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Old 2004-07-26, 23:38   Link #41
Anthias
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*Blink!* (cough cough)

It getting a bit warm in here....

People wonder why I've never watched Naruto... Perhaps its something to do with the prevelance of flamefests in naruto related forums around the place... (not necessarily here, I wouldn't know, I don't read them) Now, if you'll please excuse me, I think I'll go and get my flame-retardent vest before I say:

What is so good about Naruto? Why does it need that many groups, why do fans of it become so obsessed and discount any other anime (getting hot under the colar in the process) if somebody sugests that Naruto is NOT the best anime ever?

Note that I do not reject the concept that fans are allowed to sub if they like, but why have so many been inspired to do so? and why is it that the patience thing becomes an issue? What, put simply, is so damn great about Naruto anyway?

Please, I am genuinely puzzled here, having NOT EVER watched an episode. Please explain, because those phenomena have not been so prevelant (IME) with other animes that were or are this popular.
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Old 2004-07-26, 23:42   Link #42
Uska
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DekaMaster
I'm not forcing anything on anyone,just stating how I feel. If people don't like that,well that's just to bad. You think it's cool I don't.

That's fine, but you still haven't answered why it's so much different from them doing what we did/do.
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Old 2004-07-27, 00:27   Link #43
Kidd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthias
What, put simply, is so damn great about Naruto anyway?
Most people will answer this question differently, because it contains a whole lot of things. Really, this belongs in another topic, but I can put it short that first of all the world is portrayed very well and it all feels "realistic". There's also a humongous character rooster, everyone doing what they do for different reasons and with different goals. You really get to identify with a load of characters, and understand their feelings inside-out, actually, contrary to how the anime is often portrayed by people who love it mostly for the fights, it's filled with very very much emotional depth that has sent me crying many many times. Also, I mentioned the fights, who all base on a system that is well thought through and very consistent, and that seems restricting in a way but in the end is very varying anyway. This was just a short rant about why Naruto rocks, you really need to watch it yourself to get the full picture. It's a tad slow in the beginning and I found myself not getting properly hooked before ep8, but trust me that it's worth it.

Why so many people sub it, simply means that a lot of different people love it. It surely isn't the best anime ever imho, but it's easily in my top 10, if not even maybe my top 5. And a lot of people seem to think the same thing, more or less everyone will find a specific part of Naruto to be truly wonderful, and that's why it's so successful and why so many sub it, I think.
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Old 2004-07-27, 00:42   Link #44
DekaMaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uska
That's fine, but you still haven't answered why it's so much different from them doing what we did/do.

I have no comment about what your group does do as I have never seen your groups work nor heard of you.
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Old 2004-07-27, 01:00   Link #45
Uska
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DekaMaster
I have no comment about what your group does do as I have never seen your groups work nor heard of you.

I meant we as in the new subbers(my group however isn't new at all...). Let me rephrase it... What's so different from a group like AonE starting a series from a far off ep(cause ep57 of InuYasha isn't close to ep1 at all), and a group like Shin-Otaku doing Naruto from ep77 or so? Or any other group that did the same?
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Old 2004-07-27, 01:21   Link #46
Soulfang
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Personally, I think Naruto isn't -that- great of an anime when really closely looked at, but it's damn addicting :P

I'd post more but I'm tired. XD
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Old 2004-07-27, 01:38   Link #47
Imazul
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Lightbulb

Quote:
What is so good about Naruto? Why does it need that many groups, why do fans of it become so obsessed and discount any other anime (getting hot under the colar in the process) if somebody sugests that Naruto is NOT the best anime ever?


*put flameproof suits (like that could work anyway)*

Naruto is like the reincarnation of the Dragonball phenomena, its not thet great of a serie but theres an addicting side to it, the battles, the characters (stereotyped but in a good way), the animation (its better than most anime), the music )I didnt watch the last 60 Naruto episode but I remember that some of the music was really good, particularly a power-metal fighting song that my friend's band like to play) and all the other elements to make it a good anime.

Of course Naruto isnt the best anime, theres is no best anime because theres no way inm hell 100% of the anime fans around the world could say only 1 anime is the best.. But you know what the worst part is? Once Naruto get liscenced all the damns kids in USA will be in the street performing jutsu and other stuff they do in Naruto.

