2010-02-27, 15:26 | Link #5881 |
Shanacon/Ariafag
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: a room full of despair
Age: 34
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while I do wish Hata had throw more "Athena incoming" warnings that he did, that doesnt mean he didnt try, I mean...the closer we got to the EotW arc the more frequent the Athena flashbacks were...think about it, if EotW was on ch178...Hayate had flashback at ch145(?), 171, 177...the gaps were getting closer...and I believe that ch177 perfectly set up for the arc to begin, since Nagi's words were the catalyst that cause Hayate to have that dream again.
To be completely honest before EotW although enjoyable...the manga was starting to turn stale...I guess I just dont have stamina for 150+ chapters of random comedy before I start to lose interest...introducing Athena really helped me regain my interest in the series since I actually had something to look forward to in the future of the series. (their reunion) While its been a long break since pure comedy chapters I would gladly welcome them back, for me at this moment the manga is at its most enjoyable its been since...well...ever :\ Hata did a great job introducing us to so many great characters, so seeing them involved in actual developments is greatly satisfying
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2010-02-27, 16:20 | Link #5882 | ||||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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Save her, HELL YES ABSOLUTELY. Wine her, dine her, woo her? Not yet. Quote:
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What went well was the dilemma "save Nagi or save Athena". What also went well was the integration of the Hina tragedy/sacrifice. But at the moment (c262) we have a late-entry character (Athena) telling a story about secondary characters doing secondary things and trying to make us care about it. To be honest, I don't. At least not before it directly impacts Nagi and the others, and if that is so, I want her to be around. I want her to know about it, I want to see her REACT to it. If a story must be told to omniscient viewers to work, that's usually no good sign. Other example: The whole shebang about the "sword of justice" and blah: I couldn't care less about that back then. Why? Because it had no bearing on the main characters. So, dear Hata, if you REALLY want to force your Royal Garden storyline through, INTEGRATE THE MAIN CAST. NOW. I do NOT want this stuff to be told via Athena flashbacks showing secondary characters. There are much more interesting things to deal with now, IMHO. |
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2010-02-27, 17:04 | Link #5883 | |
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2010-02-27, 17:22 | Link #5884 | |||||||
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Chapter 88: She's used as a semi-comedic explanation for Hayate's "disinterest" in girls because of the way she "taught" him to be worthy of them. This is the appearance you're thinking of. Chapter 144: When Hayate explains that he's not good with girls, even the ones he likes, he remembers Athena getting angry with him. This is also probably the best hint that the original EotW was less dramatic and dark because there's no hint of swords and such, just her gesturing for him to leave. Chapter 172: The longest Athena flashback, culminating in Hayate's tears as he thinks about her. Strongly suggests his lingering feelings for her, and his desire to apologize to her for what happened. It's also worth noting, again, the image of her demanding him leave isn't as "dark", as it's the same one used in chapter 144. Chapter 177: Hayate is reminded of Athena by what Nagi says about being together forever. Those also happen to be the times when someone has been direct enough to ask Hayate how he feels about romantic relationships. If there's one thing Hayate has been, it's been totally consistent on this level. Thinking a girl is attractive and liking her as a person is not the same as being in love with her. It's worth noting that even in Hayate's nightmare of Athena comically killing him for being a flirt, his mind still has her say "even though you have me". Also, as an aside, since this is after she was introduced, in chapter 196, when asked about someone he'd want to romantically confess to, the only one that pops into his head is Athena. Quote:
The tragedy comes from the warmth it had. It wouldn't be a tragedy if nothing important had seemed to have been lost. Quote:
In every other romantic situation, Hayate has only been "being nice" and is completely ignorant of the romantic connotations, or only intellectually acknowledged the setting to be potentially romantic, or the contact is accidental and so he didn't have a choice in how to respond because he fell against the girl, or something along those lines. Here, he had to deliberately do what she asked in order to initiate that physical contact, so it was his choice. If he wasn't interested, he could have told her he didn't think it was appropriate. I don't think Hayate will ever be the "wine, dine, and woo" type. But more importantly, Athena seems to understand that, and reacts accordingly. That's what gives her the lead, at this moment. Quote:
