(L+CR) Overlord Season 3

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

You're saying it like those lowly peasants have a choice. What can they do beside laying low if they still want to live? That kind of thing is still happening even in our world today (see North Korea). No one is innocent, yes, but that doesn't mean they deserved to be purged or enslaved.

Historically, tyrants and oppressive regimes were overthrown by lowly common men, through revolutions, it's not like there is no way for the people to dispose of the feudal system and put all evil nobles on the guillotine. And religiously, it's not that uncommon for gods to punish whole cities for their misdeeds. The logic here is someone living in a den of evil but still accepts bad things to happen right before his eyes without doing anything cannot to deem innocent.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

^ You do know that the "innocent"-part when we talk about "innocent people" were used very loosely and generally, right? Technically speaking, nobody in the world is innocent. Nobody. But there are those who are oppressed and forced to live with what they have. Yet here you are, keep on clinging on the strict definition of "innocent" and you look down on oppressed people because they don't put up a fight against the powerful iron-fist government that ruled them and can make them and their loved ones "disappear" anytime and anywhere. You look down on them to the point where you think people like them deserve the fate of whatever Nazarick has done to the civilians in the story. Again, sometimes, I really don't get such edgy POV. Though I doubt you dare to talk openly about such twisted POV to the masses or at least with your general average coworkers who aren't anime-fans.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

^ You do know that the "innocent"-part when we talk about "innocent people" were used very loosely and generally, right? Technically speaking, nobody in the world is innocent. Nobody. But there are those who are oppressed and forced to live with what they have. Yet here you are, keep on clinging on the strict definition of "innocent" and you look down on oppressed people because they don't put up a fight against the powerful iron-fist government that ruled them and can make them and their loved ones "disappear" anytime and anywhere. You look down on them to the point where you think people like them deserve the fate of whatever Nazarick has done to the civilians in the story. Again, sometimes, I really don't get such edgy POV. Though I doubt you dare to talk openly about such twisted POV to the masses or at least with your general average coworkers who aren't anime-fans.

Let me make my point clearer. The Kingdom's leadership is corrupted and evil, ok? Their citizens know it and accept it, ok? Then I think they can't blame anyone else when their corrupted leadership picks a fight with someone stronger, then gets defeated and those citizens themselves become collateral damages. Even if Ainz didn't arrive, the Empire will still annex the Kingdom in a next few years, causing countless deaths by pillaging and starvation. Historically, that's why people made revolutions, to prevent themselves and their loved ones from getting killed directly or indirectly by the corrupted government.

[moridin84]

Originally Posted by SolidN7

^This. Also Overlord follows "the might is right", so the morality in Overlord is unnecessary

Why is morality "unnecessary" in Overlord but is necessary in other stories, or even in real life?

Originally Posted by GreyZone

That's not quite accurate. The Kingdom and Empire are actually the exceptions that prove the rule:

The Kingdom only recently outlawed slavery and only because the princess is a (political and otherwise) genius, else it would never go through with the current state of politics... but that means before that it was a perfectly legal practise to have slaves and up until the beginning of the anime there are nobles that still complain about this change. It's to the extent that criminal groups like Eight Fingers keep it alive, because it's so lucrative of a business and considering Renner's age, it's pretty evident that Eight Fingers turned a legal practise into an illegal one quite fast and without any appearent issues, having slaves "being used" and also disposed off right in the middle of the capital. The fact that this could stay secret for so long and so easily right in front of the royal palace, means that there are enough people who accept it as "normal" that they could continue practising slavery so easily. Keep in mind that Renner also created other reforms which improved the general way of life in the entire kingdom and that before these, the situation was probably even worse.

The Empire was just like the Kingdom, but it only recently, through reforms, became a Meritocracy. The fact that the emperor became known for the flowing blood of nobles and his ruthlessness shows how insistent the nobles must have been to prevent the Empire from giving any chance to "lower class people". It was probably really, really bad before the reforms.

Then there is the Slane Theocracy which is a human supremacist nation and yet has no problem obliterating villages of innocent farmers and blaming another nation for it, all just to kill one strong guy from a nation that the theocracy could probably easily conquer, if it wanted to.

The other mentioned nations like the Holy Kingdom and the Council State probably have their own issues of humans/demi-humans killing/oppressing other humans/demi-humans as a common thing.

So what you are saying is, both the Kingdom and the Empire were worse places before but they are improving.

Or rather were.

Make no mistake. The New World is a horrible place. Not a single one of the nations would pass a test from a modern human rights comittee inspection. The Kingdom and the Empire are currently probably the best the New World has to offer.

Neither would Ainz and Nazarick.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by moridin84

So what you are saying is, both the Kingdom and the Empire were worse places before but they are improving.

Or rather were.

