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GoldenLand · 2014-05-06, 21:32

Genji sending Yasu away to be raised as female is actually one of the more understandable things he did, IMO, taking into account that some real people during that time period did the same things with maimed male babies. While the consequences of that were later known to be catastrophic, at the time it was something that could be done with good intentions, believing that it was the best thing for the child.

That said, it could also be argued that Genji's reason was not the understandable one of well-intentioned failure but merely the most convenient thing for his plans. Imagine him sending a six year old boy whom everyone knew had suffered serious injuries in a major accident, to Rokkenjima as a servant. Even meddling with Yasu's official age wouldn't have stopped Natsuhi and Kinzo getting a clue. That possible reasoning made me think "but it makes Genji sound like a monster" but I do have to acknowledge that some of the things we already know about Genji as facts make him sound rather that way anyway.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1

I've to admit that I agree with Renall about Genji. I can wave away some actions Genji make with various excuses but the whole bunch is... just too much.

I think I've got to agree with this too. The problem with Genji is that so many things are piling up. We can work our way around a few and explain some, but the problem is explaining them all simultaneously.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1

Honestly the only part that I totally didn't expect was Genji randomly showing her corpses and letting her be traumatized by it.
It's... well, the last drop. They aren't trying to help her becoming happy, they're trying to push her to insanity.
Genji has to be completely void of human feelings to think it was okay to show her that... or okay to tell her the truth about it.

And what's Genji sudden need for telling the truth?

He lied and hid truth from Sayo and Kinzo for 17 years of their life and now he has to tell her everything in all its horrible details?

Genji's character still has a lot of potential in some ways. There are a bunch of ways we can read his character. We could say he's a robotic loyal servant who thinks only of obeying his current master (in spirit, if not to the letter), and that in a lot of ways his conscience has been dead for a long time. Perhaps what happened to his family just completely broke him. Or, we could say he lost all will to live after Kinzo's death and that's why he didn't do anything about Yasu's breakdown.

Or, maybe, aside from being loyal, we can take into account that even though he's basically villainous in a lot of ways, the weight of all the things he's done and the secrets he knows could be weighing down his conscience. Maybe he told all those things to Yasu as a form of catharsis. Maybe, Genji has been horrified by the skeletons under the island for all this time and his new master represented a way to talk about it.

Then there's always the idea that, although Genji was loyal to Kinzo, Genji felt a deep resentment towards Kinzo and maybe to the entire family.

And, there's also what we learned about Genji from the manga, that he was once a con-artist, scheming type of person who would do things that would annoy Kinzo but he still wasn't someone Kinzo could stay angry with. And that after the incident that led to Kinzo saving him, Genji wasn't the same and was a lot more servile. And this is all quite in line with what we know of him from the rest of the story: someone scheming who doesn't think about other people's feelings, who later became dedicated to Kinzo as his servant.

Problem is, none of the ways that we can look at Genji make total sense for his actions. And I don't really think that Genji was acting out of malice towards Yasu, but things just seem to be getting worse and worse. We found out not only that he left Yasu to find the skeletons and made a rather bad explanation of it when she asked him about it...but that Genji was AOK with daily sending Yasu in to the study where the frozen, preserved corpse of her (incestuous, crazy, raping, possibly mass murdering) dad/granddad (who died while begging her for forgiveness) is lying and stinking so badly that even Jessica can smell it from a distance? Really, the corpse in the study situation is a big, glaring issue! It's almost on a level with the shoving Yasu into her dead mother's dress so Kinzo can get his forgiveness thing.

But it's not only him. Kumasawa and Nanjo knew about it too. Natsuhi and Krauss didn't know about Yasu being Kinzo's kid or their history, and although they look dreadfully bad for perpetuating the corpse situation, it's not on the same level as the Genji/Kumasawa/Nanjo level of knowledge. Anybody would be going nuts in Yasu's situation. And yet, none of those three said "Hey, let's not send Yasu in there"? Maybe they wouldn't want to cross Natsuhi, but they could have made it so that the person who dealt with the study was solely Genji.

These things are so bad that it tests suspension of disbelief badly. Genji might be emotionally dead enough to fail to pick up on these things, but Kumasawa and Nanjo? Even if they're only out for themselves, it's still a bad thing for them if Yasu goes crazy from stress and spills the beans about Kinzo being dead.

(Makes me want to check the info we have to make sure whether maybe it really was primarily Genji who went into the study, in case I'm being unfair.)

haguruma · 2014-05-07, 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

That possible reasoning made me think "but it makes Genji sound like a monster" but I do have to acknowledge that some of the things we already know about Genji as facts make him sound rather that way anyway.
[...]
And this is all quite in line with what we know of him from the rest of the story: someone scheming who doesn't think about other people's feelings, who later became dedicated to Kinzo as his servant.

I also often wondered how much we are allowed to insert Ronove nto the character development for Genji. Until EP7 we are basically told all of Yasu's development through her fantasy-characters (Shannon, Kanon, Beatrice), so I do wonder how far Ronove also works as a window for Genji's character. Yes, he is written with Yasu's idea of who Genji was in mind, but I always felt that the more the story proceeded the more the meta-characters began to reflect something more.

If we were to take that into account then, yes, Genji was basically loyal to the headship and not to a certain person. On the other hand it's also interesting how from the very beginning Ronove was portrayed as keeping up his mistress' public appearance and working through the cracks that allowed him to steer certain situations. There's also the aspect that he kept acting in the shadows during EP3, 4, and 5, while Genji was shown to have been killed in the First Twilight...

Especially EP3 has a few very interesting scenes where I do wonder whether Ryukishi didn't know yet what to do with the character or if that really reflects Genji in a way: There is him telling Battler about the 1967 Beatrice II, working against Eva-Beato to keep certain people (Beato, George, and Jessica) save from her, him basically double-crossing Eva-Beato and going back to Beato (which, in the light of manga information, would mean him being loyal to the good-natured Yasu but not to the murdering Yasu)...

Yet he never actually goes AGAINST the Beatrices' or Goldsmith's wishes. The one acting on her own behalf (again especially EP3) is shown to be Virgilia (Kumasawa???). Virgilia tries to convince Beatrice to stop at the First Twilight and "remember what she once was", yet is defeated and killed by Beatrice, she attempts to guide Battler on his quest to not defeat but understand and accept Beato.

These things always made me wonder if they are supposed to tell us something about the characters these fantasies are supposed to represent. Well, of course you could also argue that they are equally complete fiction like the Sisters, the Chiesters, or the Eiserne Jungfrauen...

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(Makes me want to check the info we have to make sure whether maybe it really was primarily Genji who went into the study, in case I'm being unfair.)

It is never only Shannon or Kanon in the study, there is always Genji with them.
Well, on the one hand it is to keep up the illusion. Kinzo has the one key and Genji the other, both would never hand them over unless it is for a specificly pointed out reason.
In the Episodes there were only very few instances where Shannon or Kanon actually ever were in the study, and if they were, it was always in the company of Genji. In Confession she also mentions having to talk with Genji about the preservatives and the freezer, so it's likely that she isn't responsible for them.

Despite that, YES, freezer-Kinzo needs a big amount of suspension of disbelief. I actually had to chuckle when it came up, because that's what I actually imagined back when it first came up for Kinzo being dead all along.
It's along the lines of a man shot in the chest jumping acroos roofs, a bed being lifted to the ceiling, crossing a part of the ocean in a raft to create an alibi...basically a very typical element of classical mystery fiction. While there is something akin to a "Prime" here, we're still dealing with a story that presents itself as a mystery...so I just accept it as a wonderfully over the top genre-convention. But in the end...many people have kept corpses in a freezer even in real life.

haguruma · 2014-05-08, 00:41

And I finally got my hands on an affordable copy of the Joker containing Confession(1)...though now I hope the next Tankobon comes soon, since it will probably end right before the beginning of CotGW (and yes that chapter deals with Tohya being found by Ikuko, as will be indicated by the intrductory paragraph).

Spoiler for Confession of the Golden Witch (1):

I will try to get some actual visual examples ready as well. Especially the final part is interesting, because it is very much written and drawn from Sayo's perspective, even having the typical "evil sillouettes" of people (in this case Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa). What they are saying isn't necessarily evil...it's just incredibly selfish.

GoldenLand · 2014-05-08, 01:17

That translation is quite interesting, because it shows that Yasu was someone who very firmly wanted children for her own sake (rather than only because of George wanting them). I don't think that's something that's been clear until now.

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Originally Posted by haguruma

Yet he never actually goes AGAINST the Beatrices' or Goldsmith's wishes. The one acting on her own behalf (again especially EP3) is shown to be Virgilia (Kumasawa???). Virgilia tries to convince Beatrice to stop at the First Twilight and "remember what she once was", yet is defeated and killed by Beatrice, she attempts to guide Battler on his quest to not defeat but understand and accept Beato.

