Senkaku/Diaoyu/Tiaoyutai/Pinnacle Islands dispute

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Well that is only if the PRC stop worshipping the hairy red man and go back to the sunny boy, then Taiwan will go back.

That will only be done when one of the next Chinese presidents will announce the same thing Mikhail Gorbachev did to the Soviet Union and its hardcore communist institutions after the failed coup of 1991.

[Yu Ominae]

Some major trouble in Hong Kong and an arson attack in Kobe.

Smoke bomb attack at Chinese Consulate in Fukuoka and security measures at Chinese facilities.

[LeoXiao]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Well that is only if the PRC stop worshipping the hairy red man and go back to the sunny boy, then Taiwan will go back.

Otherwise, we still will have many a detente in the years to come between both of them.

Don't forget the fact that Taiwan is legally an alternative China (the ROC) as opposed to a Chinese territory simply not under PRC control.

Also, I'm curious as to who is "sunny boy" would be.

[flying ^]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

Don't forget the fact that Taiwan is legally an alternative China (the ROC) as opposed to a Chinese territory simply not under PRC control.

so does that mean ROC 'Taiwan' can also (and still) claim the mainland as their territory?



this is like the biggest wtf moment of the day for me if it's true

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by flying ^

so does that mean ROC 'Taiwan' can also (and still) claim the mainland as their territory?



this is like the biggest wtf moment of the day for me if it's true

Yes, They Do

Thanks to the US Navy, the ROC vs PRC civil never finish. I don't think a proper cease fire was ever sign by both parties.

[LifeILL]

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

I believe there's an underlying cultural problem. We get satellite TV over here from China and by far the two most popular and numerous types of programs are either set in the Warring states-Three kingdoms period, romanticising imperialism and a time when China was considered strong and at it's influential/cultural peak, or the whole WWII era with heroic resistance fighters bravely fighting the Japanese war machine with all the stereotypes you can think of. I do think that people are heavily influenced by the society and values which surround them, and patriotism and nationalism go hand in hand. Reason is cute and all but is surprisingly rare and, unfortunately, by definition the less vocal voice.

Hmm...I grew up in China and all I remember was me watching Saint Seiya and other anime they would play at night everyday......

Maybe it has changed since then.


And I'm positive that most of these Chinese protesters don't know anything about those islands, if it wasn't for the retarded media telling them this they wouldn't know anything about no island. They don't care, they're not Fisherman, they don't live on that island. If they really cared why don't they go to that island themselves, settle it the way Palestine and Isreal do it. But they won't.

The ONLY reason they're protesting is because it's Japan. That's the only reason.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

..cowards... they knew they would never won in a fair fight....

no such thing as fair in a fight between nation (bullet or words)

Originally Posted by Urzu 7

From what I can tell, Japan has more of a right to claim those islands than China,

this is base on?

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

I believe there's an underlying cultural problem. We get satellite TV over here from China and by far the two most popular and numerous types of programs are either set in the Warring states-Three kingdoms period, romanticising imperialism and a time when China was considered strong and at it's influential/cultural peak, or the whole WWII era with heroic resistance fighters bravely fighting the Japanese war machine with all the stereotypes you can think of. I do think that people are heavily influenced by the society and values which surround them, and patriotism and nationalism go hand in hand. Reason is cute and all but is surprisingly rare and, unfortunately, by definition the less vocal voice.

actually the most popular time period for drama are the Song and Ming dynasty fighting against the Jin, Mongols and the Manchu. Then the Qing period, usually rebelling against the Qinq early on or later date with late Qing against the Foreigner (especially the Japanese).

there is actually very few drama set in the Three Kingdom period. You might have mistaken period drama set in the early Han dynasty or the Tang.

[flying ^]

srsly...
i'm like what???' when this popped out! (after goog search + wiki redirect)




keyword here is Irredentism

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Kyuu

What really bothers me about this whole thing is: Taiwan.

It seems: they're so supportive of mainland China, such that the island might as well rejoin the mainland.

They play with China while maintaining de facto independence....wins both ways in their eyes. That's basically KMT's plan.

[Yu Ominae]

I saw a BBC broadcast on TV on the protests with a Chinese man being asked if China should declare war on Japan in a protest march.

The man said yes.

[Sumeragi]

The reason why Taiwan claims all that land is to keep the façade of ROC alive for a future when unification talks happen. If Taiwan ever gave up those claims, then they're basically recognizing defeat and thus revert to a rogue province status.

[Ithekro]

Both Taiwan and China agree that the islands should be administered from Taiwan.

What they don't agree on are things like: who should be negotiating with Japan. What the islands should be called, and who controls Taiwan.

Japan saids those islands are their's by way of treaties with the last legal administrators of the islands...the United States. The Chinas say that prior treaties say that either Japan gave up their rights to those islands (and thus the US had no right to hand them back to Japan) or that the prior treaties state that the new agreements were suppose to be approved by all involved Allied parties and China (a Allied nation during the war) did not approve.

Japan's other problem is that they do not recognize Taiwan as a country (not sure why...probably a policy thing like with the Americans where Taiwan is not officially a country, as China is the country...but unofficially Taiwan gets a mountain of military aid to keep China from being in total control). I'm fairly sure they aren't trying to regain it as Formosa again, and I don't image there are any Taiwanese that want to rejoin with Japan as Formosa to piss off China even more than they are doing now with the ROC.

