Sword Art Online: Alicization - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[LG-MAX 2.o]

For those who are curious, there is a different between the RAW version and the Crunchyroll version: https://twitter.com/TZEENO/status/1071480682571030528

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by zeross87

because military operation are not always lawful. if you for example need a leader killed but doing so ins't exactly lawful under international law, you need soldier to do it quietly and not just fatal error in the middle of it.

Fluctulights aren't compelled to follow anything that is defined as a law only the specific law that is the taboo index. A soldier that strictly follows a specific set of laws and has no kind of constraints outside of that is exactly what a general would want.

A soldier that can break a law for personal moral reasons, like Eugeo has done, is the total opposite of that. What would prevent that soldier from defying the orders of his general at that point?

If Kikuoka's objective is to make fluctulights able to kill, that makes sense. If his objective is to make them able to defy laws and orders, that doesn't make sense anymore.

[zeross87]

i just had a horrible thought but since they are technically in their right to rape them according to the taboo index and interrupting them is considered a crime as egeo can't do it; shouldn't the girl asking egeo to save them be considered a violation of the index.
they are actually asking someone to break the taboo index by saying "save me" and they should at least be stooped by the index or fatal error like when he want to ask hubert to give him his bandage but can't because that would make him break the index. i guess fatal error is avoided because tiesse only ask eugeo for help and don't order him to help but i feel if they want to be perfectly coherent she shouldn't even be able to ask for help.

[Mangonel]

Originally Posted by zeross87

i just had a horrible thought but since they are technically in their right to rape them according to the taboo index and interrupting them is considered a crime as egeo can't do it; shouldn't the girl asking egeo to save them be considered a violation of the index.
they are actually asking someone to break the taboo index by saying "save me" and they should at least be stooped by the index or fatal error like when he want to ask hubert to give him his bandage but can't because that would make him break the index. i guess fatal error is avoided because tiesse only ask eugeo for help and don't order him to help but i feel if they want to be perfectly coherent she shouldn't even be able to ask for help.

I think its a matter of authority. When blondie orders his lackey to give him the rope he has the authority to issue to the command.

Tiesse doesn't have the authority to order Eugeo to help her.

I'll be interested to see if feasibility is also taken into account by the system for alert-freezes.

[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

If Kikuoka's objective is to make fluctulights able to kill, that makes sense. If his objective is to make them able to defy laws and orders, that doesn't make sense anymore.

Kikuoka doesn't want to simply make fluctlights that are able to break laws and kill people, that would be easy enough to accomplish in and of itself. What he wants are fluctlights that are capable of making the decision to break laws and kill on their own. The fluctlights we see(Eugeo aside) are incomplete, they are unable to willingly and knowingly break the law. Even though each of these fluctlights has their own mind, hopes, dreams and something of a will of their own, they are still acting bound to their base programming. They are not the type of A.I. soldier that Kikuoka is trying to make

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Metaneo

Kikuoka doesn't want to simply make fluctlights that are able to break laws and kill people, that would be easy enough to accomplish in and of itself. What he wants are fluctlights that are capable of making the decision to break laws and kill on their own. The fluctlights we see(Eugeo aside) are incomplete, they are unable to willingly and knowingly break the law. Even though each of these fluctlights has their own mind, hopes, dreams and something of a will of their own, they are still acting bound to their base programming. They are not the type of A.I. soldier that Kikuoka is trying to make

Fyi, you didn't really address Jan Poo's point that there's no conceivable need for having such a "feature".

[Yui Is My Wife]

...and now Kawahara Reiki has started receiving actual Death Threats Online from the west on Twitter, for the “heinous” crime of writing scenes where the victims are rescued but unharmed, and the animals responsible do NOT evade justice and are ALWAYS punished and butchered like the worthless soulless pigs that they are.

....meanwhile in the west, george rr martin CONTINUES to scribble SUCCESSFUL rape (and murder) scenes of innocent helpless children (played by ACTUAL child actors onscreen) where the garbage responsible NEVER get punished for their crimes, because they are the HEROES of his snuff-stories. And wouldn’t you know it, he CONTINUES to be WORSHIPPED AND ADORED as a god and savior of modern fantasy literature.

What is wrong with this double standard picture, God damn it all.

[Shinji103]

Sorry Yui, but in this case at least, it matters if the people praising this Martin guy (never heard of him honestly, and it sounds like thankfully so) are the same people sending Kawahara death threats. Maybe the people sending the death threats send them to Martin too, for all we know. Don’t judge the population of Japan as a whole (based on how some otaku act in certain situations), and here we shouldn’t judge the population of the west as a whole.



While I won’t send death threats and I think them to be a massive overreaction, I absolutely think this episode was trash and done in poor taste. I’m fine with rape used for story writing purposes when done right, but this wasn’t. Why did we need rape for Eugeo to be a badass in the first place? That alone makes this terrible use of rape in storywriting. (I know there wasn’t actual rape, you know what I mean) The Damsel in Distress is an overused and dumb enough ploy as it is, but objectifying and victimizing female characters with rape for male characters to grow or simply show off is just bad writing. I was more than a little disguted with this episode, and while I rarely use the voting polls at the top of these episode threads, this episode earned a 0 from me for rape in poor taste. I’ll have to settle for a 1 though.
Again, I know there there wasn’t actual rape (in the anime), but you do know what I mean. I can’t believe we left the setting and characters we love for a new setting and new characters just to watch two of them be turned into rape objects at the same time. First Asuna, then Sinon gets turned into a helpless crying girl in need of saving, now this. Disgusting.

