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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 10 Rating
Perfect 10 294 82.12%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 39 10.89%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 13 3.63%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 1.96%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 0.56%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 0.56%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.28%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 358. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-03-23, 06:50   Link #981
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilver View Post
I have never understood all the cat discussion. I even thought it was a joke until I saw it appearing in thread after thread.

IMO, the intro was to show the differences between an idealized (false) reality and the very real tragedy.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar... and sometimes a cat is just a cat.



Just to be fun/stupid:

The cat is Kyubey after Madoka wishes for him to stop being evil.
Spoiler for Kazumi Magica manga:


Putting that spoiler aside, much (if not all) of the Madoka Magica OP is clearly reflecting the content of the show. Heck, it's that OP that let people in on Kamijo's existence before he showed up in the anime.

For the black cat to have a prominent role in the OP, but to not show up at all in the anime, would be very odd, imo.
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Old 2011-03-23, 09:08   Link #982
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Does the cat have a prominent role? It was only there a couple seconds.
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Old 2011-03-23, 09:09   Link #983
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I always figured that the OP showed what Madoka would be like if it was a usual Mahou Shoujo show, all happy and idealistic, with cute friendly animals as well.

Madoka's other persona, shown in the OP, also hasn't been seen.
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Old 2011-03-23, 11:02   Link #984
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Is power tied to wish? We don't know, there's no confirmation.
In episode 3, QB tells Madoka "if you become a Puella Magi, you'd be so much more powerful than Mami. / [...] Of course, it would also depend on what you wish for when you make the contract." There's an innate capacity, apparently amplified or decreased by the nature of the specific wish.

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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I don't dismiss the cat because so far the show has been painstakingly detailed and plotted out. The references to classic literature, historical figures, compositions, allegories, etc., are all done through animation and plot and all are relevant to some degree.

The only anomaly is that cat. Two episodes left but we've never actually seen it in the show and it even makes an appearance in promotional artwork. It is either a legendary troll, or it means something (Schrodinger's?).
I think we may have seen the cat! I'm thinking of a scene in episode 4, where Madoka runs away from Hitomi and the other suicidal people, locks herself in a room, and then falls into a witch's realm. There's a bizarre sequence in which little animated figures tear Madoka to pieces and consume the bits of her[!!!], leaving a black field, in which we see what seem like stars revolving, and a central four-pointed star opens up and flashes, and then the darkness irises so that we are looking out through the eyelids of an unspecified creature, to see Madoka floating in the air. Now, if you look at the outline of the eyelids, you can tell that they are furry! I had originally thought we were looking at Madoka from the witch's perspective, and that may still be true. But it is possible we are looking at her from the point of view of the mysterious cat!

The time-stamp is around 19:18.

I'm not sure what to make of this hallucinatory sequence at all.

Another place where we look out an eyelid is of course in the OP, where we look out Madoka's eye to see the outline of the cat in front of her. The eyelids in this case is smooth--it's Madoka and not the cat's perspective. But this little scene might be a clue to us that the eye in episode 4 may in fact be the cat's. There would be a nice reverse symmetry: Madoka looking at the cat in the OP, and the cat looking at Madoka in the episode.

Such a game!

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Originally Posted by Snork View Post
alas, there is no solid proof to [Kyoko's] ideas [about trying to save witch Sayaka] so far.
Kyoko is experimenting, trying to find out what is possible to do with witches. QB later dismisses her efforts as impossible from the start, but I wonder. I would just note that Kyoko repeats what Madoka herself tries to do in timeline 4: in the fight with witch Sayaka, Madoka calls out to her and tries to bring her back to her human self. That Madoka tries gives the idea a degree of credibility.

Also, in the current timeline's fight with the witch Sayaka, there is a moment in which the witch has Madoka in her hand. The moment is long enough that you could argue that the witch could be holding herself back. After all, how long does it take for a giant witch to close her fist and squish what she's holding?

But Kyoko's plan may still simply be impossible, of course. She dismisses it herself in her brief conversation with Homura. So who knows?

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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
At least Sayaka can get a funeral. I bet that's pretty rare for Magical Girls in this story.
Homura says as much. In episode 4, she and Madoka discuss the aftermath of Mami's death. Homura explains that if you die on the other side, your body never turns up in the real world. "That's how the life of a Puella Magi ends." So Sayaka's fate is exceptional.

