Bleach 187 Episode Discussion Thread

[Mitsuomi1971]

Originally Posted by ipernorris

I'm referring to Central 46 above all, but Yamamoto isn't an exception either: we saw how much heartless and selfish they are in Diamond Dust Rebellion, in this Amagai filler, in the Bountou filler and in Rukia's arc as well

Your words were see how selfish THEY are in DDR and in Amagai filler, that is why I responded the way I did...read what you write and keep the personal attacks to yourself...and you are absolutely right that the leadership is heartless...they have to be...in the military a stong discipline and chain of command exist...those rules keep order...the point I think Bleach is always trying to make is that sometimes the rules need to be broken, everything depends on circumstance...we are not far apart on our thinking at all

Originally Posted by ipernorris

Now you come out of nowhere writing a thing even a five year old kiddo knows?

Flattery will get you nowhere...

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by ipernorris

I was talking in general and I referred to Central 46 AND to Yamamoto. My point was that the SS leadership is selfish and hearthless, caring only for the appearance and respect for useless rules, so I listed some examples.

I agree with much of what you're saying, but I think we need to consider that the leadership of SS are men who've been around for centuries, some even longer such as Yammato being like 2000+ years old. While you may think that makes them wiser, I think it makes them stick to tradition alot more. Therefore change is harder and many things are accepted as they were this way for thousands of years. Also considering Yammato is the commander of basically an army, I can understand him leading with an iron fist. Though he's onlly recently taken the role of leading Soul Society as a whole from Central 46's demise.

Originally Posted by neuromancer

Yeah, fair enough. I did consider it but still... For example Hisana had to abandon Rukia and kept her existance a secret, therefore noone knew about her. But Kisaragi was living together with Amagai (Amagai sais his father "was late coming home that night"), there must have been plenty of people, especialy in Kisaragi's squad, that knew about Amagai.

Good point. Definitely would be an oversight by Soul Society if they didn't follow up with the Amagai family activities. Though depending on the circumstances of the killing, he may have left Amagai alone. Even if he did see him as a child, he may not recognize him now.

[Mitsuomi1971]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

Good point. Definitely would be an oversight by Soul Society if they didn't follow up with the Amagai family activities. Though depending on the circumstances of the killing, he may have left Amagai alone. Even if he did see him as a child, he may not recognize him now.

I doubt Amagai stayed in the same house lol...he probably ran off into the woods and eventually made his way to the Rukongai district...they did not spend much time going over his past so I guess we can do nothing but speculate...now the question is...what is Amagai's real full name?

I am a big fan of this character, a shame they had to end it this way. He is truly the only "bad guy" in the series that had a somewhat valid reason for attacking...he is not trying to bring down SS he is just trying to get revenge for his Father...nothing more. Though I truly wish he would have challenged Yamamoto Genryusai up front to a duel...I believe he would have defeated him...now whether he would without the Bakkoutou we will never know. I am still hoping perhaps Amagai will hear the truth about his father since I am speculating he was a traitor and give up the attack...but I know it is just wishful thinking...one thing I have learned about Bleach...it's storylines are very difficult to predict..sure we can get a detail or two right but from what I have seen the finales are usually way off what everyone thought. Like alot of folks figured Amagai was bad...erm that does not take much insight since every character that has been introduced outside the core group with the exception of Cloud,Nova and Ririn have been bad guys lol. And then to predict Ichigo winning lol...uh...again not a hard prediction lol...anyway I am mad about this Amagai Shin'etsu situation...sorry for any negativity on my part

[Casshern]

Well, I don't really like Amagai. He seems really bland and mediocre... even his name sounds like "I'm a guy".

[ipernorris]

Originally Posted by Mitsuomi1971

Your words were see how selfish THEY are in DDR and in Amagai filler, that is why I responded the way I did...read what you write and keep the personal attacks to yourself...and you are absolutely right that the leadership is heartless...they have to be...in the military a stong discipline and chain of command exist...those rules keep order...the point I think Bleach is always trying to make is that sometimes the rules need to be broken, everything depends on circumstance...we are not far apart on our thinking at all

I wrote this:

Originally Posted by ipernorris

I think guys are mistaking ss with good and hueco mundo with evil. In general it's true, but we should keep in mind and shinigami top dogs are a bunch of heartless bastards who only care for the apparence and the obsessive respect of the rules.
I'm referring to Central 46 above all, but Yamamoto isn't an exception either: we saw how much heartless and selfish they are in Diamond Dust Rebellion, in this Amagai filler, in the Bountou filler and in Rukia's arc as well... there are lots of reference to this kind of behaviour in the manga as well, but I can't tell too much otherwise I'll spoil the manga plot.
With such an attitude it's only natural for SS to have tons of enemies...