These things always made me wonder if they are supposed to tell us something about the characters these fantasies are supposed to represent. Well, of course you could also argue that they are equally complete fiction like the Sisters, the Chiesters, or the Eiserne Jungfrauen...

Hmm. It's hard to be able to know how much of the things surrounding Ronove and Virgilia are intentional, dropped storylines, or merely noise. But I think your analysis of Ronove and Genji there is a good one.

I'd like to think that Ronove and Virgilia's approaches say something about the characters they represent. Maybe in some ways they represent an ideal that the real people didn't live up to? Ronove, adroitly and charismatically supporting Beatrice and trying to help her with the things she couldn't express, and Virgilia the same, but also being willing to stop her? The translation of Confession of the Golden Witch (1) above directly shows that one of the Virgilia scenes was Kumasawa's. Those characters are clearly very close to the real people in many ways. Maybe they just go to show how well Yasu knew and understood them. She did see them as the closest thing to her parents.

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Originally Posted by haguruma

It is never only Shannon or Kanon in the study, there is always Genji with them.
Well, on the one hand it is to keep up the illusion. Kinzo has the one key and Genji the other, both would never hand them over unless it is for a specificly pointed out reason.

In the Episodes there were only very few instances where Shannon or Kanon actually ever were in the study, and if they were, it was always in the company of Genji. In Confession she also mentions having to talk with Genji about the preservatives and the freezer, so it's likely that she isn't responsible for them.

Despite that, YES, freezer-Kinzo needs a big amount of suspension of disbelief. I actually had to chuckle when it came up, because that's what I actually imagined back when it first came up for Kinzo being dead all along.
It's along the lines of a man shot in the chest jumping acroos roofs, a bed being lifted to the ceiling, crossing a part of the ocean in a raft to create an alibi...basically a very typical element of classical mystery fiction. While there is something akin to a "Prime" here, we're still dealing with a story that presents itself as a mystery...so I just accept it as a wonderfully over the top genre-convention. But in the end...many people have kept corpses in a freezer even in real life.

Of course, the key. That's a relief! I know the freezer thing takes an amount of good ol' mystery suspension of disbelief at the best of times, but the idea of Genji/Kumasawa/Nanjo merrily letting Yasu spend lots of time in there with stinking freezer Kinzo took more than I could muster. If Genji is the one bringing the meals and so forth, it makes a lot more sense.

I thought that a freezer would be the most sensible option, but I thought it would be more likely for it to be somewhere outside the house, like in Kuwadorian. Krauss probably knew about that place at least after a point, and if not, Natsuhi and Krauss could have simply ordered Genji to take care of the issue and not taken care to keep informed about exactly where Kinzo was, just wanting the matter out of their hands. But it looks as if Natsuhi and Krauss really were okay with the simplest option, of having Kinzo stay in the building. I daresay it contributed to Natsuhi's issues a lot. Maybe she really did fool herself into thinking he was alive and liked her.

haguruma · 2014-05-08, 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

That translation is quite interesting, because it shows that Yasu was someone who very firmly wanted children for her own sake (rather than only because of George wanting them). I don't think that's something that's been clear until now.

I also found it quite interesting to learn that she really did love George, quite a lot. The one being shown when she says "It's a lie that I'm related to you" is George, which says quite a lot. I do wonder if George ever actually got to know the truth

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I daresay it contributed to Natsuhi's issues a lot. Maybe she really did fool herself into thinking he was alive and liked her.

Now I had to imagine Natsuhi sitting in the study, talking to frozen Kinzo for an hour....only to remember that that is EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS IN EP1!!!!

GuestSpeaker · 2014-05-08, 10:16

Also interesting to note that the scene with the vase and the cat happened to Yasu and NOT to Beatrice II. I suppose the hint to that was A: how would Yasu know about it otherwise and B: Virilgillia was a person to Yasu, not Beatrice II.

Still, that was a clever trick by Ryu.

Honestly I think Genji had the right idea about sending Yasu away, but he probably should have sent her to a non-Ushiromiya orphanage and just let her grow up not knowing her crazy family origins. The gender reassignment surgery was also not a great idea, but would be very consistent with practices of the time.

Pocuma · 2014-05-08, 10:50

First of all I want to thank Haguruma for buying and taking the time to translate the confession. The new insight is very interesting and it feels like there’s a lot of information that really should have been included in the VN version.

Secondly I have a small question: Was it actually said that Yasu originally was a male but changed to a female? Outright said I mean, or was it implied to be the case but not actually stated?

haguruma · 2014-05-08, 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocuma

Secondly I have a small question: Was it actually said that Yasu originally was a male but changed to a female? Outright said I mean, or was it implied to be the case but not actually stated?

No problem at all. I love Umineko just as much as many other people here and I think it's important to share as much information as we can get.

Regarding the question, it was never outright stated what gender "Lion" was when born. Natsuhi at least doesn't seem to question the child being a boy in EP5, but Lion's statement that he prefers to remain ambiguous about it still stands.

Dr. Nanjo said that Lion suffered injuries to his 下腹部 which can both mean the abdominal or the genital area. It could be it was a girl and they had to take all her plumbing out or it was a boy and his equipment was ripped off. Both would result in an underproduction of sexual hormones...so we can't really say for sure.
I still think that it is supposed to imply that Lion was male, but in the end that remains a catbox for now.

Pocuma · 2014-05-08, 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

Regarding the question, it was never outright stated what gender "Lion" was when born. Natsuhi at least doesn't seem to question the child being a boy in EP5, but Lion's statement that he prefers to remain ambiguous about it still stands.

Alright, thanks for the clarification!

I agree that Yasu/Lion being born male seem to be the implied answer, but I guess the truth was left ambiguous because it’s a very delicate issue. I still got a bit confused though, since a lot of people seem to address the issue as if it was an actual stated fact.
(On a side note; I believe the Umineko wiki currently has Yasu’s gender written as “Biologically Male (raised as female)”. Although I know the wiki aren’t always accurate it added further confusion for me.)

Edit:
Another thing I’m curious about:

Yasu’s feelings for Battler are supposed to be love, in the same way she feels for George and Jessica. But she has not had any kind of contact with Battler for at least six years, so she doesn’t really know if he’s still the same person as the one she knew as a kid... a lot can happen in the span of six years. (Although she could have heard stories about him from others.) From what I’ve read of haguruma’s translation Battler seems to have been the first person around her age to truly befriend her, which I guess is a big factor for her attachment to him. But it still seems (in my personal opinion) that her “love” for Battler at its best falls more in line with “loving a shadow” since she doesn’t really “know” the person he currently is, or possibly something close to an obsession looking at it at its worse. (Not to say that obsessions doesn’t seem to run in the Ushiromya family, but hopefully you people understand what I’m trying to say). I guess that having some lingering feelings remaining for a first love isn’t really that odd, but to put it on the same level as the other two (whom she has had a regular contact with) seems a bit… I don’t know. I have a bit of a hard time understanding it I guess.

I don’t have anything against either character. I simply just cannot wrap my head around this. So I thought I could ask how people around here interpret it.

jjblue1 · 2014-05-08, 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

And I finally got my hands on an affordable copy of the Joker containing Confession(1)...though now I hope the next Tankobon comes soon, since it will probably end right before the beginning of CotGW (and yes that chapter deals with Tohya being found by Ikuko, as will be indicated by the intrductory paragraph).

Thank you so much for the translation! Though the chap dealing with Tohya being found by Ikuko took place just before our confession... Or are you meaning another one?

LOL, before the scene in which Tohya remembered his past was shown I was considering the crazy idea about Tohya actually being Sayo who pretended to be Battler to trick Ange into hoping her brother survived... But since Tohya remembered everyone minus Battler I guess it's impossible but it would have been interesting.

About the translations:

*sigh* it's sad even Sayo sort of realized it wasn't a smart idea to have her working so younger so that the age gap with the other servants would cause her to be bullied. Really, Genji, if she could realize this, why couldn't you?

*sigh* and I knew she was feeling sad, scared and alone but it's even more sad to hear her admitting it.

It's a nice touch she worried she overdid things with Berune. It seems to imply she didn't really want to scare her so badly... even if another side of her felt like she deserved it.

I wonder if Sayo feels Kumasawa, Genji and Nanjo are so nice to her just because that's the top of kindness she had experienced. Well, probably they looked nice since she apparently was just some random kid... but I think she was way more touched by it just because she had nothing else but this.

Though it's interesting... in this perspective Sayo seems much closer to Clair and Gaap than to Shannon...