Narto is surwely not the best anime, I losse interest easily in powerlevel type anime, but for some people it is so you cant just go and insult it (unless of course its a Narutard that bashes all other anime)



People are not patient anymore because of little group that brings speedy subs. Then the average viewers (watch 2 or 3 serie) ask himself :" If that group does it that fast, every group should, its not fair for us fans that get free anime subbed by unpayed groups that does it only for fun!" (ok maybe you cant cut a bit on that last sentence.

In other words, its just a matter of educating people with post like these a good forum community.
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Old 2004-07-27, 01:45   Link #48
Hiou
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well.. getting back to the original question of why no one can wait nemore..
I am also oldschool, I remeber waiting months for new eps.
But back then, u were lucky if even 1 group was releaseing a series. Now there is 10 groups to every 1 series. So oversubbing is how it has to be... I hate it too, but stop bitching. It is only gonna get worse. New groups pop up every day
and they have to release first to get noticed, or all the work they put into subbing it, is for nothing... So why dont they just stop and wait for others to release...? Becuase they obvioulsy dont want to. We also need to remeber that the adverage age of a subber is 16... So we are dealing with little ass kids, of course when I was 16 I would have taken offense to that coment :P But yes, u are little ass kids and given "power" at some levels being a subber, some more than others. I am happy that they are subbing and finding postive ways to spend their time. I hope 30 more Naruto subs groups pop up, Have fun. In the same breath, if u can find something to sub that u will enjoy that is not oversubber like Naruto, please do so, cuase chances are people are also wanting that series :P Fansubbers are the only reason I dont have to wait for Bandai or something to release anime, so thanks :P
The Shitty part is that leechers kill fansubs and give them a reason to be... SO fuck the leecher, do what u want!Enjoy subbing, if someone DLs it, more power to u. And to all you ungrateful leechers, stop posting in fourms and stop talking channels, just DL what u want to watch and STFU! Because you will be the death of the fansub world, if u keep making subbers feel like shit.
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Old 2004-07-27, 01:46   Link #49
Kasshin
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There's a difference between continuing a series with a new group name, and starting off fresh somewhere in the middle of a series. Nobody said anything about Onigiri continuing Shadow Skill where R-B left off, right? Because it makes sense for them not to reencode all of their earlier work just so it has a new group name on it. Or there's the situation in where a group that's been working on a series dies off. In the case of Inuyasha, early fansubs' quality was all over the place, so I'm sure many groups picked it up when others were not up to their standards. I'm not sure about the groups mentioned, but I'm sure most certainly did not start their first series, somewhere in the middle, in the way the current Naruto groups started. I wasn't into fansubbing back then, so I don't know the story behind all that. So... I'll let them come forward and tell their story behind it

Okay, so there may be complaints about AonE/Anbu's editing on Naruto, but I'm sure none of the issues were major enough to release another fansub for. Especially if it meant having a supposedly nicely edited fansub, while having everything else subpar.

I am curious as to why there were so many Naruto groups popping up, and nobody offered to help TW back then, who were openly asking for help. When I heard from them last... they had one person doing everything but translate. I'm sure he wouldn't mind getting some help, even if it was from an experienced newbie fansubber. Especially for certain tasks where any amount of help would lessen the workload, like maybe rough timing or 1st pass editing.
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Old 2004-07-27, 02:24   Link #50
Mgz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab
30 groups (27 releases) - and thats not counting the rejected/fakes.

Naruto sucks... Naruto fanboys suck more... Naruto fansubbers (Except the original groups) suck the most...
Woot, so Naruto is even worst than Inuyasha (at least Inuyasha fansubbers is not sux, (A-K) )

/me well, at least from this thread, I feel more comfortable not to be the only person that drop/dun watch Naruto

I'm fine with waiting through. Come on people, just watch another anime/movies/ or listen to some music, or simply just go outside and get some ffesh air
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Old 2004-07-27, 03:18   Link #51
complich8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uska
What's so different from a group like AonE starting a series from a far off ep [...] and a group like Shin-Otaku doing Naruto from ep77 or so? Or any other group that did the same?
Man ... I knew I would get drawn back into this thread area again before all was said and done. I was hoping all these threads would just die... but I guess people aren't done venting their spleens yet. This is probably going to be another of those long, drawn-out complich8-rants, so strap yourself in.

