Character discussion - Makoto

[willyvereb]

Yeah, but it clarifies Kotonoha isn't innocent either. As I said revenge isn't a good option. And being mean to somone who hurt you is somehow close to the revenge.
And Kotonoha has her troubles brought on herself like Sekai. And I think it isn't make smaller the volume of things happened to her. Same with Sekai.
Was Kotonoha ever pregnant? Liked she someone for more than a year? Achieved she the level of inimancy with Makot that Sekai?
I think the answer is no. And those 3 shows how much more painfull to Sekai Makoto's cruel attitude. If after all that he acts like he did he's certainly a jerk, not a simple coward like he was until ep 7-8.

[BetoJR]

See, that's why I can't have Kotonoha as this innocent, pure rosebud... she was pretty nasty, in that final day. "She thought Sekai wasn't pregnant"? Why was that not even brought up until she opened her up, then? If I remember correctly - and I think I do - she wanted her to have an abortion, of all things.

I mean, honestly, we'll never agree, as I don't think her "mistreat" at the early stages of the series was ever anything to be so worked up about - she had no reason to lose her life over a cheating boyfriend, people don't usually break over these kinds of things - and I do not think she was justified in her behavior towards Sekai, before she committed her crime.

[Akka]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

See, that's why I can't have Kotonoha as this innocent, pure rosebud... she was pretty nasty, in that final day. "She thought Sekai wasn't pregnant"? Why was that not even brought up until she opened her up, then? If I remember correctly - and I think I do - she wanted her to have an abortion, of all things.

She wasn't innocent/pure, but I forgive her quite a bit more because she had broken down by this time - I just can't put on the same ground the acts of someone who has snapped and the acts of someone who is perfectly in control of himself. That's why there is prisons and psychiatric hospitals.

And because her snapping was due in big part to other's nastiness. It's all good and well to say "revenge is a bad answer", but as true it is in practical terms, it doesn't mean it's not an understandable reaction, it gives quite a bit of excuse (as long as it's not blown out of proportion, and she admittedly is quite a debatale case) nor does it diminish how nasty others actions were toward here.

I mean, honestly, we'll never agree, as I don't think her "mistreat" at the early stages of the series was ever anything to be so worked up about - she had no reason to lose her life over a cheating boyfriend, people don't usually break over these kinds of things - and I do not think she was justified in her behavior towards Sekai, before she committed her crime.

I agree that her losing her life (and also Sekai's) over Makoto is pure waste, and that her breaking down due to being rejected and being insanely (in the very meaning of the term) clingy to an obviously no-more-interested boyfriend is very excessive - that's, I've acknowledged several times, where her own fault lies.

But I think she's totally and entirely justified in her being nasty to Sekai, though. If you treat badly someone, you've no right to complain when these persons treat you badly back. I see it as acceptable comeuppance.

If I spit on someone out of the blue, I don't think I could complain if I get a punch in the face - I asked for it, I got it.
Seeing your reasoning, I think that's probably a point where we'll have to agree to disagree.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Akka

But I think she's totally and entirely justified in her being nasty to Sekai, though. If you treat badly someone, you've no right to complain when these persons treat you badly back. I see it as acceptable comeuppance.

If I spit on someone out of the blue, I don't think I could complain if I get a punch in the face - I asked for it, I got it.

The thing about Sekai is that she never intended to be "nasty" to Kotonoha and she really never was. All of Sekai's decisions stem from her feelings for Makoto so I really don't see how that's being "nasty" to her. At the time, Makoto was recently being exposed to relationships and Sekai fell in love with him. "All is fair in love and war."

In this case, let's say you made someone laugh and they spit whatever beverage they were drinking on you, would you spit back at him? Or retaliate in someway?

[willyvereb]

Yeah, the very least the New Testament of the Bible says otherwise(as many other relligions)
It shows you're "better" than the person who hurt you by not paying him/her back for his/her bad doings.

[Akka]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

The thing about Sekai is that she never intended to be "nasty" to Kotonoha and she really never was. All of Sekai's decisions stem from her feelings for Makoto so I really don't see how that's being "nasty" to her. At the time, Makoto was recently being exposed to relationships and Sekai fell in love with him. "All is fair in love and war."

You gotta excuse me if I don't consider lieing, cheating and being hypocrital as not being nasty.
We probably don't have the same basic values.

In this case, let's say you made someone laugh and they spit whatever beverage they were drinking on you, would you spit back at him? Or retaliate in someway?

God, I can't even manage to be ironic about how you stickied to the bare letters while completely missing the spirit behind. I'm speechless...

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Yeah, the very least the New Testament of the Bible says otherwise(as many other relligions)
It shows you're "better" than the person who hurt you by not paying him/her back for his/her bad doings.

That's something I can respect and value when it's really sincere - meaning you don't do it simply because you consider it's not good to be mean with other, if you do it only to show "I'm better", it's more hypocrisis than anything else - but it doesn't mean that people who can't elevate as morally high enters the realm of immorality.
It may be "better" to act like this, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's "bad" to act, well, "less purely".

I do tend to prefer backlash, because I don't like people getting away with being mean/bad/etc., and I consider that "bad should be punished, good should be rewarded", but it doesn't mean I don't understand the other concept.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Akka

You gotta excuse me if I don't consider lieing, cheating and being hypocrital as not being nasty.
We probably don't have the same basic values.

