2010-08-22, 23:20 | Link #661 | |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
|
Quote:
About 'fair play'. We cannot decide if this mystery is fair play unless we actually know the truth. Bern only showed us her truth. This is similar to the talk in episode 6 about the geocentric universe. If the epitaph is solved, Beatrice will stop killing. Let's say that is true, that does not say Shanon, Kanon, Sayo, Yoshiya, Yatsu, or Gaap can't. Let's take that last part literally, if Beatrice stops murdering... then I can see how Bern's truth receives credibility.
__________________
|
|
2010-08-23, 02:05 | Link #662 | ||
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
|
Quote:
And then in arc 3 she's the second to find it, and in both 3 and 5 she gives hints to solve it. I'm not saying she does solve it every time, but such a possibility exists very clearly. Actually there's also the possibility that Maria solves it as well every time. Quote:
No we can decide the mystery isn't fair play by the logic that riddles aren't necessarily fair, because you get to chose "the" answer among many coexisting possible one. A real fair mystery is a math equation. For instance suppose arc 5 never came out, or hadn't come out yet. It's possible that a fan reach the same theory as Erika about a Natsuhi culprit theory. There was no ways to rule out that possibility until arc 5. Tons of other such possibilities co exist until they have been ruled out. That's because Umineko is a riddle. To be really fair tho, if Umineko was fairplay we'd have found the answer forever ago. I think that the truth in umineko is really presented as a lover trying to hint they're in love with the other but be too shy/unconfident to say it. We need a ridiculous ammount of observation skills and faith in a specific theory based on it to be able to reach any answer. Edit : If we're to list all the personas of Shkanon I think it's not completely insane to add "zero on the roulette" from arc 1 as one of it. |
||
2010-08-23, 02:23 | Link #663 | |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
|
Quote:
The simple fact the designated culprit in a theory is confirmed dead from the first twilight with certainty in 3 occurences among 4 dampens the probability near to 0. Natsuhi being the culprit theory was never credible.
__________________
|
|
2010-08-23, 02:25 | Link #664 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
|
What about it if you don't mind saying so?
If you're referring to the "people being really dead once their corpses were found" if they weren't corpse it means nothing. Edit: She's a very credible killer, as arc 5 confirmed she did an action that at least she believes led to the death of two people, one of which being a baby and another being a maid who really had nothing to do in all of this. |
2010-08-23, 02:29 | Link #665 | |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2010-08-23, 02:31 | Link #666 | |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
|
Quote:
Let's say for example now, I went through the book thinking that the clues point to Kanon being the culprit. I cannot just state that is true since a single answer isn't given. The mystery is not over yet.
__________________
|
|
2010-08-23, 02:33 | Link #667 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
|
The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!
If they weren't really discovered cause they weren't corpse it doesn't seem to mean much to me. Anyway there's no point in continuing this, as always you decided your opinion is a fact. It's not like I believe any of this but it's just that way, no matter how you are certain something isn't the truth, it doesn't mean it's not the truth. Edit: No I'm saying fair play stories aren't riddles. They don't rule out every other possibilities, because they don't have to. As Renal said at one point it's very likely that once the final truth of arc 8 is out another equally valid interpretation can also coexist. |
2010-08-23, 02:34 | Link #668 |
Senior Member
|
There's also another thing to consider in the whole fair mystery debate. And that is that Ryukishi also has his own disadvantages.
In the average mystery, it is normally only one book in length, and people don't normally get near the end, and stop reading it for months to debate about the solution. Ryukishi on the other hand, puts out his novels in parts, alternating between 8 and 4 months, where people online can freely discuss them (This is why there are so many well known theories.) From Episode 1 to Episode 8 is a period of 4 years for a bunch of people to work together making theories. Normally a mystery writer is only challenging one person, the current reader. Ryukishi on the other hand, is pretty much challenging every reader all at once. To use Will's example: It may be that we are fighting a knight equipped only with a bone, but there are hundreds of us. EDIT: V Sorry, I didn't see that. Although I still don't think it balances out, and still think it's a fair mystery even if you read it all the way through. Just something for both sides of the argument to think about. |
2010-08-23, 02:39 | Link #670 | |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
|
Quote:
Notice that the intent and the context of the red text is definite and obvious in this case. The word "discover" has no underlying definition and is pretty much a straightforward word (and I think the japanese term isn't any special either). Plus, Beato never said "when the six corpses were discovered" but stated "six PEOPLE". Therefore, their living and dead status weren't taken as a subject. "dead" was attributed to the said 6 at the given timing, hence when they were discovered. The sentence does not mean "the corpses were discovered", but "6 people = dead [when] discovered". To doubt such kind of red just make the whole red system worthless and useless. Then what, can we start doubting whereas "I'm not you" Beato's red, because a personality of the same person isn't considered as "you" then? Likewise, we can then declare that Erika, Battler and Kanon are the same person in Episode 6? This is a ridiculous nitpicking. I do not present my opinion as a fact here: I present a factual red text. Whereas red text like Kanon's death in Episode 2 can be dodgy, this one is unlikely. Branding the "that's your opinion only" just make any discussion moot and trivial, since then I can simply present any theory involving alien and disregard Umineko red, because of abuse of semantic.