I can't comment on Inuyasha, because it was before my time in the group (I wasn't really part of the group at all until Rahxephon and AYA, and wasn't involved in the fansub side of the group until later than that).

I can comment on other projects that we picked up partway through though. Like Ai Yori Aoshi and Rahxephon. AnimeOne, as you know, is a group of evilsubbers (of which I'm proud to be a part ). Our largely international staff didn't (and still to an extent doesn't) care too much about licensing. Region 1 licenses are largely irrelevant to people in sweden, germany, malaysia, singapore and the netherlands (places where our group finds a large portion of its members).

We picked up AYA when it was licensed and therefore dropped by the etg-based E-F&A-O (and we styled our episodes similarly to theirs, and generally made an attempt to pick up the torch they had to put down). We picked up RahXephon when the ANBU-HQA team dropped it for the same reason. I think Inuyasha and Infinite Ryvius were picked up under the same circumstances -- the groups we were following after had publicly announced their dropping of the series (I could be wrong on that though, I wasn't around at the time).

Our lack of duplication of their efforts is an acknowledgement of the quality of their work: we didn't see the need to sub AYA from episode 1, because e-f&a-o did a damned great job on it. We didn't need to sub rahxephon from 1 because ANBU and HQA did a damned great job on it. Consider our starting point an homage to the work that they did, and nothing more. Other groups have acted similarly, and I think you named several instances of that.

When bakasan first entered the naruto scene, he did so because we had an unavoidable 2-3 week lag in our releases. He saw there was a high demand for regular releases, and he met that demand. He continued when after that lag our team ended up operating a bit slower -- releasing 5 days after air instead of 2. When our releases sped up a bit more, he decided to do things differently, and did different video type releases (realmedia if I remember correctly), because he saw that while people were following him, he still liked what we did. His actions reflected his desire to step in and meet a community demand without showing disdain or disrespect for the groups that he was basically filling in for. He was just making people happy, doing what he could do. While I don't personally agree with his stated motives, he acted according to his beliefs and his desires and skills, and I think his conduct was generally above reproach.

I think his plan of "satisfying the leecher hordes" backfired though. It backfired like Appeasement... rather than calming the hunger of the impatient viewers, it gave them a taste of faster releases than anyone else was capable of, by cutting corners on editing, neglecting typesetting pretty much altogether, and spending no time doing the stuff that "regular" fansubbers consider mandatory. The leechers wanted more, it was clear from the download numbers that they didn't care whether the "necessities" for mainstream subbers were there or not, they just wanted their fix. The floodgates opened.

Other speed-subber groups appeared around bakasan's readymade scripts. They weren't meeting the need that bakasan detected. They weren't filling a gap, they were just expressing either their disdain for the ANBU-AonE release, or their desire for popularity. At least, that was the sentiment they seemed to express with their releases. That's all fine, they're entitled to their opinions like everyone else, but the way they did stuff was basically rude. A few very contemptible groups rose up in this premise, and I'm glad to see that most of them have collapsed.

Well, when bakasan finally quit, a lot of groups based on his scripts seemed to dry up too. He had brought fansubbing to the masses, made it accessible to more people by making translators and translated timed scripts obtainable without actually having a translator. While he was releasing scripts, anyone at all could trivially encode their own episode, or could do a bit of cleanup work or experiment with typesetting or retiming or editing. Fansubbing in general wasn't something that required a bunch of special skillsets to break into anymore. When he left, there were a lot of people who had learned basic skills who wanted their fast releases. An explosion of newbie-subbers was Bakasan's real legacy, more than anything else.

Again, there was a bit of a gap between air time and release time -- we were back down to regular friday or saturday releases, occasionally going longer than that but not much so. People had gotten used to their wednesday night or thursday releases from bakasan, and yeah, there wasn't much patience for friday night or saturday, or god-forbid sunday releases. Call it spoilage of the people who formed a routine and didn't care what they used to fill it, if you want to call it anything.