As 2ch said, we could very well get dialogue like this: "I'm sure your mistress is waiting. Go back to her, and I'll see you when you get back to Japan." Hayate as he is right now, has a night off. That means, until morning, he's free to pursue what he wants to do most without duty getting in the way. At this moment, it seems like spending time curled next to A-tan as they reconnect is how he's chosen to spend it. Duty resumes in the morning, so I can't begrudge him his stolen hours to be a little bit selfish when we all know he'll be back with Nagi when the sun rises one way or another. Quote:
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In both those cases, it turns out the choice wasn't up to Hinagiku and Hayate to make. It wasn't an either/or between her and Ayumu. Hayate had his own agency and his own feelings, and anyone that truly loved him would have accepted that. Like Hinagiku did. Likewise with Nagi and her inheritance. It was actually her decision to make, not Hayate's. So she was the one that made it in the end. The narrative explicitly tells Hinagiku through her sister that her feelings for Hayate don't have to be requited in order to have worth. That's a really lovely message, I think. And it makes Hina into a better character. She's not tragic, she's just going through a tough spot. And since Hayate wasn't romantically interested in her, there was nothing for her to sacrifice. Quote:
Quite frankly, trying to bring in Hina or any of the other school members would seem much more forced at this point in time. Hinagiku's connection to Athena already seems forced and unnatural--made even moreso by her lack of reaction to someone she considered a close friend. I don't see how she could be brought into this arc. And if that goes for her, that goes doubly for the even smaller fry.
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Last edited by musouka; 2010-02-27 at 18:02. |
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2010-02-27, 18:49 | Link #5885 | |||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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And even denying the attribute "tragic" when the direct result of your help and efforts is that your own dream is seemingly crushed is a bit callous in my book. Moreover, except for Isumi nobody really knows what she did. Quote:
If a character loses his chance to be with the one they love as the direct result of saving him, that qualified as "tragic" in my book. The narrative of the story was explicit: "Do I want to be loved by you, or do I want to save you?" - and Hina chose "I want to save you". That _is_ sacrifice. Quote:
It only underlines what I said before: The EotW arc has usurped the old story and superseded the old characters sans Hayate. Once they are involved again and are in a position to influence the story again, I'll feel more at ease. But the more the omniscient reader's knowledge becomes desynched with the main characters' knowledge, the more problematic the storytelling gets. Last edited by Mentar; 2010-02-27 at 19:00. |
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2010-02-27, 20:01 | Link #5886 | ||||||
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Join Date: Nov 2003
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But that's what makes her human. She's not a super woman, she's a teenaged girl. Quote:
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Later on, the choice wasn't hers to make, because, again, love was never in the equation. She could have chosen to sit that one out, or chosen to help Hayate save Athena. Even if not for Hayate's sake, I certainly hope she would choose to save someone she, herself, said she had considered a very close friend. And it's a good thing she did, both times, but the love there wasn't hers to lose because she never would have gained it through her actions in the first place. Because Nagi can't know about Athena at this point in time, narratively speaking. Well, she could right now after the fact, but she couldn't have been allowed to know of Hayate's struggle between her and another girl because that would have been an end game arc. You want the manga to continue and get back to those fun Hakuou times? Then things can't move too quickly. This is a way of setting up future plot points without challenging the core of the series yet. In this respect, Hina played her part as being the one through Hayate was able to express his feelings for Athena in a dramatic enough fashion. So, why can't Nagi know? Because her knowing would change her character too much at this point in time, but this is still information that needs to be gotten across to the readers. It's also the way for Athena to gather the remaining questions her arc brought and answer them as best she can before the series can move on in this new direction, or take a quick break back in SoL land.
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2010-02-27, 23:36 | Link #5887 | |
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There are other examples of stories that started as love-comedies and end up going on a whole different direction. Has anyone read Hanaukyo Maid Tai? Fuck, the twist there was certainly something. I mean, suddenly there's some mindfuck. There's also a VN called Muv Luv, in which the first VN is just yoru typical dating sim, but the subsequent ones (which are direct sequels) are nothing like it. I guess it may be a similar situation with HnG. Hata originally wanted to do a particular type of storyline and it got rejected, but now that his manga is popular enough, he can take it (somewhat) in the direction he originally wanted.
