(L) Bakuman

[Excelion]

A couple of weeks ago I was thinking money was going to be one of Nanamine's main pitfalls. Still looks like this is the case. Probably will be a delivery boy again when this is over.

Nanamine's tragic flaw is taking manga too seriously, which we saw with him reading Money and Intelligence as a kid, and then he reiterates it again at the end of the chapter. That's the underlying message of this arc: manga isn't to be taken as truth. Manga is for fun. Hopefully after his defeat he'll learn that manga is indeed for fun.

It feels like Eiji "won" so they could make way for Nanamine, a true villain. I don't feel like the series needed one, and we're starting to lose touch with the realism that is supposed to be inherent in this series. This arc's just a bit too much out there. On the other hand, I like how much discussion we can have about this sort of arc.

In regards to why Nanamine isn't targetting other magazines...it's all because of Ashirogi Muto. He just wants to beat them. Like others have pointed out, saturation is an issue.

I too foresee Team Fukuda coming to action against these veteran authors.

[lightbringer]

On the other hand, Nanamine makes the reader aware of an important point, namely that mangaka are in a unique position to influence people's lives and have at least some responsibility not to lead them astray. Children are more impressionable, Nanamine just took this to an extreme (and probably missed the real moral message behind Money and Intelligence, or Ashirogi Muto of old were not experienced enough to bring such a message across).

[Guido]

Do you think that the story's about to jump the shark or possibly has done so?

With the way how you presented and assessed your analysis of the current arc I do give you reason that the story is focusing more on antagonists, rather than the hurdles of Ashirogi Muto trying to catch up with their rivals and then becoming number one mangakas.

But, it's just as the story says (and pointed out by both of you), manga mustn't be taken literally by word.

It's for fun and not to be taken at face value.

[Somnus]

Although I can understand that Nanamine's methods are a plot point in relation to "Could manga be done like this?", I simply can't get past the feeling that this is a "battle against jealous rich kid" arc.

I also still stand by the opinion I raised earlier about losing the "realistic" feeling that Bakuman had established.

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by eheart

Yeah, all classes can train in any weapon, but the less combat-heavy a class is, the fewer weapons they can carry at once. Soldiers are the only class that can carry one of every weapon type.

... I hope this means I can start my Vanguard off with assault rifle training right out of the gate. I'll pick up heavy pistols later.

Eviscerator (short range ownage) + Mattock (long range/high armor damage) + Locust (mid-range general purpose) = one happy Vanguard!

How did you confuse this for the Mass Effect thread?

[Somnus]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

How did you confuse this for the Mass Effect thread?

He didn't. He's copy/pasting other people's posts in random topics. Just ignore it all.

[Xion Valkyrie]

Despite how they're trying to portray Nanamine as the 'villain', I don't actually see anything bad about how his business is set up. It's as he says, movies have directors, producers, multiple script writers, test screenings, etc, so why can't manga? Marvel/DC comics are produced somewhat like this too.

There's also nothing wrong with using money to create the system, since most new companies require investor money to get off the ground anyways.

[amasposu]

I have thought about it and it would be interesting if Ashirogi joins force with Nanamine's company. We have seen times and times again that Nizuma is on a different level and that Ashirogi will never surpass Nizuma. If Ashirogi joins Nanamine, it will be a suspenseful but dark plot twist, not unlike the ones we saw in Ohba's Death Note. If Ashirogi joins Nanamine, their chances of overtaking Nizuma's ranking is significantly higher. Not to mention, with the help of Nanamine's company, the chances of them getting an anime will also be significantly higher.

Even with all of that in mind though, I do not expect Ashirogi to join Nanamine. It seems like something that is out of their characters to do.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

Despite how they're trying to portray Nanamine as the 'villain', I don't actually see anything bad about how his business is set up. It's as he says, movies have directors, producers, multiple script writers, test screenings, etc, so why can't manga? Marvel/DC comics are produced somewhat like this too.