Bakasan's quitting opened up room for groups with their own translators but without the experience that someone like Bakasan brought to the table, like Bakafish and Shin-Otaku. Bakafish fansubbing happen for pretty much the same purpose as Bakasan's fansubs did, as some people from the group have said in several places which I'm far too uninterested to go find. Shin-otaku formed because they wanted to fansub something, and all liked naruto. Neither of these groups demonstrates the raw disdain for previous work done (by my group and by others) that the groups between bakasan and them demonstrated. Neither group has claimed to be in particular better than the experienced group on the project, and I have yet to see any of the members of either group participate in any comparison of their quality to any other group (at least not in any real direct way). Shin-Otaku has always maintained that they are a group of newbies, trying to learn the ways of fansubbing and working on a series that they like. From their attitude alone, I tend to believe that. Bakafish seems to operate on the same ideas that bakasan's releases did: "There's demand for fast subs, we'll provide fast subs".


I can't speak for ANBU on this, but one of animeone's founding premises is "We sub what we like". We like what we do. The mere existence of a group of people that has the motivation to work on a project, the time to dedicate themselves to it, and a reason to do it is enough in our little world to cause us to pick up that series, just as lack of committed staff to work on a project is enough of a reason for us not to pick something up.

I know that given the option to go back and re-sub episodes 1-26 of Naruto myself now, I most certainly wouldn't have anything to do with it. We've already seen it, we know what happens, we can keep moving forward. Why should I renounce what has already been done? Why should I reject the work that I have accepted and grown from? Sure, I could probably do a better job working on some early episode of naruto than I did before. Sure, we could find better video and audio sources, we could apply modern encoding techniques (our old stuff was all divx 3.11, remember), I could personally re-edit the stuff and make it flow and sound better. But I wouldn't personally care about it. The old episodes were good enough to satisfy me then, and I have better things to do than to spend 4 hours and 20 or so bucks of my money per episode to make them better.

Why should S-O go back and re-sub the entire series, then? All that would accomplish is explaining to the world exactly to what extent they disliked our releases and Toriyamaworld's, to the point of saying "These aren't even worth acknowledging, we need to completely recreate their efforts from scratch". **

And could that effort even be "pure"? Your understanding of the series is colored by crustol's or bakasan's or whoever's translation that you watched. With old releases, if you've seen it before you might translate things differently, or edit things differently. "You read my words, you can't un-read them".

So, what would the point be?

For that matter, why did this thread become an indictment of speedsubbers? It looked like it was started as an indictment of nondiscerning leechers! Which would be its own relatively interesting discussion, albeit slightly less caustic in nature.

Finally, why do so many people feel the need to rate different fansubs, and defend their ratings so vehemently? Nobody is soliciting the stellar endorsements or equally stellar denouncements that we're seeing here.

All of this rabid energy boiling the pot isn't from the fansubbers. If you want to bitch, maybe your focus should be the force that fuels and validates the thing you don't like -- kind of like treating the disease rather than the symptoms.

**(Incidentally, this is something I've found disappointing about the attitude of a few S-O staff members in this thread: You're letting yourselves get pushed around into doing things without having your own reason to do them. You're accepting their indictment of your actions as valid, and so you're validating it. If you've got any integrity as people, you'll decide whether or not you want to sub the whole damned series or not based on your own reasons, not what someone says to demonstrate their point)
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Old 2004-07-27, 06:47   Link #52
SirCanealot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidd
Do you promise to eat those words on a printed paper when it happens? I won't stop trying to find staff enough to do the project (I am -not- in love with Naruto enough to sub it all on my own, I wouldn't do that to any show actually, more than maybe 1 ep or 2) until I'm doing it, and if you promise then I'm looking forward to your eating of a printed paper :P
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Old 2004-07-27, 06:51   Link #53
zindryr
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I would quote complich8, but there is much to much to quote, so just scroll up a couple of posts and read if you haven't already. Basically wanted to say that I agree with you on all of your points there complich8, but sadly people won't read much of your well thought out post. I still thank you for taking your time to type it out nonetheless.
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Old 2004-07-27, 08:22   Link #54
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complich8 : Great post! I agree with you.

Not that I don't like uska's en elly's posts
Anyway, I'm not here to flame the people of this thread etc.

Througout this thread I've heard people say in relation to why fansubbers fansub is;

1: To gain leechers etc.
2: Out of love for the series.

(that was the general idea I was getting anyway)
I personally think that things can't be seen in such black and white terms. Of course someone who fansubs would like to people to download his/her version. That's just natural, otherwise all his work would be for nothing. People want to get appreaciated for things. Especially if the things they do are even for free and of reasonable quality.