Last edited by Solace; 2011-03-23 at 12:19. Reason: ...
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Old 2011-03-23, 11:27   Link #985
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Kyoko's plan made some sense at a theoretical level.

Being a witch is not the same as being dead.

Presumably, some shred of humanity within the soul that became the witch still remains in the form of the witch, or the witch's realm wouldn't reflect the life that the human/magical girl led before becoming a witch.

Sayaka/Octavia's witch's realm just screams "Kamijo", for example.


Ironically, I think that Kyoko's plan may have worked if Kamijo himself (as opposed to Madoka) was the one to appeal to Sayaka.
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Old 2011-03-23, 11:34   Link #986
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Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
In episode 3, QB tells Madoka
"if you become a Puella Magi, you'd be so much more powerful than Mami. / [...] Of course, it would also depend on what you wish for when you make the contract, but even I can't estimate how large of a Soul Gom you might produce."

If you add the last bit of that line, it's kinda clear QB predicts Madoka is going to be insanely powerfully regardless of her wish.
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Old 2011-03-23, 11:44   Link #987
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
"if you become a Puella Magi, you'd be so much more powerful than Mami. / [...] Of course, it would also depend on what you wish for when you make the contract, but even I can't estimate how large of a Soul Gom you might produce."

If you add the last bit of that line, it's kinda clear QB predicts Madoka is going to be insanely powerfully regardless of her wish.
maybe QB is leading madoka to become Haruhi

and that why QB send back homu-homu repeating time until madoka wish like what he want

and saying that entropy bullshit to homu-homu as excuse
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Old 2011-03-23, 11:52   Link #988
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Originally Posted by NutShell View Post
maybe QB is leading madoka to become Haruhi

and that why QB send back homu-homu repeating time until madoka wish like what he want
I don't really think the wish is what makes Madoka so powerful in the last two time lines. Some people think that way, but not me. QB's words in episode 3 imply Madoka would be extremely powerful regardless of her wish.

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Originally Posted by NutShell View Post
and saying that entropy bullshit to homu-homu as excuse
Why? Time and entropy are basically the same thing. If your wish makes you go back in time, then, as QB said to Homura, that wish transcends/overcomes entropy. There's no deeper meaning to it, IMO, but he wasn't lying.
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Old 2011-03-23, 11:56   Link #989
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Not to mention "unknown cause of death".

The Sayaka case would become one of the biggest mysteries in all of Japan.

Some strange means of suicide due to unrequited love would become a popular theory for cause of death, but since murder couldn't be ruled out, there would likely be an extensive police investigation looking into it.


Realistically, the fallout of Sayaka's death should be pretty huge.
You are certainly right.

I wonder if this is what Homura has in mind when she warns Kyoko about how she disposes of the body. "You carried the body out, but be careful with it. / It can cause us trouble if you get rid of it carelessly."

Or does Homura mean something else?
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Old 2011-03-23, 12:28   Link #990
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Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
You are certainly right.

I wonder if this is what Homura has in mind when she warns Kyoko about how she disposes of the body. "You carried the body out, but be careful with it. / It can cause us trouble if you get rid of it carelessly."

Or does Homura mean something else?
Honestly, it's lines like this that stop me from loving Homura as much as many fans do. Talk about cold...

Episode 10 doesn't make that line any less cold, imo.


But yes, that's probably what Homura meant.
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Old 2011-03-23, 12:30   Link #991
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and saying that entropy bullshit to homu-homu as excuse
Or maybe he's gathering Madoka's energy on each timeline till he gets something nearly infinite. Then, he could lets Homura go forward...
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Old 2011-03-23, 15:51   Link #992
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Or maybe he's gathering Madoka's energy on each timeline till he gets something nearly infinite. Then, he could lets Homura go forward...
Ofcourse, that assumes Kyuube actually can stock the energy with each loop meaning he would travel in time as well. However he was shown to have no knowledge of Homura or her powers at all.

"this is the 2nd time you killed me" he said. Try 1XXX times lol.