I stated clearly I was talking in general and I made various examples where BOTH Yamamoto and General 46 were shown as selfish and arrogant leaders. In the Diamond Dust Rebellion it's shown very well what I mean... shinigami don't have respect for life at all, only for their rules, their prestige and other similiar crap.
I know a military organization must have rules and honor to not fall in disarray, but the respect for human life should be the top priority for the so called good guys. My point is that shinigami aren't the good guys at all: they're just a faction like hollows and arrancars are.

Flattery will get you nowhere...

I didn't write that to offend you, but to underline it's obvious that Central 46 isn't implied in the current arc, while you answered me "Central 46 was killed by Aizen" making it sounding I didn't know such an obvious and important fact.

Originally Posted by Vindi89

I agree with much of what you're saying, but I think we need to consider that the leadership of SS are men who've been around for centuries, some even longer such as Yammato being like 2000+ years old. While you may think that makes them wiser, I think it makes them stick to tradition alot more. Therefore change is harder and many things are accepted as they were this way for thousands of years. Also considering Yammato is the commander of basically an army, I can understand him leading with an iron fist. Though he's onlly recently taken the role of leading Soul Society as a whole from Central 46's demise.

Well I don't think being traditionalist is a good excuse to trample on other's life, don't you agree? If you read the manga you certainly know how Central 46 dealt with a certain thing in recent chapters and I didn't like the way they behaved even a little...

[Demon God Asura]

finnaly some hollow action. well next episode

[Xaphan187]

Well i figured it turn out like this to pick a captian and a 3rd seat without seeing them before.Seem a bit odd to me.I knew it would end up like this sadly And about Amagai's Bakkoutou neglates the power elemental attacks maybe? or burst attacks ex.Getsuga Tenshō will most likely be have no effect or possibly wont even work , could be the reason the old mans zanpaktou had no effect.All and all Ichigo will win within the next 2 episodes and put a end to this filler madness.And yes i never liked Amagai always thought he was boring and dull,not to say he couldn't even hold his liquor what kinda man is this.

[Mitsuomi1971]

Originally Posted by Xaphan187

Well i figured it turn out like this to pick a captian and a 3rd seat without seeing them before.Seem a bit odd to me.I knew it would end up like this sadly And about Amagai's Bakkoutou neglates the power elemental attacks maybe? or burst attacks ex.Getsuga Tenshō will most likely be have no effect or possibly wont even work , could be the reason the old mans zanpaktou had no effect.All and all Ichigo will win within the next 2 episodes and put a end to this filler madness.And yes i never liked Amagai always thought he was boring and dull,not to say he couldn't even hold his liquor what kinda man is this.

Ah I see...so it is your opinion that a man is judged by how much alcohol he can drink...

also perhaps Amagai was faking that he can't hold his liquor...yeah yeah, that's it...faking

[The Real Nemo]

Originally Posted by astrallionheart

Amagai is basically the Bleach version of Lelouch. Except in Lelouch of the Rebellion Amagai would be just the opposite side of Yamaji, there would be no "hero" or "villain"; both who legitimately believe in their positions, protect what they treasure and end up stepping on other people on the way.

But in a fighting show, you've always got a last boss. Having the hero side with the lesser of two evils and acting like it was the easiest choice ever with zero remorse...Ichigo chose to side with order over chaos without a second's thought, without seeing the irony that he was looking from the other side only a little earlier. Would it mattered if Yamaji and Amagai both murdered a million babies? No, Amagai hurt my friend Lurichiyo...so you are wrong, I WILL DEFEAT YOU. HAH!

The humorous thing is that, asside from some details, Amagai is basically having his own parallel arc as Ichigo's Rukia Rescue Arc. The difference is, Amagai doesn't have someone to save him like Ichigo had Aizen. If Aizen had never shown himself as the true villain, what would have happened? All our intrepid heroes would have been executed. The rebel always gets crushed by the hammer of order. It's not about right or wrong, its about the right to be right, and that only belongs to the establishment.

If we're comparing this to Code Geass that would put Ichigo pretty firmly in the Suzaku position here.

[MidnightViper88]

Originally Posted by Xaphan187

And about Amagai's Bakkoutou neglates the power elemental attacks maybe? or burst attacks ex.Getsuga Tenshō will most likely be have no effect or possibly wont even work , could be the reason the old mans zanpaktou had no effect.