On behalf on SO :
I don't know how much I am entitled to speak on behalf on SO.
But I do know we don't release Naruto with the sole intention of getting people to download it. Nor to get less people downloading other people's works.
We just sub the ep, of course we want people downloading it (reason stated above). We're just some orinary people doing something as a group while having some fun and all. What's wrong with that.
(Maybe I am repeating some things here from other people. If that's the case. Sorry, I didn't mean to steal your arguments. It simply means I agree with you, be glad bla bla)

As stated in above posts : People shouldn't have the right to bash and flame fansubbers. Whatever reason they use to fansub something. you can't stop them from doing it. They're still giving out their work for free, wheter it be good or bad quality. If people for some reason don't like a group subbing something, they can just stop downloading it from that group. It's a simple as that. but keep in mind, not everyone thinks the same and especially not everyone thinks like you do.
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Old 2004-07-27, 08:59   Link #55
LordBrian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uska
That's fine, but you still haven't answered why it's so much different from them doing what we did/do.
Answer: there is no difference. Assuming the series being picked up in the middle wasn't just licensed, of course. If one group is working quite nicely on a series from the beginning, and another jumps into the middle right where that group left off, then it doesn't matter if it's AonE or your group -- they will still be accused of speedsubbing, doing it for the leechers, and generally being a bunch of bitches. Your motivations are irrelevant, since this is exactly how it will appear to most people.

Thus my earlier implied suggestion, that if you decide to do the same thing in the future, keep the releases internal to save yourself from these accusations. Unless, of course, you really don't care about the reputation of your group as you keep saying. Then you can do whatever the hell you want.

To Kidd: People are usually judged on results, not promises. Until people actually see the previous eps released by your group, nothing you say makes one bit of difference to their arguments. Your counter-argument that you will definitely get around to subbing those episodes "soon" only weakens what you are trying to say.
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Old 2004-07-27, 09:58   Link #56
Uska
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBrian
Answer: there is no difference. Assuming the series being picked up in the middle wasn't just licensed, of course. If one group is working quite nicely on a series from the beginning, and another jumps into the middle right where that group left off, then it doesn't matter if it's AonE or your group -- they will still be accused of speedsubbing, doing it for the leechers, and generally being a bunch of bitches. Your motivations are irrelevant, since this is exactly how it will appear to most people.

Thus my earlier implied suggestion, that if you decide to do the same thing in the future, keep the releases internal to save yourself from these accusations. Unless, of course, you really don't care about the reputation of your group as you keep saying. Then you can do whatever the hell you want.

I'll quote you cause complich8's post was very long and I agree with both of you. What happened here? AonE had their reasons. So did we. That's the difference, but in the end, it didn't start from ep1. I don't wanna insult anyone, nor AonE(who I have respect for and have friends in). The only ppl i'm against are those who never question anyone and then go questioning and shoving their own ethics up someone else's arse. Nobody goes and questions AonE's motives to do anything, and they question us? C'mon. It's dumb. According to what complich8 said, the reasons we(this time im talking about my group, not subbing in general) do anything is because we felt like it. We liked it, so what nobody forces you to download anything or even pay attention to what we release. We're having fun, that's enough for doing anything,

And as for the internal, well we kill two birds with one stone. We do it for our own enjoyment and amusement, and we make it public so someone can happily leech. You are right about one thing, all the bull we, and anyone else receive, makes you sometimes think it's not worth it. Hell i've had 1 or 2 ppl working with or for me nearly quitting subbing due to that. I wanted to help out this time, but hell i've learned not to really pay attention to what anyone says at all..
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Old 2004-07-27, 10:24   Link #57
LordBrian
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I think you missed my point. AonE's motives are questioned, all the time. Mostly, though, it's pretty obvious what their intentions are (i.e. picking up a series just after it gets licensed because the "legit" groups have all dropped it).

Perhaps you just don't see the crap AonE gets for stealing projects, but it's definitely there.

(As an aside, Snoopy has a rant I completely agree with on his site. While he discusses the state of the manga community, it's almost identical to the anime side of things and has a direct bearing on the discussion in this thread.)
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Old 2004-07-27, 11:31   Link #58
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A piece of Snoopy's rant...