Well, it's good the dream of marrying and having children was also her own. It sort of implies George wasn't forcing his dream on her but they were sharing the same dream... and probably before discovering the truth this felt like one of George's good points... but afterward George's words were likely only a painful reminder of what she couldn't have.

Sayo and Battler's relation is cute. It's nice to see another bit of it.

Just wondering... when she talks about a promise... do we see them over the balcony? In Ep 5 we see Battler remembering making a promise there (a scene original for the manga and never showed in Ep 7) and there is also where Beato met Battler in Ep 4 so it's a nice touch.

LOL, Sayo trying to become Battler's ideal woman is also cute yet sad as we know all her efforts will fail.

... and it becomes really sad when we see how she's aware she's deceiving herself and considers herself a girl with no friends. Evidently she didn't manage to make them at school and doesn't count Jessica as such. I don't blame her. As friendly and open minded as Jessica is she's still the grandaughter of her boss. It's not as easy as it might seem to forget this.

I'm not quite convinced by how she jumped on the idea of becoming happy by living as a boy. It's not like she could fulfil her dream to get married and have babies as a boy. But Kanon is introverted. Maybe it's just a way to cut herself out of the world more than a quest for happiness.
Also it sort of feel forced. As she doesn't know yet she's Lion she needs Genji and Kumasawa's help to trick Natsuhi which could cause them troubles. It feels weird she felt like asking it. But maybe things went much smoother and slower than I think and what started with just a short prank became a habit.

I sort of feel like banging my head on the screen at how Kinzo thinks to redeem himself. But well, considering he had been a horrible father maybe he had no idea how to act.

It's also nice to see that her relation with George wasn't bad but actually pretty nice in the beginning.

And when they volunteer to tell Sayo anything I start to bang my head against the wall.
Really, did she need to know her mother was Kinzo's daughter? Couldn't they have told her Beatrice was already pregnant when she met Kinzo? It's not like Sayo could know at which age Kuwadorian Beato died and do the math...

And the master deeply regretted all this so he did what? Gave her the gold he stole in place of giving it to the children he felt nothing for when he died? Such a kind act. It really took Kinzo lot of efforts...

And how do they know about Natsuhi pushing the servant? Natsuhi only confessed it on the grave of the husband of said servant. Did they eavesdropped? But they seemed fearful of Natsuhi so what? Did the servant manage to survive long enough to tattle it out before dying and Genji kept silent about it?

It's scary how they don't realize they're traumatizing her further and further. And the fact that they were 'careless' in their care makes me think they basically handled everything themselves. They didn't even had the common decency to take her to a specialist to deal with all this. I can understand Nanjo patching her up in a rush, but shouldn't they have carried her to a specialist afterward?

I'm unsure... Nanjo talks about her not being able to make kids and she talks about her not being able to make love. Was the work they did so bad she can't even make love or she's jumping to conclusions?

Poor girl though. I knew she had it bad but... really guys there's a thing called tact, you know? Expecially in dealing with clearly traumatic info.

About Ronove and Virgilia:

I think with them we stumble in the classical old problem. They show up starting from Ep 3 so... do they reflect Tohya perception of how Kumasawa and Genji would act, do they reflect Battler's knowledge of how they acted or Sayo also viewed them as such? I'll say their names and look came from Sayo as Maria met them but I'm not sure about their actions in the gameplay parts of Ep 3 and co...

About Kinzo:

The easiest way to deal with Kinzo was to burn him while the servants and Jessica weren't on the island (same as the corpses underground). I really don't get why they prefer to keep him in a fridge. It's not like it'll conserve him perfectly so after a year they can pull him out of it and claim he just had a heart attack and died in front of them.

About Lion:

Well, I'll say Lion was meant to be a male even though the manga only prefers to give hints and not state it. Or maybe they at least spared her from knowing this little detail and Lion is ambiguous because she had suspicions but refused to ask for confirmations.

About Sayo's attachment for Battler:

Well, let's say that yes, the Battler she loved was the Battler she knew, not the Battler of 1986. Not that it made much difference because, at least in the forgeries, it's stated that the only change Battler apparently underwent is that he got taller so he's the same person she loved only bigger.

But she must have loved him quite a lot as, in the end, it's in him she put all her hopes to be saved.

Probably she loved George but didn't felt the same chemistry she felt with him. Or maybe George's relation ended up being tainted too soon by many dark feelings and fears so it was a love she couldn't... apprecciate fully (first she was afraid to use him as a replacement, then once she knew the truth... well... she felt even worse).

With Battler instead she had a long period of "untainted" love... until he didn't came back and she started fearing he didn't care about her and feeling worse and worse.

Another important truth is that we know that during youth a person tends to change a lot so that 12 years old Battler might have been very different from 18 years old Battler (and add to this he underwent some radical changes in his life) and would probably be different from 25 years old Battler (adults instead unless something happen doesn't change that much in 6 years) but Sayo, being young herself and probably not realizing she had changed as well, might have overlooked this detail.

But well, as said before the detail remains unimportant as apparently Battler didn't change.

Pocuma · 2014-05-08, 17:37

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Originally Posted by jjblue1

Not that it made much difference because, at least in the forgeries, it's stated that the only change Battler apparently underwent is that he got taller so he's the same person she loved only bigger.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1

the detail remains unimportant as apparently Battler didn't change.

My problem was that she had no way of actually knowing that. And I slightly doubt that he was exactly the same as six years ago. I remember that they mentioned in one of Sayo’s games how Battler was the same but bigger… but it’s understandable for Battler to be the-same-but-bigger in Sayo’s stories since it’s the only Battler she know, she wouldn’t know any other kind of Battler to write. Although Battler being written in a similar way in ep3-4 seem to indicate that he probably hadn’t changed much at least (as far as Toya knew/remembered at least). But as I said, she could not have know that until she actually met him. So him being at the same level as the others… well I guess it could have been something as simple as her betting on the miracle that he actually was the exact same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjblue1

But she must have loved him quite a lot as, in the end, it's in him she put all her hopes to be saved.

I wonder… not to say that she didn’t love Battler, she obviously did, but isn’t it possible that this was a case of an unconscious regression?
She wanted to be understood, and used a murder-mystery to accomplice this goal because it was something she was familiar with. As a child she used to read mysteries, and Battler was her companion in reading/solving these mysteries. Battler was also the kind of person to show sympathy even for the culprits and care for the heart (Speaking of caring about the heart, does anyone have an idea of what relation Will could have to Battler?).
Sayo basically betted on that Battler would be able to solve her mystery and show her the same sympathy/understanding he showed for the mysteries back when they where young. She’s trying to go back to a time when things was simpler, a time before her life went completely to hell. Sure it wasn’t perfect, but it was far easier than what was to come.
Of course above is just an idea I had… I might be completely off track, but it’s something that I haven’t seen anyone talk about so I thought I’d throw it out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjblue1

With Battler instead she had a long period of "untainted" love... until he didn't came back and she started fearing he didn't care about her and feeling worse and worse.

This reminds me… How long was she in love with Battler before he left? And when did she fall in love with George and Jessica?

Also… I don’t want to jump to conclusions, so what exactly do you mean with “untainted”?

GoldenLand · 2014-05-08, 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocuma

Secondly I have a small question: Was it actually said that Yasu originally was a male but changed to a female? Outright said I mean, or was it implied to be the case but not actually stated?

It's as Haguruma says, there's nothing outright saying it.

There are some things which may imply it, one of which you might have already seen at the Umineko wiki, which is Lion's answer (written by Ryukishi) to a q&a.

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“Lion: I like most subjects, but probably the one I like least is English. It seems my pronunciation is too native - my classmates laughed at me, which was a little uncomfortable. I’m also skilled at cooking. Gender equality, after all. I think that regardless of gender, one should be able to stand in the kitchen.”

Other things which may imply a male Lion are the height difference between Lion and Beatrice when they meet in ep 8's manga. There is also some of the stuff that we're shown in Yasu's thoughts about Kanon, ("For Kanon, who was this lump of all the ugliness inside of me, For him who was the opportunity for a life as a boy") but that is slightly more questionable now that we know Kanon was being acted out prior to the epitaph being solved. Though it is strange the way that Yasu jumped from worries about her female physical development to creating a persona who could live as male, thinking that could solve it somehow.

haguruma · 2014-05-09, 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Thank you so much for the translation! Though the chap dealing with Tohya being found by Ikuko took place just before our confession... Or are you meaning another one?

No, no, I meant exactly that one. Though I do wonder how they are going to follow that up in the next chapter, now that Confession is finished. Or if they are just going to go to the scene with Ange in the Golden Land waking up (like what happened right after the fainting scene in the VN).
But I totally overlooked those scans last time I checked the blog. Damn, I sure hope the next tankobon arrives fast. Still nothing announced, so I fear it's gonna take till August or something (even though EP7 came out of nowhere as well)...

