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Old 2012-02-17, 19:40   Link #2401
Joachim1167
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@Leokiko

Gotcha. *thumbs up*

@everyone

On a side note. Ya know, if you put Lavie in the pilot's seat and made Claus the navigator, you'd kinda end up with the Fam/Gisey dynamic. Just a thought that's been running through my head since Second Adjournment...
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Old 2012-02-17, 19:47   Link #2402
Myssa Rei
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This week, on Last Exile!

Spoiler for Episode 16:


Take note that previews from this series have been misleading before, so it might just be nothing. I hope.
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Old 2012-02-17, 20:10   Link #2403
leokiko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
This week, on Last Exile!

Spoiler for Episode 16:


Take note that previews from this series have been misleading before, so it might just be nothing. I hope.
Spoiler:
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Old 2012-02-17, 20:16   Link #2404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leokiko View Post
Spoiler:
Spoiler for ~:
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Old 2012-02-17, 20:32   Link #2405
leokiko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myssa Rei View Post
Spoiler for ~:
Well, that's true.
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Old 2012-02-17, 20:48   Link #2406
Mgz
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Fam is being typical Fam again... sigh...
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Old 2012-02-17, 21:16   Link #2407
nick2951
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Is it too much to ask that Luscinia at least get angry when he gets defeated?

As for Fam......could there be a possibility that she is important in some way? Her background (parents) are still not known so maybe there some hidden aspect to her?

Or we just have another Van from FF12 in fact that he minor to the story even though he was the main character.
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Old 2012-02-17, 21:20   Link #2408
leokiko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick2951 View Post
Is it too much to ask that Luscinia at least get angry when he gets defeated?
He obviously has an awesome weapon at his disposal so I'm sure he doesn't care if he lose a bit of his main fleet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nick2951 View Post

As for Fam......could there be a possibility that she is important in some way? Her background (parents) are still not known so maybe there some hidden aspect to her?

Or we just have another Van from FF12 in fact that he minor to the story even though he was the main character.
It's implied she has some kind of backstory, but I don't like her so I hope she turns out like the useless Van from FF12 (which I also hated).
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Old 2012-02-17, 21:35   Link #2409
LystAP
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Originally Posted by leokiko View Post
He obviously has an awesome weapon at his disposal so I'm sure he doesn't care if he lose a bit of his main fleet.
You mean the super-Exile thing he found which made him very very very happy?
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Old 2012-02-17, 21:58   Link #2410
Angmartas
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I may be alone in that camp, but I'd be more annoyed if Sara didn't stay pissed at Vasant for at least a while. For all that she's one of the good guys and among my favorites (the Ades generals cast), Vasant has been doing an absolutely craptastic job of handling Sara. She means well, but she keeps forgetting the one thing that Fam, for once, immediately caught on: she might have a title and a nifty hairdress, but Sara's a ten year old orphan.

Vasant starts out as part of the problem. When her conscience kicks in (over her dead countrymen, not Sara, who had by that point failed to be enough for her to speak up thrice), she dumps it on the poor kid all at once, complete with pictures, and asks her to agree to kill basically everyone she grew up with. Then instead of focusing her speeches on, say, peace, putting an end to the war, or whatever could be a decent goal, she chooses to focus them on killing Luscinia. That's all well and good Vasant, except Sara, the little girl Luscinia carted around as a kid and who runs to him arms out when he returns home? She's right here. And by the way, you're speaking for her through the whole meeting. Actually, you're speaking for her pretty much all the time. Way to go.

All this from the person who thought riding on Kayvan's shoulder was risky.

Even Alauda, of all people, managed to think of Sara first thing when Sadri sent news of the rebellion. Was it for tactical reasons? Probably (though that's debatable, since all it would've done is draw everyone's attention). But Vasant keeps passing Sara over even when thinking tactically. Whose bright idea was it to take Sara to Boreas at all, knowing it would be a battle site, and one with people she loved on both sides to boot? How was this supposed to not end in total disaster?

You know you fail at paying attention to someone when Fam and Alauda do it better than you...

For the record, Vasant's utter failure in this (and the moments it punches her in the gut, like when she stumbles on Sara playing with Fam) is one of the reasons I like her as a character. She's the protagonist's side of the Luscinia coin: good intentions, terrible execution, with the Augusta as an excuse. Sweeping it under the table as okay because Luscinia did worse (nevermind that nobody knows what Luscinia is doing) would be a waste of a perfectly good flawed character.
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Old 2012-02-17, 22:43   Link #2411
encia
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@ Angmartas

Other generals should follow Sara Augusta's wishes not follow Luscinia. Luscinia and other generals doesn't show the real situation and the implementation to Sara Augusta. When the truth was shown, Sara has acted appropriately.

Luscinia has lied to Sara Augusta in relation to the recent purging of Luscinia's political rivals and has a pattern of lying.