Ofcourse He could always just be acting. But so far, he doesnt seem the the type. He hasnt out right lied at all. He only omits facts. If he is asked, he always answers. He wasnt lying about Kyouko's theories to save Sayaka either. He really doesnt think its possible but he still told her that no one has ever tried.
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Old 2011-03-23, 20:16   Link #993
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Honestly, it's lines like this that stop me from loving Homura as much as many fans do. Talk about cold...

Episode 10 doesn't make that line any less cold, imo.


But yes, that's probably what Homura meant.
Hah. It's lines like that which make me like her character. Her line is a matter of a fact. She got straight to the point. We shouldn't let emotion override what clearly needs to be done.
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Old 2011-03-23, 21:11   Link #994
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Hah. It's lines like that which make me like her character. Her line is a matter of a fact. She got straight to the point. We shouldn't let emotion override what clearly needs to be done.
It's a bit disrespectful to a human being that just lost her body (basically), and to the people that clearly cared about that human being (Kyoko and Madoka).

You don't need to "let emotion override what clearly needs to be done" in order to show some basic human decency when tragedy befalls people.

There's a considerate and tactful way of putting things, and a needlessly cold way of putting things. Fair too often, Homura chooses the latter, imo.


And, at a pragmatic level, there's no doubt that Homura succeeded in needlessly pissing off Kyoko with her overall approach to the situation. If Homura hadn't done that, and instead had tried to comfort Kyoko a bit and talk her into a wiser course of action than what Kyoko ultimately took, maybe Kyoko would still be there to fight against Walpurgis Night.


To a certain degree, this anime is a comedy of errors.

In many cases, the errors are actually about characters not caring enough about each other (Sayaka's attitude towards Homura, Homura's attitude towards Sayaka, Kamijo's borderline apathy towards Sayaka, Kyoko starting out by trying to kill Sayaka, Kyoko and Homura managing an uneasy alliance at best, etc...).

In the end, I wonder if this might be what enables Madoka to save the day...

Through it all, Madoka has shown a degree of caring and concern for virtually everybody.
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Old 2011-03-23, 23:13   Link #995
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With everything Homura's been through I think it's rather amazing that she still shows such concern for Madoka. With each trip to the past, I think her attachment to the reality she's in would weaken. Partly because she can just hit the reset button again, and partly because if she doesn't shield herself emotionally, she wouldn't be able to go through it all again and again. Her reaction at the end of the lastly shown timeline is somewhat evident of this. So I don't think we can fault her at all for acting cold.
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Old 2011-03-23, 23:34   Link #996
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It's a bit disrespectful to a human being that just lost her body (basically), and to the people that clearly cared about that human being (Kyoko and Madoka).

You don't need to "let emotion override what clearly needs to be done" in order to show some basic human decency when tragedy befalls people.
Heh... when did you become so considerate of people's feelings? I thought you were in this as an intellectual.

I assume you do not find Homura's cold indifference to be cool or badass at all. But a lot of people do. And that's why Homura flicks her hair in the wind. There is no reason for said detail; it merely looks cool! Makes fanboys squeal and fangirls faint.

Certainly, if this were real life, then I would be very pissed off to have Homura as a friend. The joys of being a viewer...

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And, at a pragmatic level, there's no doubt that Homura succeeded in needlessly pissing off Kyoko with her overall approach to the situation. If Homura hadn't done that, and instead had tried to comfort Kyoko a bit and talk her into a wiser course of action than what Kyoko ultimately took, maybe Kyoko would still be there to fight against Walpurgis Night.
I agree that Homura's personality is counter-productive, but it isn't like Homura wanted to become the dark magical girl. Like Sayaka, Homura had a desire: protecting Madoka. To achieve that end, Homura threw away the glasses and picked up some guns. Whether she is consciously aware of her descent, or is being subconsciously driven to protect Madoka, the end result is one time-stopping killing machine. I can find little fault with Homura for doing some crazy stuff in order to protect her love.

However, I note that Kyoko and Homura demonstrated at least a basic level of friendship (sitting together in the same room, talking about the day's casualties). I think Homura is capable of working together. But I don't know if she can smile anymore.

Logically speaking, Homura could have stopped time and everyone could have just ran away from witch Sayaka. But that would have made the scene far less compelling... what greater drama is there than a sacrifice to liberate one's best friend from their own transformation?