I wouldn't use the word "nasty" and it's obvious that lying and cheating are morally wrong, but Sekai has been doing it because she's in love with Makoto. Whether or not morals are involved, sometimes it's understandable why they would do such things when it comes to an emotion such as love. Which is the case here, at least for me. You don't have to agree with me because our opinions simply differ.

Like I said:

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

"All is fair in love and war."

Originally Posted by Akka

God, I can't even manage to be ironic about how you stickied to the bare letters while completely missing the spirit behind. I'm speechless...

Relax, I was merely using an example similar to yours. Because you made it sound like Sekai had no reasons to make her decisions regarding Kotonoha. It also made it look like Sekai was purposely callous towards her in which I really don't believe is the case.

[Akka]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

I wouldn't use the word "nasty"

Well, I would, and it's why I say we have different core value (or, at least, differently weighted).

I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't consider it worthy excuses - I see the effort required to clear things up is disproportionately small compared to the hurt it cause in others to excuse cheating in any way.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Akka

I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't consider it worthy excuses - I see the effort required to clear things up is disproportionately small compared to the hurt it cause in others to excuse cheating in any way.

I apologize if I come off as someone trying to make excuses for Sekai but I'm not. I'm simply stating that I can understand why she would do such things despite making bad decisions.

[ac195]

douchebag guy + psycho girl = nice boat... game over... try again.

[Dr. Casey]

Spoiler:

From MyAnimeLife.

Anyway, about episode eleven... was that twenty or so different names in the Contacts list for Makoto's cell phone? The sub I used didn't have any translations for that part, so I don't know what was going on there, or if that was even the list of contacts to begin with. I know that Makoto's count was at least six (Sekai, Otome, Hikari, three girls) and possibly eight (Assuming that he did it with Setsuna and Kotonoha after getting back together), but it would be... something else if there's also a dozen random, unseen girls involved.

[CoolKidsClub]

umm didnt Sekai use Kotonoha to get close to Makoto? she hooked them up because she wanted to get close to Makoto...with out Kotonoha, Sekai and Makoto would have nothing to talk about...

[BetoJR]

It isn't really all that hard for a cute girl to find something to talk about with a guy she's interested in, you know...

[willyvereb]

Actually without Kotonoha Sekai gets makoto and the deal is done.
And without Sekai Kotonoha would probably never hook up with Makoto.

But I thought it's common knwonledge...

AnywaysEven if Makoto do hook up with Kotonoha somehow(like he confesses in the last year mid-term or something like that) I doubt it can live for long. And I think Otome would make her move much faster than that.

[foxy12]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

I wouldn't use the word "nasty" and it's obvious that lying and cheating are morally wrong, but Sekai has been doing it because she's in love with Makoto. Whether or not morals are involved, sometimes it's understandable why they would do such things when it comes to an emotion such as love. Which is the case here, at least for me. You don't have to agree with me because our opinions simply differ..

That's exactly the reason why I pity Sekai a lot -she was doing everything out of her emotion -she LOVED mokoto so much and I do agree with you a bout the whole being in 'love ' but still -being in 'love' it's not an excuse because what if you end killing some one because of love ,that's not an excuse ,she still did wrong but comparin to the rest of them ,it's understandable because she loved Mokoto .She showed the most emotions 'guilt ,despair ...But everyone else was doing it because they wanted to have sex with Mokoto ,those other girls were way worst than him ,they gave it to him ,It wasn't just his fault ,He was being spolied but those other girls wanted sex ,why is no one blaming those girls ?.People say they hate Mokoto cuz he had sex but that not a good a reason because they all had sex and not just him .He's a guy after all ,He didn't rape anyone ,did he ? he didn't force anyone ,did he ? he didn't start this ,did he ? IT WAS THE GIRLS ,This show was more of lusting for one another ,No one had morals ,NO ONE ..I still hate Mokoto because he tortured those girls but it's thier fault as well ...it was the sex that made this anime go the way it did ..

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by foxy12

No one had morals ,NO ONE

How was Kotonoha immoral, out of curiosity? The ending of episode 12 aside (And even then, I wouldn't fault her that much - murder in response to a murder, that's fair enough).

[foxy12]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

How was Kotonoha immoral, out of curiosity? The ending of episode 12 aside (And even then, I wouldn't fault her that much - murder in response to a murder, that's fair enough).

I wasn't referring to Katanoha ..

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

How was Kotonoha immoral, out of curiosity? The ending of episode 12 aside (And even then, I wouldn't fault her that much - murder in response to a murder, that's fair enough).

Didn't Kotonoha sleep with (what's his name) Makoto's best friend?

Also, I don't believe in "an eye for an eye" because that would usually cause a bad situation to become worse. On top of that, Kotonoha ruined her life by killing Sekai (who also ruined her life.)

[foxy12]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Didn't Kotonoha sleep with (what's his name) Makoto's best friend?

Also, I don't believe in "an eye for an eye" because that would usually cause a bad situation to become worse. On top of that, Kotonoha ruined her life by killing Sekai (who also ruined her life.)

No ,she didn't .She was raped by that guy ,what was on that floor was blood actually .

http://i469.photobucket.com/albums/r...snap-93577.jpg

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by foxy12

No ,she didn't .She was raped by that guy ,what was on that floor was blood actually .

http://i469.photobucket.com/albums/r...snap-93577.jpg

I don't remember any raping going on in this series. The blood only proves that it was Kotonoha's first time having sexual intercourse.