There's also nothing wrong with using money to create the system, since most new companies require investor money to get off the ground anyways.

Yeah, I can't help but feel he's not entirely wrong. You've got pictures telling a story - you've got manga. Who cares how it was made?

There are arguments why it can't be as good (either financially or artistically), in the long run, as doing it the normal way. But Mashiro's being too conservative, there.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

Despite how they're trying to portray Nanamine as the 'villain', I don't actually see anything bad about how his business is set up. It's as he says, movies have directors, producers, multiple script writers, test screenings, etc, so why can't manga? Marvel/DC comics are produced somewhat like this too.

There's also nothing wrong with using money to create the system, since most new companies require investor money to get off the ground anyways.

That's not the real issue here. As noted in the chapter, Nanamine's system is essentially rooted in defiance of the "editors". What an editor is is essentially a point of contact with the publication company which makes releasing a manga possible. The editor restrains an artist's vision to a concrete target audience, and ensures that a work is actually marketable. This is a system which exists for all commercial art forms with a publishing component: Even with movies, anime and video games, which are created by large groups of people, a financially representative Producer stands above the creative Director. A mangaka's relationship is more analogous to the book publishing industry where authors work one on one with an editor, because it is closer to that end in scale.

What Nanamine is essentially trying to assert here is that authors/mangaka with "ability" should be freed from the bounds of being accountable to an Editor. What Nanamine has been doing thus far is to use collaboration and market research to artificially "increase" a mangaka's ability, to a hypothetical point where Nanamine thinks he can claim that editors are no longer necessary. What Nanamine doesn't understand is that the fundamental function of an author-editor relationship is to allow an author to extend his world view from some arrogant auteuristic vision or obsession with self-expression to communication and a mindset of having consideration of the audience. The latter is what leads to genuine success in the long run. "Independent" artists exist for virtually all forms of artistic media, but the big money, big exposure, and big public success overwhelmingly comes from a successful collaboration with large companies for publication.

It is certainly possible that a more widely collaborative production process for manga is feasible. It's not necessary, however, and the fundamental premise of Nanamine's viewpoint, the irrelevancy of editors, is mistaken. As far as the method itself, at some point the added costs of a collaborative creation process and direct market research are gonna outpace the benefits of increased appeal and marketability. It's a method which can be viable in some cases, to be sure, but it is not in any manner an obsoletion of the basic mangaka-editor model or relationship.

[Excelion]

Nanamine compares himself to a film director...but he really has no constructive input at all. Basing everything around beating Muto is going to hurt him.

I thought we would have seen the continuation of the Money and Intelligence line at the end of last chapter. He obviously was taking their manga too seriously, but yeah it wasn't really brought up this chapter other than to say he's using money to buy success.

[totoum]

Yeah to me the director comparaison nanamine makes doesn't work,he's more like the head of a big production company.

That being said,I don't think he's being portrayed as really evil,he's definatly too obsessed about beating arushimuto and he can be quite harsh as the end of the chapter shows but everybody pretty much says there's nothing ethicly wrong with his system.

Really,I find him more likable than Nakai for exemple.

[FDW]

I wanna state my thoughts on this chapter, as it was very thought provoking. From I what see here, I think you missing the point and not realizing the possibility of a third option besides one side or the other "winning". What I think is going to happen from what I think I see is that Nanamine will actually succeed in getting PCP canceled, but that it will come at the cost of him nearly the bankrupting the company he runs, which in turn will lead to him being forced out of his company. However I don't think it will be all bad for Ashirogi Muto, as the arc will serve to light a new fire into their hearts, setting things up for the series climax.

[Excelion]

If PCP does get cancelled, I think it would be interesting to see Eiji make his comeback at the same time AM is trying to get serialized again, having them both start from fresh and compete at the same serialization meeting.

[amasposu]

Spoiler for 146:

Nanamine shows his true colors to Azuma. He ditches Azuma and Panty Flash Fight (already!).

[Anh_Minh]

So now he's spending all that money to make one series? Crazy.