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
In many cases, the errors are actually about characters not caring enough about each other (Sayaka's attitude towards Homura, Homura's attitude towards Sayaka, Kamijo's borderline apathy towards Sayaka, Kyoko starting out by trying to kill Sayaka, Kyoko and Homura managing an uneasy alliance at best, etc...).

In the end, I wonder if this might be what enables Madoka to save the day...

Through it all, Madoka has shown a degree of caring and concern for virtually everybody.
I want Madoka to stay true to her genuinely altruistic emotions, which will somehow solve the problems of Kyubey and witches. But by definition, I'm talking about a miracle.
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Old 2011-03-24, 02:52   Link #997
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I assume you do not find Homura's cold indifference to be cool or badass at all. But a lot of people do. And that's why Homura flicks her hair in the wind. There is no reason for said detail; it merely looks cool! Makes fanboys squeal and fangirls faint.
Or makes Modoka squeal and faint.

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I agree that Homura's personality is counter-productive, but it isn't like Homura wanted to become the dark magical girl. Like Sayaka, Homura had a desire: protecting Madoka. To achieve that end, Homura threw away the glasses and picked up some guns. Whether she is consciously aware of her descent, or is being subconsciously driven to protect Madoka, the end result is one time-stopping killing machine. I can find little fault with Homura for doing some crazy stuff in order to protect her love.
The sad part is, she is fully aware of her descent (watching your allies die and killing your best friend will do that <on top of Kyubei's betrayal>).

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But I don't know if she can smile anymore.
After what she's been through, we are in agreement here.
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Old 2011-03-24, 03:07   Link #998
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Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
Heh... when did you become so considerate of people's feelings? I thought you were in this as an intellectual.

I assume you do not find Homura's cold indifference to be cool or badass at all. But a lot of people do. And that's why Homura flicks her hair in the wind. There is no reason for said detail; it merely looks cool! Makes fanboys squeal and fangirls faint.
Damn, my cover's been blown.

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It's a bit disrespectful to a human being that just lost her body (basically), and to the people that clearly cared about that human being (Kyoko and Madoka).

You don't need to "let emotion override what clearly needs to be done" in order to show some basic human decency when tragedy befalls people.

There's a considerate and tactful way of putting things, and a needlessly cold way of putting things. Fair too often, Homura chooses the latter, imo.


And, at a pragmatic level, there's no doubt that Homura succeeded in needlessly pissing off Kyoko with her overall approach to the situation. If Homura hadn't done that, and instead had tried to comfort Kyoko a bit and talk her into a wiser course of action than what Kyoko ultimately took, maybe Kyoko would still be there to fight against Walpurgis Night.
Yes, Homura does come off like a cold bitch, and yes her actions had a negative expected value. But it's just that her mind is not right, and her social skills were never that great to begin with. She has no idea of her plans will work, so she's really deciding these things on the go, and as it turns out she has many flaws.

You could possible interpret someone say, like Mai Kawasumi, as a cold bitch, if you just took her actions at face value

Spoiler for Kanon 2006:


Not that it justifies anyone's action. But I could at least empathize with it better


Quote:
To a certain degree, this anime is a comedy of errors.

In many cases, the errors are actually about characters not caring enough about each other (Sayaka's attitude towards Homura, Homura's attitude towards Sayaka, Kamijo's borderline apathy towards Sayaka, Kyoko starting out by trying to kill Sayaka, Kyoko and Homura managing an uneasy alliance at best, etc...).

In the end, I wonder if this might be what enables Madoka to save the day...