I do wonder though. Ikuko finding the message bottle is a little bit more of an explanation of why she got into the Rokkenjima-fandom so hard, instead of just, "uhm...searching for inspiration I guess."
On this page she says: "Here, look at this. A few days ago, I picked this up at the ocean where I also found you and I though we could read it together. But instead of a forgery, it's more akin to the message bottle from 'And Then There Were None'."

And then there is this page here where Tohya has a short memoryflash of (apparently) Sayo handing him a stack of paper, kind of implying that at least something like that took place.

Btw. can we take boobs as a hint that Ikuko is not Sayo? If we wanted to imply that she wanted to fulfill Battler's fantasy she should have been blond, if not then there's not really any need for fake breasts...is there?

Quote:

I wonder if Sayo feels Kumasawa, Genji and Nanjo are so nice to her just because that's the top of kindness she had experienced.

Nah, the manga actually does portray them as quite nice. They help her out, Nanjo gives her candy, Kumasawa is quite motherly and Genji...well "a servant has to cast his heart in iron" says a lot about what kinda father figure he was

Quote:

Though it's interesting... in this perspective Sayo seems much closer to Clair and Gaap than to Shannon...

Well, she still regards Yasuda Sayo=Shannon to be her real identity. She quite clearly admits that Kanon, the witch and everything is made up. That's why the revelation that she is Ushiromiya Lion is that much more devastating to her, because even Yasuda Sayo was a lie and Ushiromiya Lion never even existed...so she is quite literally a person that never existed.

Well, it's good the dream of marrying and having children was also her own. It sort of implies George wasn't forcing his dream on her but they were sharing the same dream... and probably before discovering the truth this felt like one of George's good points... but afterward George's words were likely only a painful reminder of what she couldn't have.

Quote:

Just wondering... when she talks about a promise... do we see them over the balcony? In Ep 5 we see Battler remembering making a promise there (a scene original for the manga and never showed in Ep 7) and there is also where Beato met Battler in Ep 4 so it's a nice touch.

In the EP8 manga it's the rose garden and in the EP7 manga it's more specifically the arbor. I think the EP5 setting was done more for emphasis of importance than for actual setting, but it still makes a nice game out of the power ballance, because Beato is actually demanding the promise from Battler when he is standing where he made it.

Quote:

Also it sort of feel forced. As she doesn't know yet she's Lion she needs Genji and Kumasawa's help to trick Natsuhi which could cause them troubles. It feels weird she felt like asking it. But maybe things went much smoother and slower than I think and what started with just a short prank became a habit.

Well, the manga makes quite a big thing out of the decision (which I like more than the VN's "and then I needed a little brother"):

Spoiler for Confession (1) p.17-24:

She is obviously very much not only tomboyish, but practically a boy (except for her facial features maybe). It is also implied she read up alot about sexual development and will probably have noticed that something is wrong with her, she didn't yet think she IS a boy but considered it as "the complete opposite of Shannon" which made it possible for her to escape from the pain.
She also mentions that in the beginning she saw Kanon as a way to slowly let Shannon fade out of existence. So she actually considered becoming Kanon, if not certain events (coughGeorgecough) would have happened.

Quote:

I sort of feel like banging my head on the screen at how Kinzo thinks to redeem himself. But well, considering he had been a horrible father maybe he had no idea how to act.

It's also still quite telling how he says that there are "no regrets left in his life now"...like he was a perfectly okay human being otherwise.

Quote:

And the master deeply regretted all this so he did what? Gave her the gold he stole in place of giving it to the children he felt nothing for when he died? Such a kind act. It really took Kinzo lot of efforts...

Well, to give him credit. The idea of introducing Lion as the child of Natsuhi was already part of his making up for his mistakes according to Kumasawa, so he might have immediately seen his mistake and it was really a moment of complete black-out because he missed Bice THAT much.
Still, yeah, Kinzo was an asshole and I think Kumasawa is more trying to calm Sayo down, though in a completely wrong way.

Quote:

And how do they know about Natsuhi pushing the servant? Natsuhi only confessed it on the grave of the husband of said servant.

That's why I translated it as "and made the servant holding you go off a cliff by..."
The original Japanese 夏妃はあなたを抱いていた使用人ごと崖から・・・ doesn't translate well, since it would become something like "Natsuhi (verb missing) you and the servant holding you from a cliff..." by Japanese working different than English (and most European languages)

They know that Natsuhi was with the servant that went off the cliff and that she called Genji, knowing what had happened. Nanjo also said that she was clearly suffering under severe neurotic behaviour at the time...but what actually happened is yet another catbox.
Even Natsuhi was probably too mentally unstable at the point to know whether she was actually holding the servant, pushing her, or maybe even just standing there staring (like a certain servant did a lot)...

Quote:

I can understand Nanjo patching her up in a rush, but shouldn't they have carried her to a specialist afterward?

Well, the specialist would have probably taken her away from them and conducted an investgation on who that child was...especially with such an incident.
Also, I think that it also shows that the three wanted to talk about these events, being able to share them is cathartic for them (even though it is traumatic for Sayo). They had all this good will of what would become of the child and how they would make everything better...yet they totally messed up.
I can see them actually WANTING good.

Quote:

Was the work they did so bad she can't even make love or she's jumping to conclusions?

Well, she talks of a 恋をすることも出来ない体, literally a body that cannot make love (though it is ambiguous whether it means physical sex or not), and Beatrice mentions alot how "love is measured in two bodies piled atop of each other". Sayo also mentions how everything would have come out if she had spent the night with George...so it is quite likely that she is really unable to have sex at all...that basically Nanjo only formed it as to look female, but it doesn't really work much, which would again hint towards a male child (missing the whole internal equipment that allows vaginal penetration and such).

Quote:

But she must have loved him quite a lot as, in the end, it's in him she put all her hopes to be saved.

Probably she loved George but didn't felt the same chemistry she felt with him.

I think I'd agree with Pocuma, that she chose Battler to challenge her mystery because that is what she was building as a fail-safe to stop her. She wanted to be with George and Jessica as Shannon and Kanon respectively, which was possible in the Golden Land, but Battler gave her a chance, to be understood.
Pocuma also said it, Battler proved that he was interested in the heart of the story, that he could sympathize with the culprit and by doing so find out what the whole scope of events was.

Quote:

But well, as said before the detail remains unimportant as apparently Battler didn't change.

Well, the fact that the island exploded implies that he did change. He didn't remember, he wasn't the charming prince on a white horse, he wasn't the great detective. I think when looking at EP1 and 2 Battler there is also a lot of spite towards him that comes through in CotGW as well.
He is incompetent, he doesn't find the culprit, he does fail, he doesn't remember...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocuma

This reminds me… How long was she in love with Battler before he left? And when did she fall in love with George and Jessica?

Well, let's say Sayo probably joined the household around 1974 to '76. She had around 5 years to develop her friendship with Battler. Reading detective novels maybe started around 9 for them, so '76 for Sayo or '77 for Battler. The manga depicts her actually falling in love only in '80 when he made his promise of returning the next year, what he never did.
Then she is depicted actively waiting till '83, which is also be the year of the letters. '83 (when she is 16) is also the year she apparently actively starts wondering about her sexual development. So she started appearing as Kanon after the family conference in '83. It is also after this that she started opening up as Shannon (by pushing all her hatred into Kanon), the year she was noticed by Kinzo, she started playing with Jessica, started the Marriage Sorciere and it was only after that that she began dating George apparently.

It was not a family conference when she was first honestly approached by George, so it could have been around spring '84.
She then solved the epitaph on November 29th 1984 and learned everything. Only after that did Jessica honestly try to get with Kanon, so the school festival was probably the first half of 1986.

So, she's been with George for 2 years and had Jessica hanging on her heels for maybe around a year.

jjblue1 · 2014-05-09, 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocuma

My problem was that she had no way of actually knowing that. And I slightly doubt that he was exactly the same as six years ago. I remember that they mentioned in one of Sayo’s games how Battler was the same but bigger… but it’s understandable for Battler to be the-same-but-bigger in Sayo’s stories since it’s the only Battler she know, she wouldn’t know any other kind of Battler to write. Although Battler being written in a similar way in ep3-4 seem to indicate that he probably hadn’t changed much at least (as far as Toya knew/remembered at least). But as I said, she could not have know that until she actually met him. So him being at the same level as the others… well I guess it could have been something as simple as her betting on the miracle that he actually was the exact same.

Nope, she had no way of being sure if he was still like she remembered him or not. There's to say that too played in her roulette. She thinks her Battler (the Battler she remembers and love) would be able to solve her mystery and save her. In Ep 4 she basically blamed the Battler who doesn't remember of being a fake. Even though she knew he was the original, she sort of rejected him by making an excuse.

