just look at their own section because those are individually incomplete. *derp*
Edit: Once again. I don't want to make enemies here. I just want friends. Regardless of how I may seem. I talk like this because I trust all of you. We're all fans of this series. We all want to discuss what is good and what is bad about it. And I trust that you can all see my intent and not get too hurt by it after I take the time to explain myself. We can all relatively understand each other here. That's why we all like reading a series like this in the first place anyway... probably.
"I believe in the you that believes in me."
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