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2010-02-27, 23:39 | Link #5888 | |
Shanacon/Ariafag
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: a room full of despair
Age: 34
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2010-02-27, 23:56 | Link #5889 |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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Haha... just wait until the Kyōto arc. That's when you go "OOOOOOOOH! What are you trying to pull here, Akamatsu? *wink**wink*"
Anyway, your reaction reminds me of that of a friend some weeks ago. He saw me reading HnG (the part when they were dealing with Midas), and he was like "Shit! I've got to read this." Then he sat on the other side of the table with his lapt... I mean, his manga volumes, and started reading. 10 minutes later he made this funny face and asked me "Mate, what the fuck is this?" Then I had to explain him what HnG was about. Even so, he ended up reading the whole thing and he's liked it. But anyway, back on topic, I wonder if Himegami and Hina's parents will be tied to all of this. I still want to know more about Hayate's Bro. Hell, knowing his name would be really nice. inb4 his name is Hayate and Hata starts using pime taradoxes FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
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2010-02-28, 03:27 | Link #5890 | |||||||||||
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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So, I'd rather expect the "Don't give up yet, hero!" line to remain in business. Otherwise, there would be no point in the elaborate scheme of hiding Hina's identity from Hayate either. Quote:
Sorry, but this is REALLY absurd. Self-absorption would imply that Hina would be fixated on herself, and interpreting whatever happens around her in terms of how it matters to _her_, and adjusting her actions accordingly. This is exactly NOT what Hina is about, it's the opposite: She consistently helps people not only without consideration of her own interests, but even knowingly _against_ them. If anything, this is one of those things which fuel my not-yet-overcome dislike of _Athena_. The scenes you're obviously referring to are those where Hina tries to come to terms with her own feelings. To understand what's making her tick. This isn't self-absorption, it's self-reflection and self-awareness. Especially since she is able to admit to herself negative results like "I'm jealous". Quote:
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Hina's altruism - the constant willingness to act to help the interests of others, even to the degree of consciously hurting her own - is what defines her as a character. It goes way and beyond anything else any character in the show save maybe Hayate is doing. And it's not merely limited to him (who was on the receiving end countless times already), but also Nagi, Ayumu, the terrible trio and others. Combined with the fact that she has the brains and brawns to make a difference, this is exactly what makes her the "hero". Quote:
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Hina is the only girl he can't touch without eliciting a strong reaction (and vice versa). For example, after saving Hina from falling off the cliff after the beachball tournament, they obviously both remained in a fairly compromising position for quite a while - and they knew that it was compromising, see their reactions after being addressed by Aika. In a nutshell, both instinctively trust each other in time of action, and they are very aware of each other in calmer times. There is ample groundwork laid by Hata to develop a romance if he feels like doing so (we're obviously not there yet), and there's also a visible trigger (learning that Hina has feelings for him contrary to his conviction) which may very well initiate a gradual change of heart. We'll see. Quote:
Let's skip this aspect. Your attempts to belittle Hina's efforts/sacrifices by claiming that it's all just a little normal teenager development isn't really convincing, but rather annoying me. And I doubt that what I wrote will change your mind either. Quote:
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First, level the playing field and then tell the background story in direct form. I do NOT want any kind of "secret mode", where the old cast is unaware of the "Royal Garden" subplot. It would feel like a terrible breach of trust in my book. Quote:
If Hata plans to end the show by hiding Hayate/Athena from Nagi, developing the Royal Garden sidestory with only select characters and then miraculously breaking the news to Nagi when she's "ready" for it in the future, then this might please the A-tan shippers. But I'm pretty sure I'm going to strongly resent it. If an Athena ending is to be, then only fought with an open visor. No other way. |
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2010-02-28, 05:46 | Link #5894 | |||||||||||||
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Join Date: Nov 2003
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She has her moments of weakness, but genuinely puts Hayate's happiness over her own. I don't see how that can be denied. Quote:
Again, that's normal. Sometimes I find that part of Hina really tiresome, but it's not an unnatural attribute to have. Quote:
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I don't think anyone has suggested that, least of all me. The information we're getting is involving mysterious figures like Hayate's brother, which will probably shine some light on aspects of the plot. We will probably get at least some sort of temporary resolution to the Athena/Hayate plot, but that's all. I think part of your problem is that you're viewing this entire thing as a love drama. I think the series is actually about family first and foremost.