Quote:

"No. There is no way that you are my opponent Ushiromiya Battler. With this as proof."
"Proof, you say?!"
"You do not know of that sin six years ago."

Quote:

"That is enough. ......I was slightly aware from the beginning that you might not be Ushiromiya Battler. ......So, I had to question you. I had to ask about something the real Battler would have known. ............What a shame. I even bet on the one in a quadrillion chance of a miracle, that you might really be Ushiromiya Battler. However, it looks like you're a different person with the same first and last names after all."

In a way her hope that Battler had remained the same might look childish or foolish but she believed she loved that Battler. If he had changed it would have been for her the same as he had died as the Battler she loved wouldn't exist anymore.

In a way she however believed she had confirmations of him being close to the self she remembered. She pays quite a lot of attention to when Kyrie and Rudolf talk about him.

If you ask me I believe Kyrie and Rudolf's info weren't that reliable. They present Battler as popular with ladies, which tends to make us think he had a Rudolf-like attitude (and makes Sayo fears he was only playing with her) but we know that insitead Battler is single and prefers to have friends. When the cousins read the letters they claim Battler says he's having a blast and living his life to his fullest... but we know after 6 years Battler is still scrambled on the insides for what happened with his mother.

So I think that probably when Battler went on Rokkenjima or when he related with Rudolf, Kyrie and the cousins, he too showed more a persona than his true self. Maybe his true self was more like the Battler of Ep 6 (let's also consider in 6 years Battler lost 3 of his relatives one after the other)... but he presented himself like the cheerful Battler everyone knew.

But well, I guess this part didn't matter much for Sayo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocuma

I wonder… not to say that she didn’t love Battler, she obviously did, but isn’t it possible that this was a case of an unconscious regression?
She wanted to be understood, and used a murder-mystery to accomplice this goal because it was something she was familiar with. As a child she used to read mysteries, and Battler was her companion in reading/solving these mysteries. Battler was also the kind of person to show sympathy even for the culprits and care for the heart (Speaking of caring about the heart, does anyone have an idea of what relation Will could have to Battler?).
Sayo basically betted on that Battler would be able to solve her mystery and show her the same sympathy/understanding he showed for the mysteries back when they where young. She’s trying to go back to a time when things was simpler, a time before her life went completely to hell. Sure it wasn’t perfect, but it was far easier than what was to come.
Of course above is just an idea I had… I might be completely off track, but it’s something that I haven’t seen anyone talk about so I thought I’d throw it out there.

More than regression I'll say for a part of her time sort of stopped. The young Sayo who loved the young Battler and hoped they'll live happily ever after never got to grow and move over her love for him. Her feelings were simply pushed aside so as not to deal with the pain (the blossom of love moved from Shannon to Beatrice) but never died or were cut or dealt with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocuma

This reminds me… How long was she in love with Battler before he left? And when did she fall in love with George and Jessica?

The VN/manga seem to toss in the idea it started in 1980 but likely it was a gradual building up as in 1980 Sayo was waiting for Battler and we know they exchanged books already more than once. In 1980 she was probably aware that to her Battler was special, believed to love him and wanted to be loved back.

She began aware of George only in 1984 (though George had been pursing her for a long time) but in 1984 she also solves the epitaph so things turn sour pretty soon.

Kanon 'had birth' in 1983 but Kanon seems to become aware of Jessica's existence only after going to the festival with her which took place after Shannon went to Okinawa with George so very likely it's a pretty recent thing. At best 1985 if not 1986.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocuma

Also… I don’t want to jump to conclusions, so what exactly do you mean with “untainted”?

When Sayo begins dating George she feels regret because she fears she's using him as a replacement. It gets even worse when she learns the truth about herself.

With Battler she didn't have that sort of thoughts. He wasn't a replacement, she could feel whatever she felt for him without bad feelings attached. Maybe more than untainted is untroubled... but untainted to me gets better the idea of how her lovestory with Battler felt for her compared to the one she had with George.

I'm not too sure how to explain it better...

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

No, no, I meant exactly that one. Though I do wonder how they are going to follow that up in the next chapter, now that Confession is finished. Or if they are just going to go to the scene with Ange in the Golden Land waking up (like what happened right after the fainting scene in the VN).
But I totally overlooked those scans last time I checked the blog. Damn, I sure hope the next tankobon arrives fast. Still nothing announced, so I fear it's gonna take till August or something (even though EP7 came out of nowhere as well)...

Well, I found odd how we had the new volume of Ep 7 but not the one of Ep 8. Maybe they want to add extra material for that one or it's supposed to contain some heavy editing and this slowed down its release? Because there surely was enough material for a volume.

But it'll be interesting if, before showing Ange waking up, we were shown some more Tohya scenes as it's pretty obvious he's a male and not Ange and therefore people can't be tricked like in the VN thinking he's Ange... and since he claimed to be 18 they can't even think he's Sayo whose ages are either 16 or 19.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

I do wonder though. Ikuko finding the message bottle is a little bit more of an explanation of why she got into the Rokkenjima-fandom so hard, instead of just, "uhm...searching for inspiration I guess."
On this page she says: "Here, look at this. A few days ago, I picked this up at the ocean where I also found you and I though we could read it together. But instead of a forgery, it's more akin to the message bottle from 'And Then There Were None'."

Honestly I find Ikuko's expression scary as she watches the Pc... she... reminds me of Erika. Maybe she ended up inspiring her.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

And then there is this page here where Tohya has a short memoryflash of (apparently) Sayo handing him a stack of paper, kind of implying that at least something like that took place.

I thought they were books and Battler/Tohya was remembering when they were exchanging them...

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

Btw. can we take boobs as a hint that Ikuko is not Sayo? If we wanted to imply that she wanted to fulfill Battler's fantasy she should have been blond, if not then there's not really any need for fake breasts...is there?

Well, I think Sayo's wish for breasts wasn't just caused by Battler but by how she wanted to look like a normal woman.
But technically the fact she has 'confession', if confession included really what those chapters showed and it wasn't merely a... last trick to make us think something and then reveal us something else... this can explain from where all the info about Sayo's life that Tohya couldn't have known came from.
One of the reasons for which Ikuko needed to be Sayo was it was hard to picture how Tohya got all those info that are in Ep 7 (but also in other episodes) without someone basically revealing them to him. If he has Sayo's confession he could have merely fished them out from there.
Honestly I find it a cheap trick to justify it but it's a trick that work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

Nah, the manga actually does portray them as quite nice. They help her out, Nanjo gives her candy, Kumasawa is quite motherly and Genji...well "a servant has to cast his heart in iron" says a lot about what kinda father figure he was

I guess I explained myself poorly. I don't mean to say they were cold to her, just that to her those acts of kindness felt much more important than they would had she had a normal family. She ends up considering them her parents but were they like real parents or it's just she had no better?

(on a sidenote, considering that in Umineko there are also horrible parents and that Kinzo was one of them, it's more than likely that Kumasawa and Co fit the role much more nicely than some other adults in the story... -_-;;; )

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, she still regards Yasuda Sayo=Shannon to be her real identity. She quite clearly admits that Kanon, the witch and everything is made up. That's why the revelation that she is Ushiromiya Lion is that much more devastating to her, because even Yasuda Sayo was a lie and Ushiromiya Lion never even existed...so she is quite literally a person that never existed.

Well, it probably is. As much as the fandom try to set Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice on the same level Shannon is probably the most close to her own soul as the other two are only made of parts she discharged and completed with random ideas she had for them. Kanon is more like a mask she created, a role, while Shannon for a long while was how she presented herself to the world, the filter she used to interact with it, modeled over her abilities and problems. It's not enterely her but, for a long while, it must have been.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

In the EP8 manga it's the rose garden and in the EP7 manga it's more specifically the arbor. I think the EP5 setting was done more for emphasis of importance than for actual setting, but it still makes a nice game out of the power ballance, because Beato is actually demanding the promise from Battler when he is standing where he made it.

*sigh* I wish they would pick up a setting. The so called promise is a rather important thing for Sayo but in the VN is pretty vague (Battler actually never say I promise although he sounds pretty assuring when he claims he'll be back) and I thought it was nice in Ep 5 they confirmed there was a promise but then that scene seemed to be made up as it's never showed in Ep 7...

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, the manga makes quite a big thing out of the decision (which I like more than the VN's "and then I needed a little brother"):

Spoiler for Confession (1) p.17-24:

Thank you so much for the pics! You've no idea how much I want to see those chapters!