[Urzu 7]

Originally Posted by Yu Ominae

I saw a BBC broadcast on TV on the protests with a Chinese man being asked if China should declare war on Japan in a protest march.

The man said yes.

I'm pretty sure he has little understanding of the situation. It occurred to me that most of these protesters probably don't understand the situation all that well. Japan has its reasons for claiming the islands, but the Chinese news organizations and the Chinese government probably don't tell the Chinese people Japan's reasons for claiming the islands, or paint things very unfairly for Japan in the whole matter.

Like someone said, these protestors are way outta hand and the reason is because Japan is involved. And why does that guy (along with many other) think that China should declare war on Japan over this? Simply because it is Japan.

I know Japan was absolutely terrible to China in World War II, but does the Chinese government even try to lessen the huge anti-Japanese sentiments there? Do they just let it be? Worse yet, do they add to it?

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Japan's other problem is that they do not recognize Taiwan as a country (not sure why...probably a policy thing like with the Americans where Taiwan is not officially a country, as China is the country...but unofficially Taiwan gets a mountain of military aid to keep China from being in total control).

One critical issue is the China seat at the United Nations. Remember that China is a Permanent Member of the Security Council. When the General Assembly voted to accept the PRC as the official representative of China in 1971, the "Republic of China" was left out in the cold. China would never accept Taiwan having its own Permanent Representative at the UN, and countries like the US and Japan that might favor such an arrangement would prefer to avoid entering into a major diplomatic row with China. The Chinese could probably also muster enough votes in the General Assembly to block international recognition of Taiwan as a sovereign state.

So there it sits forlorn just as it has for forty years. It is also excluded from other international fora where its membership would make sense like ASEAN. The only countries with diplomatic relations with Taiwan are a handful of small states in the developing world plus Vatican City.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

[Japan does] not recognize Taiwan as a country (not sure why...probably a policy thing like with the Americans where Taiwan is not officially a country, as China is the country...but unofficially Taiwan gets a mountain of military aid to keep China from being in total control). I'm fairly sure they aren't trying to regain it as Formosa again, and I don't image there are any Taiwanese that want to rejoin with Japan as Formosa to piss off China even more than they are doing now with the ROC.

An illustration may help you understand why Taiwan can never be a "country". Imagine the United States in the days of the Civil War. Let's say Abraham Lincoln's administration lost the war and that his government fled to, say, Boston. Massachusetts manages to throw back Confederate armies and the northern government stubbornly survives in "exile" to present day, while the rest of the "Union" is now Confederate.

In the eyes of the Confederate government that now rules from, say, Atlanta, Massachusetts is a breakaway state. That is how Taiwan, where the Koumintang government fled in 1949, appears to communist Beijing today.

Now, of course, US political history and context is such that said Confederate government may eventually recognise Massachusetts as a sovereign country. It is not quite the same for China and Taiwan, largely because of a much older historical tradition in Chinese culture.

The opening lines of historical epic Romance of the Three Kingdoms expresses this tradition succintly: "The Empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide." It has been the aspiration of every Chinese government, once it has been firmly established, to unite the country. In a way, tradition demands that this be so, or the government risks being seen as weak and incapable of protecting the country's sovereignty.

China will not brook any discussion on this matter and it makes this abundantly clear to all other governments in the world.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Urzu 7

Someone in this thread said that you actually have a significant amount of people in Taiwan that want to be part of the PRC. They said something about Taiwan having a polarized populace on the issue.

As an ex-pat, I find that statement to be ludicrous. The only ones in Taiwan that's truly pro-unification would be the old guards (KMT) that had came from China after WW2 in the first place.

Remember, Taiwan was effectively an authoritarian state until the late 80s/early 90s with KMT at the helm, and they continue to retain substantial political power, especially after all the corruption and scandal that plagued the DPP after they had beaten KMT in the elections.

This however, hardly mean a significant amount of people in Taiwan favors unification. The vast majority prefers maintaining the status quo, as they have no desire to going under PRC rule, but also realizes the likely disastrous result if Taiwan ever formally declares independence. There's no love between the PRC and the population in Taiwan, esp. in light of the dismantling and shifting of the manufacturing industry and associated job loss in Taiwan over to China in the last couple decades.

Originally Posted by Urzu 7

Like someone said, these protestors are way outta hand and the reason is because Japan is involved. And why does that guy (along with many other) think that China should declare war on Japan over this? Simply because it is Japan.

I know Japan was absolutely terrible to China in World War II, but does the Chinese government even try to lessen the huge anti-Japanese sentiments there? Do they just let it be? Worse yet, do they add to it?

Such is the stupidity of nationalistic movements. And no, the CCP have little reason to lessen/erase the anti-JP sentiments, as it serves as a useful political tool/distraction.

[aohige]

The polarization is not evenly divided, nor is unifcation supported by the majority.
However, amongst th authorities of Taiwan, it's most certainly polarized and divided between loyalists and indies.

Like you said, the KMT, still is a significant power as a party.

I see them sort of like the zionists in American government.
Not a representation of the US, but holds power and hold over the governing seats.

[Kyuu]

Too bad this thread doesn't have a poll asking the question:

Who rightfully owns the islands?

[Yu Ominae]

I've got a bad feeling if that happens, the pro-Chinese ultranationalists may flood the area and click "It belongs to China!".

Same with Japan.

I'll just laugh if Taiwanese try to claim the islands.

[Ithekro]

Taiwan does claim them, and the Chinese agree with them.