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2010-02-28, 08:22 | Link #5895 | |||||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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Sorry, your attempted characterization is simply unfair. Hina consistently tries to do the right thing, and it's NOT always about her, and most definitely even fewer about her own wishes. Calling her of all people "self-centered" is silly. Quote:
Self-serving? She was answering Isumi's question, after she purposely drew her away to leave Hayate and Athena alone. Calling this act self-serving is so obviously absurd that it's staggering. It's not Hina who is self-serving, and who is wallowing in self-pity unless others save her behind. That's Athena's specialty. Quote:
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But let's look at Hina and Athena at the catharsis: Hina acts, because her first priority is undoubtedly to save Hayate. She had convinced Hayate first to see Athena, and now she's there to free his back, sending him to save Athena in the fight. At the end of the fight it pains her to see Hayate in Athena's arms, and she's crying over it. Yet, she does what she believes the right thing to do, and is drawing Isumi away to leave the two of them time for each other. Now Athena: She deeply regrets that she "always causes Hayate pain". So, to put an end to this, she wants to unsummon herself and King Midas to save Hayate and all the others (but then, she doesn't). In the middle of the battle all she can think about is about HER and Hayate, how she wants to touch him, but is afraid of hurting him again. But NEVERTHELESS... she wants to touch him. She wants to hear him call her name. "HAYATEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!" Athena is talking the talk, but ultimately sticks with what SHE really wants. Hina is walking the walk and ultimately goes with what she believes to be the right thing to do, even if it's the opposite of what she wants. Guess that's what's making Hina "cowardly" and "self-centered" (your words) Quote:
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Keep in mind, self-centered was the word _you_ picked out first. It describes EXACTLY what I dislike about Athena. She has the strong tendency to relate whatever happens to HER. I don't doubt that she's hurting over causing Hayate pain, but you don't read lines like "I'm sorry that I threw you out of your home", she says "I'm alone again... forever". She doesn't say "You must be hurting out alone", she says "It's all my fault, I broke it". If you still can't see it, I doubt you ever will. |
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2010-02-28, 11:50 | Link #5896 | |
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Location: France
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Well, it looks like Hayate and Hayate's Bro are two different characters. By the way, I do not consider A-Tan as a self-centered girl. Or if she is, IMO, Hinagiku and Nagi are just at the same level. Both considered her situation first, the way people will look at them (especially Hina). Both are very pround of herself and are such bad loosers. They are just little girls/teens moreover, they are in love, so, nothing very surprising for them to be like that In this chapter, A-Tan is just a lonely little girl in despair and crying. That is almost cruel to look at her as an egoistic character. And whatever, with such Moe, I forgive her everything On the other hand, there is a really altruist character: Isumi. And I was thninking about something: there are some people who should know a lot about the past. Isumi's mother and great-great mother, plus Wataru's mother. I like very much this new arc and the author made a good work to introduce it with a lot of reference during the previous chapter. I guess he changed his first mind on details, but the main facts make sense with the previous events. We still do not know how much about what kind of roles played Hayate's Bro, Nagi's mother, Himagami, Maria and maybe Hinagiku's father and mother played in the past. Something seems to me very disturbing. The way for two people to leave the Royal Garden looks difficult, and maybe some kind of sacrifice is needed ... That might explain why A-Tan refused to go with Hayate. And that might be also why HAyate's Bro is missing for ten years. We still have no idea how A-Tan has been locked into the Royal Garden. Was she the Gardian of the Power of Royalty? It seems absurd, because she is supposed to steal it together with Mikado and Himegami (and Midas). Was she punished for something? Probably, but by who? |