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

She is obviously very much not only tomboyish, but practically a boy (except for her facial features maybe). It is also implied she read up alot about sexual development and will probably have noticed that something is wrong with her, she didn't yet think she IS a boy but considered it as "the complete opposite of Shannon" which made it possible for her to escape from the pain.
She also mentions that in the beginning she saw Kanon as a way to slowly let Shannon fade out of existence. So she actually considered becoming Kanon, if not certain events (coughGeorgecough) would have happened.

My feelings are she just wanted to shut herself out of social contacts. Kanon is designed to be asocial and bitter. Becoming Kanon would mean breaking all her ties and not building others. Kanon tries to be firm into rejecting Jessica... which means she was probably not planning to look out for a happy life with Kanon, just for a life in which she could avoid dealing with some unpleasant parts of life (Sayo isn't good at social interaction. We see she claims she has no friends, discounting classmates and Jessica, not just the other servants. She also felt horrible pain from how her relation with Battler failed so maybe she just wanted to be left alone. Probably she also thought that Kanon wouldn't be bullied and that in return could answer back).

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

It's also still quite telling how he says that there are "no regrets left in his life now"...like he was a perfectly okay human being otherwise.

Honestly, I've hard time liking Kinzo. I get maybe he wasn't purely evil and that he had his good moments but he was selfish and egocentric as hell and had no idea what it mean to take care of another human being. I'm not even sure I approve how he let Genji become his servant instead than helping him to rebuild his own life as an equal... but maybe Genji was so broken by what he went thought that was the best for him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, to give him credit. The idea of introducing Lion as the child of Natsuhi was already part of his making up for his mistakes according to Kumasawa, so he might have immediately seen his mistake and it was really a moment of complete black-out because he missed Bice THAT much.
Still, yeah, Kinzo was an asshole and I think Kumasawa is more trying to calm Sayo down, though in a completely wrong way.

Honestly I don't even like the idea of introducing Lion like that. He's the father but pushes that responsibility on Krauss and Natsuhi. He doesn't even tell them the truth so the siblings see Lion as an orphan who replaced them instead than their brother. Maybe this helps not making him look like a bastard in the eyes of the world, but in the eyes of his family he was likely worse than that, he wasn't even related to them (okay, they could have had suspicions but still he didn't even had the guts to tell them the truth).

Honestly I consider Kinzo the main responsible for his tragedy due to how he handled his family.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

That's why I translated it as "and made the servant holding you go off a cliff by..."
The original Japanese 夏妃はあなたを抱いていた使用人ごと崖から・・・ doesn't translate well, since it would become something like "Natsuhi (verb missing) you and the servant holding you from a cliff..." by Japanese working different than English (and most European languages)

They know that Natsuhi was with the servant that went off the cliff and that she called Genji, knowing what had happened. Nanjo also said that she was clearly suffering under severe neurotic behaviour at the time...but what actually happened is yet another catbox.
Even Natsuhi was probably too mentally unstable at the point to know whether she was actually holding the servant, pushing her, or maybe even just standing there staring (like a certain servant did a lot)...

Uh? In Ep 5 is said she pretended nothing happened and that she just had let the baby in the care of the servant while she was resting alone. Then, when Kinzo searched for the baby they realized the servant had disappeared and then they discovered the broken fence.

The only one to whom Natsuhi confessed the truth was the servant's husband after he died. Genji could have overheard her but as this happened, according to Natsuhi, not so many years ago, he shouldn't have known by the time he hid the baby from Kinzo... and maybe not even by the time Sayo came on Rokkenjima.

Does the manga give different info?

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, the specialist would have probably taken her away from them and conducted an investgation on who that child was...especially with such an incident.
Also, I think that it also shows that the three wanted to talk about these events, being able to share them is cathartic for them (even though it is traumatic for Sayo). They had all this good will of what would become of the child and how they would make everything better...yet they totally messed up.
I can see them actually WANTING good.

Well, the specialist could be bribed. Or tricked into believing that baby was... I don't know... Genji's illegittimate son whom he didn't want to recognize but that he wanted to help. Or just a poor orphan for which they felt sympathy/pity/whatever. They don't really have to give him more details than the one they gave to the Fukuin director.

Yes, I think they wanted good but they did it in such a clumsy way they remind me of the old saying 'with friends like those who needs enemies?'

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, she talks of a 恋をすることも出来ない体, literally a body that cannot make love (though it is ambiguous whether it means physical sex or not), and Beatrice mentions alot how "love is measured in two bodies piled atop of each other". Sayo also mentions how everything would have come out if she had spent the night with George...so it is quite likely that she is really unable to have sex at all...that basically Nanjo only formed it as to look female, but it doesn't really work much, which would again hint towards a male child (missing the whole internal equipment that allows vaginal penetration and such).

Which would have been also a good reason to get her to a specialist and that makes little point of having her sex switched as she wouldn't have been able to have a decently normal life as a woman... actually, since she can't even develop the look of one she's even more troubled by it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, the fact that the island exploded implies that he did change. He didn't remember, he wasn't the charming prince on a white horse, he wasn't the great detective. I think when looking at EP1 and 2 Battler there is also a lot of spite towards him that comes through in CotGW as well.
He is incompetent, he doesn't find the culprit, he does fail, he doesn't remember...

Did he really? Was child Battler a great detective? Would he have solved the epitaph? Sayo's plan is sadly very flawed. Battler can't solve the epitaph if he misses the detail Kinzo viewed Taiwan as his home and, should a real murder take place in front of him, he likely wouldn't have the same reaction of him reading of a mystery book.
Sayo is angry at him and pessimist over her chances for him to stop her. She wants him to do so but doesn't let herself believe he'll just jump off the boat, run to her, hug her and tell her 'I'm so sorry I took 6 years to be back but now I'm here to take you away'. Not that I believe this could have happened, of course, but one of the main requisites for her to spin her mystery tales is that he won't solve them so Battler can't solve them in her tales.
In Prime though it's possible Battler remembered, only he wasn't fast enough.
In Ep 5, 6, 7 & 8 it's implied Battler did so, but he did so too late. Maybe it's possible he even solved the epitaph but the siblings were simply faster than him and by the time he got there everything had already happened... though again, he still have the problem he didn't know Kinzo was from Taiwan... unless Genji gave him a hint as well, hoping this would stop Sayo but he too acted too late.

We also know that Battler remembered. Some things he remembered too late apparently, but some others, like liking Sayo he remembered early enough but let the subject drop merely because he thought he was too late as Sayo was apparently happy with George.

GuestSpeaker · 2014-05-10, 07:20

I think I would have made this forum proud yesterday.

My friend fell asleep while I was over at his, so I left to go home. His door only has a deadbolt, so if you don't shut it the door swings open. Being in an apartment I didn't want to leave it open, but I didn't know where he kept the key.

So I devised a trick to shut it from the outside (I know, Beatrice would be ashamed). BUT when he asked how I did it, I told him it was magic and I turned into golden mist and passed through the keyhole. He was very confused.

GoldenLand · 2014-05-10, 09:03

*applause* You are now officially a witch, GuestSpeaker.

Of course, we only have your word for it that the trick was played from outside. Actually, you could have swapped places with another person who came to rescue you and set the bolt from inside! They could then have hidden in the apartment, perhaps in the wardrobe!

GuestSpeaker · 2014-05-10, 09:57

Oh I hope not, he actually keeps kitchen knives in there for some reason (he even cut himself on one last week). If they weren't careful they could die in there, and then cease to exist!

jjblue1 · 2014-05-10, 19:42

Umineko Ep 7 spoilers part 1 and part 2.
I can't read the text but it seems in Ep 2 and 3 we had multiple culprits and not just Sayo...

IceBorg · 2014-05-10, 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Umineko Ep 7 spoilers part 1 and part 2.
I can't read the text but it seems in Ep 2 and 3 we had multiple culprits and not just Sayo...

It's not just EP2 and 3. If you look really well you can also see that Genji is also shooting people in the first twilight of EP4. Also I think that he is also the one shooting George in that episode because of the hand you see shooting that gun.....that's not Sayo's I think.