__________________
|
|
2010-08-23, 04:30 | Link #671 | |
Awakened One
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Northern Italy
|
Quote:
After Ep.7 solving Episodes 1, 2 and 4 becomes a mere intellectual exercise, just as solving the closed room murders proved to be unimportant to the plot.
__________________
|
|
2010-08-23, 04:33 | Link #672 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
|
There is a major difference: Bernkastel never claimed these 2 are the culprits for all games (unless I've missed that point in Episode 7). She merely claims that Kyrie and Rudolf were the ones behind the murders in that kakera, and her red text isn't even complete.
Meanwhile, Erika claimed that Natsuhi was the culprit and even promised Bern that she would construct a truth that would be suitable for every game, which is impossible. The whole deal just proves a possibility of "specific murderer(s) for a given game" with the culprit (read: mastermind) being consistent to a certain degree.
__________________
|
2010-08-23, 06:30 | Link #673 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
|
That may be so, but even if we assume those were the events in the real Rokkenjima, things do not necessarily play out the same way the games. I mean, Eva survives in the real Rokkenjima, yet she dies in 3 out of 4 games, and rather early to boot.
__________________
|
2010-08-23, 10:17 | Link #674 |
Senior Member
|
Rudolph and Kyrie are murdering people! -> Bern says it's 'the truth ...'
The author of the bottle letter killed Rudolph and Kyrie on the first twilight. -> Despite Rudolph and Kyrie dead, the killing in Episode 1 and 2 (bottle letters) continues. -> There is a murderer and a culprit in Episode 1 and 2. Rudolph and Kyrie = murderers BUT Rudolph and Kyrie =/= culprit That would be a logical equation, based on what we saw so far. So Rudolph and Kyrie can become murderers, and maybe they even did, but they are not necessary for the murders to occur in the first place. It's like you can bake a lemon cake with actuall lemon slices, lemon juice or artficial lemon flavor. In the end you got a lemon cake. Somebody with an allergy would react different to it, maybe even the taste would be slighty different, but it is lemon cake. We still should not forget that (as far as we know) every account we've seen so far is an artificial recreation of the Rokkenjima incident. Be it written before or after the tragedy.
__________________
|
2010-08-23, 10:57 | Link #675 |
Awakened One
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Northern Italy
|
At first I thought that the events of Episode 1 were the true reality, while all other episodes were fiction created by the Game Master as a challenge to the human side. But now it appears that the Truth was something similar (but not identical) to episode 3, where only Eva survived, while everything else (including Ep.1) is a forgery. Am I mistaken?
__________________
|
2010-08-23, 11:08 | Link #676 | |
Senior Member
|
Quote:
Everything from Banquet on is said to be a series of novels, fictionalizing the events on Rokkenjima, written by Hachijo Toya (who is still pretty suspicious). That does not mean that they are any closer to the truth, not even Episode 3, but she had the information that Eva survived to center her novels around it. The bottle letters, as said by Ange and the Witch Hunters in Episode 4, were probably sent before the typhoon even reached Rokkenjima, because otherwise they would not have found the first one so fast. Meaning they had to be written before approximately 18:00 of the 4th. That means that Episode 1 and 2 would have been written with inside knowledge by someone who was on the island (and by signature comparison was probably Maria's Beatrice and the one sending the letters including the cash cards), but they were written before the incident, meaning they were only an IDEA of what would probably happen. Episode 3 and 4 were written ater the incident, meaning they had the results ready, like Eva surviving, becoming the family head, everybody else dead, only Maria's jawbone found. But they were probably written by an outsider, so the person lacked knowledge of what was actually behind the murders.
__________________
|
|
2010-08-23, 11:17 | Link #677 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Also, we have no idea what ep7 is. There's no way to know for sure whether Requiem is itself a new forgery, an entirely fictionally independent episode, whether the book at the "funeral" is meant to be Requiem, or what. The Featherine/Bernkastel relationship at the end of ep6 and ep7 does not imply Tohya's existence or interference or authorship at all.
Of course, if ep1-6 are fictions existing in the universe of some kind of Prime World, it's very plausible ep7 is too, but I don't think it's been said.
__________________
|
2010-08-23, 12:21 | Link #678 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2010-08-23, 12:43 | Link #680 | |
Senior Member
|
Quote:
But you can fit some stuff on about 40 pages and at least give a general outline of the events, so that whoever is reading it to us can fill in the blanks (in Episode 1 till 4 that narrator for us could be supposed to be Beatrice). And Jessica was informed by about 24 hours notice, which can imply anything, but I suppose Natsuhi would have known only some hours earlier. I would say his presence on the island could have been known about 48 hours befor his arrival.
__________________
|
|
|
|