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2010-02-28, 13:09 | Link #5897 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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It's just not true at all. Neither Hinagiku nor Nagi lost a second to think "how are we looking when we do this?" - just reread the friggen scenes. Nagi's decision to break the stone was in chapters 252 and 253. It was quite an impulsive act, but also a very sweet one. "If this pebble is troubling you, then I don't want it." - "No! You're protected by your money, milady!" - "From now on, you can protect me!" (in its stead) Hina in c258 hears that Tennous-san is about to disappear from this world, that Hayate and Isumi have gone there. Hina: "Huh? Tennous-san will disappear?" Sakuya: "But from the looks of it, they might have failed. " Ginka: "But we can't go help them! There's too many of them!" Hina: (thinks) Hayate-kun... Tennous-san!!! Hina: "Then I'll go! I'll save Tennous-san and the others! So tell me exactly where they are!" Yea, lots of "considered their situation first" going on here. Bah. |
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2010-02-28, 13:29 | Link #5898 |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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I don't think that's what he meant by "look at their situation first," but that both of them have their own wishes as well. So, even so, they tend to measure what they want vs what others want. Personally, I'd say Hina is a very nice person but not that altruistic. In many cases, rather than altruism, I'd call it weakness in character, because even if she puts other people before herself, she still remains with doubts and regrets, and sometimes, the reason why she puts others' desires above her own, is because she simply hasn't the inner strength to express her own feelings, and/or she's afraid of hurting others.
It's similar with Nagi. What she did in this arc was definitely great. Seriously, that was one big sacrifice, but that begs the question, had she known who the person Hayate going to save was, what that person means to Hayate, and that Hayate doesn't see her the way she believes he does, would she have done it? Both girls are great, both of them love Hayate and both of them can do many things for him, but I wouldn't call them altruists myself.
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2010-02-28, 13:42 | Link #5899 | |
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Your idea of altruism is of a cheap kind: It seems to imply that it's only altruism if prioritizing the welfare of others doesn't really matter to you personally. I say it's a much better deed if you do realize that it hurts you but STILL do it. (Maybe it's my background of christian ethic at work here. But he who gives a small copper coin when he actually misses it does a greater good than he who gives a talent but doesn't really care about it) I don't know, guys, but it seems that you and me have some fundamental differences about selfishness. It almost seems that you rate it higher to be strongly and honestly selfish rather than being "weakly" non-selfish. Gives me a really queasy stomach, because this is something I happen to stumble across quite a bit in the US, and which I consider highly deplorable. |
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2010-02-28, 14:23 | Link #5900 | ||||||||||||||
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By your definition of "sacrifice" Athena has actually sacrificed much more than Hina did. After all, she was willing to sacrifice her life to take down Midas, right? Quote:
If it was just a matter of using Hayate to stave off loneliness, then her actions would have been very different. It's hard to use Hayate against loneliness if you're constantly pushing him away, wouldn't you think? Quote:
Aside from that, it was training. Athena was actually quite patient. He dropped a bucket of water on her head with no retribution on her part in any form, and she was also easy with her praise. That's especially important, because she was building Hayate's self esteem along with his body. It's sort of like how you only remember the part of the flashback where Athena talks about money, and never mention the part where she says a man must be both strong and gentle too. See, I don't remember EotW ever mentioning that being her motivation. Athena herself says her motive for teaching him swordfighting and such was teaching him "to believe in himself." It might be that she preferred a strong, gentle Hayate as opposed to a weak, cowardly Hayate, but Hayate himself agreed to take the role of her butler, so I would assume that also includes on the job training? No, she told him that he should just leave. She didn't expell him, but she did say something she shouldn't have. Also, she wasn't upset that he opposed her, she was upset that he didn't understand her. Quote:
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Nope, it was self-absorbed. Quote:
Athena has talked about how one of her goals was to save him from his parents, how she had searched for him in order to do that, meaning she was aware that he was in for pain when he left her. She even talked about how the thought of her own actions leading her to be unable to save Hayate makes her heart ache. So I don't think it's fair to suggest that she didn't spare a thought for Hayate's feelings about all this too.
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