Speaking of that, EP4 is the one I'm really interested now......from what I can see from the pages it looks like we have a EP5 situation where everyone was in a plan to trick one person but then real murders happen. In this case the target was Battler. Also I might be wrong but there's a page that shows all the murders......I wonder if the way the panels are layed out is giving the order of the murder? Does that mean Kyrie died first and Genji was last(before Sayo's suicide of course)? I don't remember EP4 that well so I don't know if that conflicts against somthing....

theacefrehley · 2014-05-11, 08:08

These pages make me think that EP3 was a bit like EP Tea Party, but with Eva+Hideyoshi instead of Rudolf+Kyrie

In those pages it says
EP2: Rosa, Nanjo and Servants were bribed
Shannon Kills George and Gohda
Genji Kill the two of them (kumasawa and nanjo)

EP3
Eva killed the two of them (krauss and natsuhi)
Eva and Hideyoshi were bribed
Hideyoshi is suspected
At the mansion, Rudolf and Kyrie are killed
But Kyrie doesn't die right away
And kills Hideyoshi
Eva kills Rosa
and strangles Maria

Obviously it's just a in-universe written story, so (almost) anything goes
I don't think Eva is a serial killer

2014-05-08, 00:41	Link #34443
haguruma Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Germany Age: 39	And I finally got my hands on an affordable copy of the Joker containing Confession(1)...though now I hope the next Tankobon comes soon, since it will probably end right before the beginning of CotGW (and yes that chapter deals with Tohya being found by Ikuko, as will be indicated by the intrductory paragraph). Spoiler for Confession of the Golden Witch (1): The stage is the world after the Rokkenjima incident. The story of an individual who lost all memories except being aged eighteen. This person, having been given the name Tohya by Ikuko, who had rescued said Tohya's life, shows talent at being a mystery author while living with Ikuko. Yet the person named Tohya still remained unable to remember anything beyond their own age. On one certain day, Ikuko decided to show Tohya a forgery of the Rokkenjima incident, which she had found on the beach. But while still telling it, the person names Tohya remembers the faces of the Ushiromiya household and looses consciousness. The content of the message bottle Ikuko found is... p.1 Confession of the Golden Witch Confession of the Golden Witch (1) If I have but one wish, let this message bottle never be touched by anybody's eyes. If you, by any chance, should read this, please deal me my just punishment. p.2 This island is cursed An island where countless souls and corpses went without salvation and where sins cross and combine Rokkenjima The island of the witch p.3 And fitting to that witch's name My life had as well been cursed p.4 I was raised in an orphanage And since I was a small child I had worked as a servant in the house of Ushiromiya There was a great number of fellow servants who came with me from the orphanage, but I was exceptionally young I was often bullied because of that There was nothing to be done The age-gap between them and me was far too great I had no chance of becoming friends with them and I honestly didn't even want to That is why p.5 I made an effort of associating with illusionary friends The Witch Beatrice: blond hair, moves things around on a whim, a red dress as if stained by blood: Beato's friend The Witch Beatrice: A high, white witch; get's burned when she touches spiderwebs If I turned my thoughts towards them they would immediately appear next to me They would make a loud spectacle around me At times they would get me into problems, but they would also console me They were irreplacable friends So even in lonely nights I wouldn't feel scared or alone p.6 Sayo: … Berune, I think with this I can finally make you take work seriously... I took one key off my chain and threw that key into Berune's locker later I took the key-boundle she left lying around and replaced it with mine Berune: What is this Only the masterkey is gone! ...maybe I overdid it a little? Gaap: What are you talking about? That was me taking over your body for the sake of teaching Berune to respect higher powers! Clair: After that she will learn to respect us! Yes, it's Berune's fault for not being dilligent enough Because of er behaviour, the witch decided to teach her a little lesson ...that's all Kumasawa: My, my, are you still up at this time? p.7 Kumasawa: Tomorrow is an early day, you have to get some sleep Sayo: Kumasawa Uh...I...Kumasawa Thank you...for helping me... You know... the master's... vase... Kumasawa: ...aah! No, no, I told you it was a kitty-cat that did it Right? p.8 Kumasawa, who has served the house a long time, Sir Genji, who is the head of us servants, and the master's friend Dr. Nanjo who occasionally comes to visit for some reason I can't see they treat me so well There were days when I received a good scolding But they were always there for me Especially Sir Genji, who always speaks so strictly about a servant having to cast his heart in iron, and Kumasawa, who so often meddles in other people's affairs p.9 were like parents to someone like me without a single relative in the world Sayo: Are you listening? I have decided upon my dream! I want a family p.10 Sayo: I want to marry the boy I love one day and then get children all to create a real family Clair: My, my... That is a really cute, little dream, fit for a human Gaap: As a witch I can't really see it p.11 And soon after, I fell in love Battler: Oh, how've you been? Unlike that brute Jessica, you really get cuter everytime I meet you, Shannon! Have you read any new detective novels? This is one that I found especially entertaining! Sayo: Tha...thank you very much I recently read all of Agatha Christie so.... The son of one of the branch-families of the Ushiromiya's He always made a good impression He was a little rough on the edges but never fake Believe me, that trick will surprise you For somebody like him to have the same hobby as me and for him to spent so much of his time on the island during the family conference with me... p.12 to me who had no other friends my age it wasn't that weird to loose my head over a boy like that With him around I was able to forget the hardships of my everyday life so I started daydreaming about spending more time at his side... and I began to think that there was also a little favour directed at me as well Battler: What? What I'm into? It might surprise you, but I'm not into the homely type, I like something rougher Even someone like Jessica, somebody to bash my heads in with would be nice... And it would be awesome if she was blond and had big boobies! Sayo: Blond and big boobies.... Battler's thoughts: Dad's porn... p.13 Battler … if you ever... If you ever do quit your position as a servant Then you can come to my place If that day comes... I will come for you on a white steed! p.14 Does that mean...that you'll become my prince on a white horse? That you will come and carry me off this island? What would it be wonderful to be able to live with you I want to be your bride p.15 If I am with you, my dream will definitely come true p.16 And while I give my best to become the ideal woman you dream about I will keep on waiting for you until you come to take me away... forever... We parted with the promise to meet again one year later in the same spot Sayo: I have to be more frank, like Milady Jessica... Like this? Ba... Battler, how've ya been? No...no I can't talk like that... Magazine: Secret Tips to Boost your Boobs! Sayo: And relax and pull Make a cleavage... Uuungh I was waiting to test how much we felt for each other... p.17 But no matter how I waited, he did not return Servant: Have you heard that Sir Battler was erased from the family register... ServantB: Yeah, but with his father fooling around even while Miss Asumu was still alive...I would leave the family too Servant: Well, Sir Rudolph's problem with infidelity goes way back Wasn't Hamacchi also with him one time? Sayo: He will come back... Surely... Next year he will come back... Next year... Classmate: Ah, Yasuda Sorry, do you have a wet towel with you? Sayo: ...ah....no...sorry I... ...haven't yet...so p.19 Classmate: Oh, I see, sorry While I was waiting for his return, griefing I was starting to feel an unease about my own body as well My first period... even though everybody elese already had theirs... …? … Why won't my breasts grow, especially when he likes big-breasted girls? Why am I the only one not getting their menstruation...? Is there something wrong with my body...? p.20 Clair: Aren't you still in middle school? When it comes to the tides of the moon, some people will only experience it once they have entered high school, you know Sayo: You're right... Clair: With my magic you can immediately get giant knockers if you want They will be plump and voluptous like ripe fruits when Battler does return... But they also come with a set of problems, that a young girls heart should better go untroubled by... Sayo: You're right, I think... Clair: Yes! Just lay your fears to rest! I should do that, right? Lady Beatrice...!! p.21 I hate mirrors for showing me how I truly look because they steal my dreams from me...! uuuuuh uuuwaaaaah!! p.22 Is that me...?! That boyish looking, flat chested thing with a worn-out face Tossed away by the one she liked has no real friend or family to talk to! Just sits in her room melancholicly, talking to herself, living by deceiving herself... How shabby is that...!! Sayo: Battler... Why won't you come back to me... p.23 Sayo: Come and save me... Come and take me away from this island, from this fate... What did this promise really mean to you? Was I the only one getting my hopes up? Please...! So is there nothing left to me but living alone and miserable? p.24 I want to die right now And what if I forgot all of my past and could just live a different life...... A different... p.25 life as a boy... Kanon: My name is Kanon and I will be working here from today. I hope we can get along. From that point on I started to appear as Kanon If I could somehow find happiness living as a boy, then I could now start letting my life as Shannon fade out of existence...I thought Of course this wasn't something that I could just do suddenly So my life meant alternating between Shannon and Kanon Kumasawa and Genji played along, but just as a further extension of my game of make-belief they helped me with secret agreements and managing the shift-schedule Servant: It's really something to have a boy as a servant Shall we spent the break together? p.26 Kanon: Food tastes worse if the company is bad... Doesn't talk much is pretty cold only insults if he opens his mouth I'm sure that's what being a boy is like Yes---- He must appear as the complete opposite of Shannon I only have to keep away from people as much as possible and speak as few as possible Normally there are no more than two or three servants on duty on the island As long as I have Kumasawa and the other's help it shouldn't be discovered if I do well This strategy went better than I expected I pushed my daily discontent on Kanon and my mischievious spirit and my feeling for that boy on the witch in me So I became able to smile freely as long as I was me p.27 Sayo: ...ah.... It's hot... No...quick...I need ice! Kumasawa: Shannon, take off your socks, quick! p.28 Sayo: He will yell at me...!! Kumasawa: Master, we will have to borrow the bathroom! Kinzo: ......yes Genji: I am sorry that you had to witness this unsightly display. I will quickly prepare a new soup. Kinzo: … …Genji...you... …you didn't... …...... …....no …..it's alright Sayo: Eh? Master, what is this... p.29 Kinzo: I asked you... if you wanted to take a try at shooting as well Kumasawa: Hohohoho, isn't that a treat Shannon? Even Madam Eva and her siblings are not allowed to touch these guns Don't you want to at least give it a try? Sayo: Ye...yes... Kinzo: Hehe... p.30 Kinzo: There is a real resemblance... Can it be that now a chance for redemption has finally come... The heavens are truly fickle... Hehahaha... ….. Thinking back this was probably the most happiness I ever experienced My friendship with Milady also deepened p.31 I also very easily became friends with Miss Maria Together we expanded our world and played in it this is how we wove the fabric of 'our world' p.32 And I found a new love At first it was a way to finally forget about that boy so I felt guilty if I had maybe chosen him as a replacement But the time with him was so gentle I was so happy for someone like me being treated like a girl and more than that, his ideal of family that he told me about one day matched with mine More and more I got charmed by him I may be not gifted with big breasts but even if it takes a while I can still get children and so I set out to built my future with George...! p.33 Even though there was not supposed to be a happy future in store for me p.34 November 29th 1984 p.35 After I got a hint from Sir Genji, my passion grabbed me and I decided to challenge the epitaph I set out to solve it, being sure that a mystery fanatic like myself would be able to do so... I went about it, completely oblivious to what „solving the epitaph“ truly meant to bring about And in the end p.36 it was nothing but me prying open the Pandora's Box that was my fate p.37 Kinzo: Uuuuh... Uuuooooh Forgive me...Beatrice... Lion... Just once... Call me „father“ just once... Sayo: Fa...ther...? p.38 My true name is Ushiromiya Lion Kinzo: WAHAHAHAHAHA I have not a sliver of regret left in my life now.... Nanjo: It was a peaceful death. Meeting you in his final moments, he gained his chance for redemption in the end He must be satisfied now... My father was Ushiromiya Kinzo Genji: Please ask us anything, whatever it may be You are now the ruler of Rokkenjima And you possess the right to know all of it's secrets Sayo: You knew all the time that I was the master's child, didn't you... And also...that my mother was Beatrice... …wait! My mother was the Beatrice who had been held captive in Kuwadorian p.39 My mother was actually Kinzo's daughter and actually my elder sister Sayo: What does that mean? I don't understand... Do you wanna...say... Kumasawa: The master deeply regreted pushing all the misguided love the deceased Lady Beatrice on her And also that he made you shoulder such a gruesome fate by being born out of that That is why.......... Wait a second Wait a second SO i AM the YounGest ChilD of Ushiromiya Kinzo? Sir Krauss and the others ARE my siblings? THE CHILD OF THE CHILD HE HAD WITH HIS LOVER? So MiLADY and the others ARE my cousins YET also my NIECES and NEPHEWS marrying a blood relative of 3rd degree IS illegal The blood of Ushiromiya Kinzo runs thick in my veins p.40 IN OTHER WORDS I WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO BE BORN Nanjo: After your mother died on you, Kinzo planned on introducing you to the main house as an adopted child Wait a second Nanjo: But Natsuhi, who was suffering from a severe noirosis for not being able to give birth herself at the time My ears won't stop ringing Nanjo: Made a servant carrying you go off a cliff by... Please don't tell me any more of this Nothing good can come from this Nanjo: But still, you were excedingly lucky...! I myself thought that it was nothing less than a miracle...! p.41 Nanjo: You suffered a large laceration on your LOWER ABDOMEN AND GENITAL REGION, but like through a miracle you survived Genji: Dr. Nanjo really tried everything he could to save you Sayo's memory: Why won't I get my menstruation... Genji: We were unable to save your dear mother... and for that we wanted at least you TO LIVE Sayo's memory: A flat, boyish body... Nanjo: Even if it were A BODY THAT CANNOT MAKE CHILDREN we wanted you to LIVE and become happy p.43 Sayo: A lie... It's a lie... This has to be a lie... I am Yasuda Sayo, an orphan I am not that Lion you talk about You have...the wrong person It's not me... It can't be me... Nanjo: Lion...? Genji: No, you are Master Lion Sayo: CAN YOU PROVE THAT?!?! DO YOU HAVE PROOF THAT I AM LION?!?! Genji: .....yes p.44 Genji: On your foot is a scar left from the operation to treat your polydactly That alone is proof that within you flows the very blood of the master We were careless in our care, I suppose, and the operation left a scar Sayo: ......... That is... why.... no..... WHY DIDN'T YOU LET ME DIE BACK THEN.... p.45 Sayo: I WOULD HAVE NEVER WANTED TO LIVE IN SUCH A BODY! A body like...this that can't even make love...!! I AM NOT EVEN HUMAN...!! I'M A PIECE OF FURNITURE!! Sayo's memory: I want a family It's a lie that I can't have children It's a lie that I am a bastard Sayo: UUUUUU....aaa....aaah It's a lie that I'm related to you Sayo: UAAAAAAAAAAAH.... It's a lie that I can't become happy with the person I love Surely from the very moment I was born I was never given a chance for a happy life. And in the future lies only despair... I will try to get some actual visual examples ready as well. Especially the final part is interesting, because it is very much written and drawn from Sayo's perspective, even having the typical "evil sillouettes" of people (in this case Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa). What they are saying isn't necessarily evil...it's just incredibly selfish.