[LeaD36]

i'm currently watching Entourage. Pretty sure he had some of that Sherpa-weed. That reminds me, i need some of that shit aswell, so wish me luck my contact has some free stuff on her.

[Tactics]

146

What Nanamine says,
Making us--reader, remember if this series is definitely fiction

His desire is to defeat Ahirogi by his own hand.
Is he try to gain popularity first, so when he announce his manga, it will have no problems ?

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

That's not the real issue here. As noted in the chapter, Nanamine's system is essentially rooted in defiance of the "editors". What an editor is is essentially a point of contact with the publication company which makes releasing a manga possible. The editor restrains an artist's vision to a concrete target audience, and ensures that a work is actually marketable. This is a system which exists for all commercial art forms with a publishing component: Even with movies, anime and video games, which are created by large groups of people, a financially representative Producer stands above the creative Director. A mangaka's relationship is more analogous to the book publishing industry where authors work one on one with an editor, because it is closer to that end in scale.

What Nanamine is essentially trying to assert here is that authors/mangaka with "ability" should be freed from the bounds of being accountable to an Editor. What Nanamine has been doing thus far is to use collaboration and market research to artificially "increase" a mangaka's ability, to a hypothetical point where Nanamine thinks he can claim that editors are no longer necessary. What Nanamine doesn't understand is that the fundamental function of an author-editor relationship is to allow an author to extend his world view from some arrogant auteuristic vision or obsession with self-expression to communication and a mindset of having consideration of the audience. The latter is what leads to genuine success in the long run. "Independent" artists exist for virtually all forms of artistic media, but the big money, big exposure, and big public success overwhelmingly comes from a successful collaboration with large companies for publication.

It is certainly possible that a more widely collaborative production process for manga is feasible. It's not necessary, however, and the fundamental premise of Nanamine's viewpoint, the irrelevancy of editors, is mistaken. As far as the method itself, at some point the added costs of a collaborative creation process and direct market research are gonna outpace the benefits of increased appeal and marketability. It's a method which can be viable in some cases, to be sure, but it is not in any manner an obsoletion of the basic mangaka-editor model or relationship.

Is the Bakuman manga taking shots at the Managka who have recently gone independent and critical of the current model?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

What Nanamine is essentially trying to assert here is that authors/mangaka with "ability" should be freed from the bounds of being accountable to an Editor. What Nanamine has been doing thus far is to use collaboration and market research to artificially "increase" a mangaka's ability, to a hypothetical point where Nanamine thinks he can claim that editors are no longer necessary. What Nanamine doesn't understand is that the fundamental function of an author-editor relationship is to allow an author to extend his world view from some arrogant auteuristic vision or obsession with self-expression to communication and a mindset of having consideration of the audience. The latter is what leads to genuine success in the long run. "Independent" artists exist for virtually all forms of artistic media, but the big money, big exposure, and big public success overwhelmingly comes from a successful collaboration with large companies for publication.

Yes and no. He's replacing editors - full time, specialized individuals - with several part-timers.

What's he's protesting, I think, isn't the need for an outside perspective. In fact, I'd say he's more mindful of it than the average author. He's protesting the amount of power concentrated in individuals with disputable qualifications and over whom the authors have no control. As Mashiro said, it's a lottery.

And he has a point. Remember how close Miura came to destroying Ashirogi Muto? Or what the editor in chief told Takahama when he wanted to change editors? "There's the door, don't let it hit you on your way out." It turned out alright in the end (especially thanks to Miura's growth, and the fact that they're both basically decent, earnest, hard-working people), but sometimes personalities just don't gel, and it's nobody's fault.

As for qualifications - when it comes to picking and critiquing series, editors will be the first to admit their own opinions aren't surefire predictors of popularity, or they wouldn't need the questionnaires. Nanamine at least tests his monitors, and I'm sure if one of them starts being wrong too often, he won't hesitate to fire him. And to generate ideas... Well, at least so far, Nanamine's idea's working.