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopy
Now, why does this piss me off when no one has really done this to my group? Because I really really do love this community. I've watched it grow on foundations of respect and friendly competitions between groups and individuals, and then out of no where new groups have begun sprouting up and pissing on everything that's been built for them. Have any of you assholes ever heard of 'communication'!? If you think a group is going too slow and you can do something about it, then why the fuck didn't you offer to help!? Instead you see it as an opportunity to grab a giant fanbase without doing any work at all!? That just doesn't sit right with me. There are tens of thousands of mangas available for translation, yet everyone seems to think that the only ones worth doing are already being done. Jezus christ, if you look in the lists of national manga award winners in Japan, you'll see that 75 percent of them aren't being translated right now. Why? Because all of you are too busy translating Shounen Jump.

My other complaint is actually related to that one in a way. It's the sheer number of groups that have joined the community. Now don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see the community growing at such an incredible rate, but most of you smaller groups simply don't need to be 'groups'. It's just plain counterproductive. Especially the tiny groups that have maybe 2 people and as many projects. You guys would be so much better off simply joining another group and bringing your work with you. Large groups simply make things easier. If you need scans, the odds of finding someone in the group's list of scanners willing to help you is far better than looking on your own. If you need editing or translation help, you have a built-in panel of experts right at your fingertips. And ultimately your work will get to more people thanks to the group's built-in fanbase. It just doesn't make any sense for there to be a hundred little groups when you could all combine into a few dozen larger groups based on your genre preferences. And if you can't decide who to make 'leader', then just set up a name that all of you will release your work under and all work out of a 'group' channel
I agree with him for the most part.

But I think there will always be people that want to get alot of fame and fanbase/leecher with the least amount of effort. These small groups, if they're happy with being small and stuff. Just let them be.
With all these small groups the community will become more complicated and more of a mess.
I think people that just casually move along in the community will recognise the bigger and more established groups (not meaning they always have better quality though).

We shouldn't be trying to shut out these new starting groups either. Maybe the guy/guys really have some talent and are putting out wonderfull subs/scanlations on their own. And no anime/manga community loving person would be irritated by that I guess?

--Hobbit_Marco
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Old 2004-07-27, 13:03   Link #59
Uska
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I agree, why not help the group. I've tried, and i'm sure a lot of other people have too. Just that they either didn't need the help or didn't want the help from me or other ppl I know wanting to help(for any group). :/
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Old 2004-07-27, 13:54   Link #60
Kidd
SD Translator
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Sweden
Age: 33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by complich8
Why should S-O go back and re-sub the entire series, then? All that would accomplish is explaining to the world exactly to what extent they disliked our releases and Toriyamaworld's, to the point of saying "These aren't even worth acknowledging, we need to completely recreate their efforts from scratch". **
This might be what it looks like, that either we feel pushed into doing it, or we will say "hey A/A and TW sucks anyway", but really it's not true. I enjoyed watching both TW and A/A, and I hope lots of more people will also do so (and hey, hopefully even do what crazy little ass me did; download eps from multiple subbers and see different people's work on the same eps - but then again I guess most people aren't narutard enough for that.. bleh, whatever, they do what they want). Thing is, I love those eps myself too, and I'd love to work on them just like I do the new episodes. I hope A/A won't think badly of us or think that we're trying to tell them that your releases are bad, because that's hardly our intention. I just love those eps (my god I'm looking forward to translating ep 30 :]) and I want to do them, out of my own ambition and love, and I want to do it now. I just want to put my own hands on it, but that doesn't mean I take orders from others or don't appreciate other people's work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirCanealot
Blaytant.
You don't know about how much I'll stand corrected.
Looking forward to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBrian
To Kidd: People are usually judged on results, not promises. Until people actually see the previous eps released by your group, nothing you say makes one bit of difference to their arguments. Your counter-argument that you will definitely get around to subbing those episodes "soon" only weakens what you are trying to say.
Perhaps you're right, even though I can't follow your logic all the way. But I didn't say what I did to please the masses or put in the perfect argument or anything - this isn't the election of a president or anything (so hey, no need for me to BS like they all do in their elections :P), I simply said what my ambitions and goals are, nothing more, nothing less. If those ambitions will please others, then well, I guess that's a good thing - but I do this because of myself, not because I want DekaMaster to shut up ;P (btw, don't take that the wrong way, it wasn't intended as a flame or anything, I pretty much just put a random name from the bunch who doesn't like the fact we didn't start at ep1, heh; and being from one of the groups I like a lot your name is easily remembered :P)
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