2014-05-11, 08:08	Link #34460
theacefrehley Guitar Man Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Brazil	These pages make me think that EP3 was a bit like EP Tea Party, but with Eva+Hideyoshi instead of Rudolf+Kyrie In those pages it says EP2: Rosa, Nanjo and Servants were bribed Shannon Kills George and Gohda Genji Kill the two of them (kumasawa and nanjo) EP3 Eva killed the two of them (krauss and natsuhi) Eva and Hideyoshi were bribed Hideyoshi is suspected At the mansion, Rudolf and Kyrie are killed But Kyrie doesn't die right away And kills Hideyoshi Eva kills Rosa and strangles Maria Obviously it's just a in-universe written story, so (almost) anything goes I don't think Eva is a serial killer __________________ []'s from Ace

2014-05-08, 10:16	Link #34446
GuestSpeaker Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012	Also interesting to note that the scene with the vase and the cat happened to Yasu and NOT to Beatrice II. I suppose the hint to that was A: how would Yasu know about it otherwise and B: Virilgillia was a person to Yasu, not Beatrice II. Still, that was a clever trick by Ryu. Honestly I think Genji had the right idea about sending Yasu away, but he probably should have sent her to a non-Ushiromiya orphanage and just let her grow up not knowing her crazy family origins. The gender reassignment surgery was also not a great idea, but would be very consistent with practices of the time.

2014-05-08, 10:50	Link #34447
Pocuma Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012	First of all I want to thank Haguruma for buying and taking the time to translate the confession. The new insight is very interesting and it feels like there’s a lot of information that really should have been included in the VN version. Secondly I have a small question: Was it actually said that Yasu originally was a male but changed to a female? Outright said I mean, or was it implied to be the case but not actually stated?

2014-05-10, 07:20	Link #34455
GuestSpeaker Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012	I think I would have made this forum proud yesterday. My friend fell asleep while I was over at his, so I left to go home. His door only has a deadbolt, so if you don't shut it the door swings open. Being in an apartment I didn't want to leave it open, but I didn't know where he kept the key. So I devised a trick to shut it from the outside (I know, Beatrice would be ashamed). BUT when he asked how I did it, I told him it was magic and I turned into golden mist and passed through the keyhole. He was very confused.

2014-05-10, 09:03	Link #34456
GoldenLand Eaten by goats Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Rokkenjima	applause You are now officially a witch, GuestSpeaker. Of course, we only have your word for it that the trick was played from outside. Actually, you could have swapped places with another person who came to rescue you and set the bolt from inside! They could then have hidden in the apartment, perhaps in the wardrobe!

2014-05-10, 09:57	Link #34457
GuestSpeaker Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012	Oh I hope not, he actually keeps kitchen knives in there for some reason (he even cut himself on one last week). If they weren't careful they could die in there, and then cease to exist!

2014-05-10, 19:42	Link #34458
jjblue1 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011	Umineko Ep 7 spoilers part 1 and part 2. I can't read the text but it seems in Ep 2 and 3 we had multiple culprits and not just Sayo...