[Yui Is My Wife]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Sorry Yui, but in this case at least, it matters if the people praising this Martin guy (never heard of him honestly, and it sounds like thankfully so)

You live in the west and don’t know him? You are *beyond* lucky.

In the FIRST episode of the hbo snuff series he scribbled, his heroes show the kind of people they are by throwing innocent children out of windows to avoid taking responsibility for being caught committing incest, and another whores out the virginity of his sister for dragon eggs to a violent black stereotype from a culture so “savage” they don’t even have the word “thank you” in their language.

All to show just how dark, cynical, edgy and therefor “intelligent and compelling” the hellhole he scribbled into existence is.

7 years on western nerd-dom and fanboys continue to shower it with praise and worship.

And mr martin’s devotees are among the LOUDEST detractors of Sword Art Online and Anime In general, snerring how “immature stories about nice-happy-people” are wastes of time compared to horror snuff starting *successful* child rapists.

george rr martin is an insult to the Epic Fantasy Genre. He is not worth one DUST on Kawahara Reiki’s boot.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Yui Is My Wife

And mr martin’s devotees are among the LOUDEST detractors of Sword Art Online and Anime In general, snerring how “immature stories about nice-happy-people” are wastes of time compared to horror snuff starting *successful* child rapists.

Sounds even more like these aren’t the people sending death threats to Kawahara.


For the record, however dark Game of Thrones is (just found out he’s the author of the novel when I looked him up), it doesn’t make this episode any less disgusting.

[Keila]

This is probably a bit late now, but think of the various 'machine learning' experiments in the real world where they try to get the 'ai' to learn/play the game (and then where they go wrong).

Here is an article as an example: https://blog.openai.com/faulty-reward-functions/

[Yui Is My Wife]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Sounds even more like these aren’t the people sending death threats to Kawahara.


For the record, however dark Game of Thrones is (just found out he’s the author of the novel when I looked him up), it doesn’t make this episode any less disgusting.

On that note: it’s not wrong to cheer when those two scumbags get butchered like the pigs that they are, is it?

Of course, this level of violence is not even REMOTELY tolerable in real life, but considering how many similar tragedies go *un* punished in our world , the cathartic rage is just oh-so therapeutic (kind of like the rush you get watching Kenshiro making bad-guys *literally*-explode in “Fist of The North Star” during the 1980s” )

[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by Haak

Fyi, you didn't really address Jan Poo's point that there's no conceivable need for having such a "feature".

Uh, yes, I did, and I'm not going to explain it anymore than I have.

And Shinji, cool it, you are overreacting quite a bit.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Metaneo

And Shinji, cool it, you are overreacting quite a bit.

Overreacting would be spamming emote signs and using caps. I gave a calm explanation of why this episode used rape in a terrible manner and in poor taste. Please don’t tell someone to “cool it” or claim they’re overreacting just because you disagree or don’t feel as strongly about it.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Yui Is My Wife

...and now Kawahara Reiki has started receiving actual Death Threats Online from the west on Twitter, for the “heinous” crime of writing scenes where the victims are rescued but unharmed

Is there a source for this?

Originally Posted by Metaneo

Uh, yes, I did, and I'm not going to explain it anymore than I have.

Congratulations, you just pissed me off.

All you did was state that Kikuoka wanted AI that could break laws set by their base programming, but at no point did you explain why Kikuoku wanted such a thing from a military standpoint. The argument seems to be that actions during war can be illegal according to international law but Jan-Poo already pointed out these AI clearly aren't compelled to follow international law, just law set by their base programming.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by Haak

Is there a source for this?



Congratulations, you just pissed me off.

All you did was state that Kikuoka wanted AI that could break laws set by their base programming, but at no point did you explain why Kikuoku wanted such a thing from a military standpoint. The argument seems to be that actions during war can be illegal according to international law but Jan-Poo already pointed out these AI clearly aren't compelled to follow international law, just law set by their base programming.

Perhaps it comes down to wanting AI that would still be able to function and carry out a mission, even when they encounter something that they weren't programmed for, and possible falls into a grey area. Even if they aren't programmed to follow many of our laws. The laws or rules of governance they are programmed with could still cause some type of contradiction or feedback loop that sends them glitching like we saw with Sleevebag number one when presented with a situation that's out of the ordinary. This was just something I was thinking about while reading through the convo, still mulling over this one myself.

[bakato]

As I understood it, Kikuoka doesn't want AIs to break laws, he wants these AI's to break the Taboo Index. The purpose of this project was to produce AI capable of replacing human soldiers. Conceptually, they're no different from humans mentally which means they're fully capable of adapting and responding like any human. The Taboo Index basically neuters any hope of using these AIs for military. So they're trying to induce the AIs into breaking it and study the methods.