No, Amagai's bakkoutou just generally negates a shinigami's abilities, to the point where you could say it essentially reduces them to a normal swordsman...Amagai's bakkoutou was only used on Yamamoto, thus only Yamamoto's zanpakutou was negated, but not Enryuu or Kenryuu's, and probably not Ichigo's, since Amagai's bakkoutou wasn't used against either three of them...

It's kind of interesting that Amagai can control his bakkoutou in the reverse effect and have it sap the opponent's spiritual energy instead of the user's, even to the point where it's not even a weapon and he simply "wears" it...

Well, I guess I was wrong about Amagai being a double agent for Yamamoto...Maybe Yamamoto is a double agent for both the Soul Society and the Kasumi-oiji family? Drama!

I'm sure just before Amagai is killed off the arc, we'll learn the truth behind his father and why Yamamoto killed him, and Amagai will realize he made a mistake, and then all becomes hunky-dory after his departure...

Most important of the episode? I guess we now know why Enryuu has decided to become a mute for most of his apperahce...

[Mitsuomi1971]

I believe Amagai said it negates ALL shinigami's abilities making ALL zanpakuto useless except one...Raika...I believe that is the case

[incube]

Originally Posted by Mitsuomi1971

I believe Amagai said it negates ALL shinigami's abilities making ALL zanpakuto useless except one...Raika...I believe that is the case

yes he did but since Ichigo was still able to go into bankai state and use his hollow powers.... well that proves that it doesnt negate everything. Also usually a much powerful force can break anything even if it is supposed to be impossible. Ichigo did break a "inbreak-able" binding spell in the first episode and i also remember him escaping that mirror bakoutou attack that was supposed to be "impossible to break out".

[Airyline]

R.I.P Amagai ~

On the whole it was an okay episode. People who say there was too much talking don't know what they're on about. C'mon its an anime for gods sake, without the talking it'd be so lame, just fighting fighting fighting and guess what... fighting. You need the talking to understand whats happening, and to learn more about a person - such as amagai's - personality.

In the previews it shows Ichigo in bankai mode and with his hollow mask. I wonder what effect that will have on him, with the general being there and all and most probably the other shinigami captains will come.

One thing I don't get is how come shadow used his 2 fists when fighting the bakkutou guy way earlier in these fillers in karakura town. Didn't he discover that in HM? I had a feeling for a moment that these fillers were after the whole aizen thing o.o. Even orihime was in one of the episodes if im not mistaken. There was something about ishida's powers on this I read somewhere aswell.. Hmm, can anybody prove me wrong?

~Airy

[Mitsuomi1971]

I believe the Ishida thing was Silver Swallow...it fires 1200 arrows per second...

[MidnightViper88]

Something jumped into my head this morning before going to class...As much as we HATE Ichigo to be the main hero again, he's the only character that has the potential to defeat Amagai at this point because even if Amagai uses his bakkoutou against Ichigo and negates his shinigami powers, Ichigo still has hollow powers to fall back on...How he can still use bankai, who knows...If he can use his hollow powers to supplement his shinigami powers, maybe he's able to use his hollow powers in place of his shinigami powers, or because of the hollow powers, it can even negate whatever anti-shinigami effects Amagai's bakkoutou would have on Ichigo...

Ichigo definitely has a loop-hole to be found with his hybrid Vizard powers that Amagai is most likely unaware of...

[Mitsuomi1971]

He is unaware because he did not come to kill Ichigo...he came to kill Yama and Ichigo is butting in where he has no place...as usual

[MidnightViper88]

I meant unaware in that Amagai has already personally faced Ichigo in battle once, but only as a shinigami, and not as a vizard...

[Mitsuomi1971]

true enough that...but Ichigo is still butting in where he is not wanted by the fans or at least the majority of fans I have spoken with...If Amagai is going to go all out and get himself killed I guess I would have rather seen Yama do it.

[MidnightViper88]

In the 2000+ years Yamamoto has been Captain-General on the Soul Society, I'm sure he's strong enough to kick someone's ass with an unreleased zanpakuto...Against a bakkoutou/bankai Captain-level Amagai, that is a level of ownage I'd rather see...

[WONDERMIKE]

Originally Posted by Mitsuomi1971

He is unaware because he did not come to kill Ichigo...he came to kill Yama and Ichigo is butting in where he has no place...as usual

lol right, the loli deserves to die for whatever her ancestors did come on, this is one major flaw in AmAm's motivation.. and it makes perfect sense when Ichigo is furious about it