Stating "Gloria Augusta" is meaningless if the generals didn't follow Sara Augusta.

Anyway, Luscinia promptly dumps Sara when He reached the northern lands i.e. He used Sara to reach his true goals.

Last edited by encia; 2012-02-17 at 23:05.
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Old 2012-02-17, 22:50   Link #2412
leokiko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LystAP View Post
You mean the super-Exile thing he found which made him very very very happy?
Yep, that's the one

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angmartas View Post
I may be alone in that camp, but I'd be more annoyed if Sara didn't stay pissed at Vasant for at least a while. For all that she's one of the good guys and among my favorites (the Ades generals cast), Vasant has been doing an absolutely craptastic job of handling Sara. She means well, but she keeps forgetting the one thing that Fam, for once, immediately caught on: she might have a title and a nifty hairdress, but Sara's a ten year old orphan.

Vasant starts out as part of the problem. When her conscience kicks in (over her dead countrymen, not Sara, who had by that point failed to be enough for her to speak up thrice), she dumps it on the poor kid all at once, complete with pictures, and asks her to agree to kill basically everyone she grew up with. Then instead of focusing her speeches on, say, peace, putting an end to the war, or whatever could be a decent goal, she chooses to focus them on killing Luscinia. That's all well and good Vasant, except Sara, the little girl Luscinia carted around as a kid and who runs to him arms out when he returns home? She's right here. And by the way, you're speaking for her through the whole meeting. Actually, you're speaking for her pretty much all the time. Way to go.

All this from the person who thought riding on Kayvan's shoulder was risky.

Even Alauda, of all people, managed to think of Sara first thing when Sadri sent news of the rebellion. Was it for tactical reasons? Probably (though that's debatable, since all it would've done is draw everyone's attention). But Vasant keeps passing Sara over even when thinking tactically. Whose bright idea was it to take Sara to Boreas at all, knowing it would be a battle site, and one with people she loved on both sides to boot? How was this supposed to not end in total disaster?

You know you fail at paying attention to someone when Fam and Alauda do it better than you...

For the record, Vasant's utter failure in this (and the moments it punches her in the gut, like when she stumbles on Sara playing with Fam) is one of the reasons I like her as a character. She's the protagonist's side of the Luscinia coin: good intentions, terrible execution, with the Augusta as an excuse. Sweeping it under the table as okay because Luscinia did worse (nevermind that nobody knows what Luscinia is doing) would be a waste of a perfectly good flawed character.
So, you are saying it's better to blind her of everything that is happening than to actually show that to her? I agree that Vasant has exposuring her to too much crap, and it could be done better, but it still pisses me off that Sara is pissed with her. Vasant is only person that DIDN'T try to do things behind her back, and is actually showing her how they are going to proceed.
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Old 2012-02-17, 23:11   Link #2413
encia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leokiko View Post
Yep, that's the one

So, you are saying it's better to blind her of everything that is happening than to actually show that to her? I agree that Vasant has exposuring her to too much crap, and it could be done better, but it still pisses me off that Sara is pissed with her. Vasant is only person that DIDN'T try to do things behind her back, and is actually showing her how they are going to proceed.
Spoiler for ..:

Last edited by encia; 2012-02-17 at 23:34.
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Old 2012-02-17, 23:50   Link #2414
Angmartas
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@ encia

I never said Luscinia did good by Sara or told her what was going on. I said that Vasant was doing too little too late, and badly to boot, and that it'd be a shame if the series ended up painting it as good just because the antagonist did worse. Two wrongs don't make a right, etc. None of the Generals are following Sara, Vasant included. If they did, there'd be no war going on at all. All of Sara's orders, so far, either came from Luscinia or Vasant, never Sara herself. All Sara got to do was sign papers and wish everyone would just stop fighting.

Jury's still out on whether or not Luscinia truly dropped Sara or the former Augusta - I'm waiting until I see what he found, what it does and what he'll use it for first. But I completely agree with you that he dragged her into this mess by proxy in any case and that the body count it took to get there is ridiculous. I don't want to see his crap swept under the table either!


@ leokiko:

Well, Vasant did go behind Sara's back up until the Keios provincial fleet got destroyed, if we want to nitpick, and though she did tell Sara what was going on in the end, she's still doing all the decision-making in her place, which makes informing her kind of moot. Vasant's doing a great job at thinking of the Augusta's reputation, but completely forgetting that there's a child under the fancy title. She's also forgetting it with Millia. (Yes, I'm one of the two and a half people who think that Fam, for all of her myriad failures, had the right of it when she interrupted the meeting-turned-lynch-mob.)