Through it all, Madoka has shown a degree of caring and concern for virtually everybody.
Yea, good point. Care... and trust. And even if they do care about each other, they really don't know how to show it properly. It's been a driving source of tragedy in animes like Evangelion, and most certainly-- Higurashi.
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Old 2011-03-24, 04:51   Link #999
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Now, if you look at the outline of the eyelids, you can tell that they are furry!
Actually, I think I saw the same type of eyelids with rough ["furry"?] edges when Homura woke up in timeline 2... oh wait, hopefully it's not hinting at her? frankly speaking, I don't like the Nekomura theory (I like Nekomimi Homura art, though)

Quote:
That Madoka tries gives the idea a degree of credibility.
Madoka was just trying to call her friend back into shape. She herself didn't know if it was effective or not, since she knew nothing exact about the system (even Homura didn't, at that time).
Both Madoka and Kyoko tried to approach Octavia believing that she is but a wall of despair and madness Sayaka built around herself. But here's the $1000000 question: was there a Sayaka Miki to call in the first place? True, Octavia's barrier and appearance seems to comprise details and bits of Sayaka's character/memories/experience, but that may be nothing more than leftovers. If the identity is lost during the Soul Gem transformation, then at the beginning of episode 9 the real Sayaka was as dead as Mami.

Quote:
Also, in the current timeline's fight with the witch Sayaka, there is a moment in which the witch has Madoka in her hand. The moment is long enough that you could argue that the witch could be holding herself back. After all, how long does it take for a giant witch to close her fist and squish what she's holding?
Just as much time as she needs to inspect her prey. And judging by the sound, she WAS trying to squish Madoka. Besides, we don't know if Octavia is actually that strong physically - size doesn't always equal power, and Octavia relies on range attacks anyway.
Of course, watching Madoka up close might have rung some bell even in this case, since Madoka is also part of Sayaka's memories. But whether these memories actually mean something to Octavia is debatable. We simply don't have enough information on how witches live.

Quote:
Ironically, I think that Kyoko's plan may have worked if Kamijo himself (as opposed to Madoka) was the one to appeal to Sayaka.
Unless she would unleash her rage on him for neglecting her...
But it's almost official that only girls with an innate gift for magic (or high energy capacity? go figure what Kyuubey sees as a "potential") can enter a witch's realm. It's probably how Mami identified Madoka and Sayaka before offering them to join her ranks. The most other people get is a witch's kiss. So I don't know if Kamijou had any chances of confronting Octavia at all. No illusion breakers for us this time, sorry.

Quote:
To a certain degree, this anime is a comedy of errors.

In many cases, the errors are actually about characters not caring enough about each other (Sayaka's attitude towards Homura, Homura's attitude towards Sayaka, Kamijo's borderline apathy towards Sayaka, Kyoko starting out by trying to kill Sayaka, Kyoko and Homura managing an uneasy alliance at best, etc...).
I could sign below this.
Homura's attitude is indeed faulty. Moreover, what episode 10 showed us is that this attitude might be not her chosen modus operandi, but rather a shell she locked herself in. Especially after that last gunshot she fired in timeline 3. Do you really think a girl like Homura could come through it all unscathed?

Quote:
Or makes Modoka squeal and faint.
Which fails so far.
I actually think Homura might have developed this habit because she had some trouble getting used to hair getting in her eyes. She had used to wear it in braids, after all.
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Old 2011-03-24, 05:21   Link #1000
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Originally Posted by Deconstructor View Post
Heh... when did you become so considerate of people's feelings? I thought you were in this as an intellectual.

I assume you do not find Homura's cold indifference to be cool or badass at all. But a lot of people do. And that's why Homura flicks her hair in the wind. There is no reason for said detail; it merely looks cool! Makes fanboys squeal and fangirls faint.

Certainly, if this were real life, then I would be very pissed off to have Homura as a friend. The joys of being a viewer...
When evaluating a work and its characters, I try to put myself in the various character's shoes, at least for certain key moments, in order to try to get a better handle of where they're coming from.

And as you say, if this was real life, someone-in-Kyoko's-shoes would have reason to be very pissed off with Homura, and it's not really hard to see why.

But, from a viewer perspective, I can definitely see and appreciate how Homura is badass and cool. But that doesn't mean that everything she does is smart.

The hair-waving element is a nice touch, though.



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I could sign below this.
Homura's attitude is indeed faulty. Moreover, what episode 10 showed us is that this attitude might be not her chosen modus operandi, but rather a shell she locked herself in. Especially after that last gunshot she fired in timeline 3. Do you really think a girl like Homura could come through it all unscathed?
Now that I think about it, the fourth timeline is the one where Homura chucks the glasses and undergoes her most drastic character change.

So the mercy killing of Madoka that ends Timeline 3 was probably the final straw for Homura. That makes sense.
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