But as I said above, I'm not calling for a witch hunt on Vasant - I love Vasant. I just hope that her failure to truly consider Sara beyond her status as Augusta doesn't get conveniently forgotten or solved in five seconds the way the "seeing Giselle beyond her Navigator status" thing was. This season's been handing us lose/lose situations and morally gray people that were mostly absent from season 1, and I don't want it to go to waste. If all the "bad generals" die and all the "good generals" are painted as doing the best possible thing, it'll just feel cheap. I'm kind of hoping everybody lives and we get people standing on trial for once instead of the usual "all is forgiven" or "the bad guys die in battle" endings.

Pipe dream, I know.
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Old 2012-02-18, 00:12   Link #2415
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Angmartas View Post
None of the Generals are following Sara
Sara is a child, you said it yourself. How can Vasant do what Sara wants if what she wants is everyone to be happy and rainbows and unicorns? Vasant can't do that, because Luscinia is already out there killing people and digging up a doomsday machine that he'll probably use to burn the world to cinders.

There's only one thing Vasant can do at this point: go up there and stop Luscinia, and that's exactly what she's doing. It's not what Sara wants, and she knows it. But Luscinia won't stop not matter what (his maniacal laughter in episode 16 shows that clear enough) so there's no other choice.
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Old 2012-02-18, 01:16   Link #2416
-|(aGe-BuNsHiN-
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probably a bit late since you are all talking about episode 16....but the 15.5 recap just made me realize how S2 "bright and light" the series has become.

For a lack for a better word, this series seems like a chick flick where every single character of some importance is an emotional girl...except for perhaps Dio. They can make a show very good even with an female lead/cast (Claymore) but they seemed to have gone for the lets-sing kumbaya and make up approach. Anyone else agree or am I being a stereotypical chauvinist?
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Old 2012-02-18, 01:18   Link #2417
Angmartas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Sara is a child, you said it yourself. How can Vasant do what Sara wants if what she wants is everyone to be happy and rainbows and unicorns? Vasant can't do that, because Luscinia is already out there killing people and digging up a doomsday machine that he'll probably use to burn the world to cinders.

There's only one thing Vasant can do at this point: go up there and stop Luscinia, and that's exactly what she's doing. It's not what Sara wants, and she knows it. But Luscinia won't stop not matter what (his maniacal laughter in episode 16 shows that clear enough) so there's no other choice.
I'm not criticizing Vasant taking action, but the way in which she's doing it. Vasant is waging war in the Augusta's name, raising her flag and claiming that she is doing it all to protect the Augusta's feelings and wishes, when Sara herself doesn't want any of it. It was wrong when Luscinia did it, and it's still wrong now. Vasant shouldn't get a free pass to "Gloria Augusta" because the enemies are worse. If she wants to do what she thinks is best, then she should be doing things in her own name and capacity as general, or as part of the alliance. If she's going to bypass Sara, the least she could do is stop stamping her name on things.

As for the doomsday machine, I'll keep waiting on that (I'm speaking purely as a viewer here of course - in-universe, it obviously can't be waited on). Luscinia's still counting those sin beads while talking to himself, Liliana's still going along, and for doomsday they've already got an Exile. If they went through all this trouble for something they can already do and Liliana thinks burning the world to cinders is just peachy, someone needs to kick whoever wrote the plot. I'm choosing to give the writers some credit instead and to believe they came up with something better than that.

...Yes, I'm probably dreaming on that one, too.
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Old 2012-02-18, 01:38   Link #2418
Graveyard Duck
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Spoiler for Luscinia's intentions:


As for the combat
Spoiler for Episode 16:


And then
Spoiler for Ep 17 predictions:
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Old 2012-02-18, 01:38   Link #2419
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Angmartas View Post
I'm not criticizing Vasant taking action, but the way in which she's doing it. Vasant is waging war in the Augusta's name, raising her flag and claiming that she is doing it all to protect the Augusta's feelings and wishes, when Sara herself doesn't want any of it. It was wrong when Luscinia did it, and it's still wrong now. Vasant shouldn't get a free pass to "Gloria Augusta" because the enemies are worse. If she wants to do what she thinks is best, then she should be doing things in her own name and capacity as general, or as part of the alliance. If she's going to bypass Sara, the least she could do is stop stamping her name on things.
Ah ok. Now I get where you're coming from.

That been said, I think it's quite possible that Vasant is using Sara's name to gain the credibility that she wouldn't have as just a general. I would even say that there wouldn't be any alliance in the first place if Vasant didn't use Sara's name to sort of "legalize" what she's doing.

Is what she's doing with Sara wrong? Yes. But there's a lot more at stake than Sara's emotional well-being (this is war), and if I'm right about the need to gain credibility then she really didn't have much of a choice to being with.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2012-02-18 at 02:02.
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Old 2012-02-18, 02:00   Link #2420
Cloudy
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After watching ep 17, I feel that Gonzo should might as well rename LE: Fam to LE: The Ades War with Fam not that significant to the storyline as of now.
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