The Empire, yes. At least for the current generation. Not the Kingdom in the long term though, because it would be sooner or later annexed by the Empire. And on top of that both nations were willingly grinding down the peasant population of the Kingdom for their own territorial gain. The Kingdom did it to preserve their territory just for a few years longer, delaying the inevitable, while the Empire was chipping away the Kingdom's manpower for the eventual annexation of the Kingdom by the Empire. Both sides had no qualms to sacrifice the forcefully drafted farmers for these goals. It's anything but rosy. And again, these two are probably still the better nations among them all currently.

Originally Posted by moridin84

Neither would Ainz and Nazarick.

We know that their reign have less of the usual problems. The Sorcerer Kingdom will most certainly have much less problems with spying, corruption and succession fights (Ainz cannot die from old age) though and Enri along with Carne Village can serve as a role model for co-existence of different races. Nazarick is also vastly superior in terms of technology and can use golems and undead for much of the manual labor, not having to exhaust the farmers with overwork, so they have their advantages.
The only, but also quite strong, demerit, is the maliciousness of the likes of Albedo and Demi-Urge, but based on a spin-off, they are at least willing to leave people who are loyal to Ainz in peace, so in terms of morality they might end up being on a similar level as the current Empire at least, which is way above average in the New World.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

Let me make my point clearer. The Kingdom's leadership is corrupted and evil, ok? Their citizens know it and accept it, ok?

You mean like North Korea, which is ruling its people by fear? And you're saying the little people like the NK-civilians (who are forced to worship their leaders) deserve to be purged, enslaved and made into object of inhumane experiment by whichever nations that's able to defeat the Kim party? That certainly sounds disturbing as hell.

Also, it's not about who the peasants can blame. It's about a powerful fully-capable organization (like Nazarick) intentionally screwing the lives of decent helpless little people instead of letting them live their simple lives when Nazarick can easily purge the members of the government only and give the lowly harmless people a chance to live without fear. You know, like what Ainz did to Carne village (but without the guards)? Was that so hard?

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Also, it's not about who the peasants can blame. It's about a powerful fully-capable organization (like Nazarick) intentionally screwing the lives of decent helpless little people instead of letting them live their simple lives when Nazarick can easily purge the members of the government only and give the lowly harmless people a chance to live without fear. You know, like what Ainz did to Carne village (but without the guards)? Was that so hard?

You mean the lives that were already set for sure death in the upcoming annual wars anyway? Something that both sides are willingly keeping up despite knowing that the peasants are the only ones who'll suffer from this in the short term?

Ainz isn't Karl Marx who tries to "save the proletariat", you know.

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by Keila

For arguments sake, if the 'humans' of the new world weren't actually human, lets say they were some weird race of fish-like-beings. Would there be any debate or questioning of morality for what Ainz has done?

Spoiler for lets say they look like this:

.

If he sacrificed 70,000 of these fish creates to make the goats, would anyone bat an eye?

What if they were robotic life-forms? etc. Would the perception of good/evil change?

Originally Posted by eiyuuou

So if the kingdom were goblins and the empire were trolls, would you still complain?

Originally Posted by Keila

Because they're 'human like', or because he's effectively toying with another race?

If they weren't lizard men, but, weird rapist-like-tentacle-monsters that reproduce via inseminating 'hosts' (like the 'alien', from alien series, the black ones) you would feel exactly the same way?

Since you brought up this, I get curious and want to ask you a question: Do you still defend and justify Nazarick's actions if all of its NPCs are "weird rapist-like-tentacle-monsters"?

It's no coincidence that disgusting monsters like the cockroach guy have only a brief appearance while attractive characters like the maids have so much screen time.

Also, I really wonder whether people still go "sasuga Ainz-sama" if he is not a cool looking skeleton, but instead a zombie so gross that can make you puke.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

You mean the lives that were already set for sure death in the upcoming annual wars anyway? Something that both sides are willingly keeping up despite knowing that the peasants are the only ones who'll suffer from this in the short term?

Yeah. Why not? Nazarick can stop the annual wars by dissolving the corrupt governments and their bad ways if Nazarick's goal is to rule the entire land anyway.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Ainz isn't Karl Marx who tries to "save the proletariat", you know.

You don't have to be Karl Marx to have compassion.

[kari-no-sugata II]

This is my rough summary of how I see the morality in Overlord:

There's no perfect way to measure morality and so on though one of the more known and well referenced ones is the D&D method. By that measure most of the NPCs in Nazarick would fit into the "Lawful Evil" category, specifically the type that prioritises following orders over just about everything - they'd all kill innocent and good people if ordered to and most wouldn't hesitate at all. The vast majority don't give a damn about outsiders though some of them are pro-actively evil on top of that (eg Demiurge) and some are pro-actively kind on top of that (eg Sebas).

As for Ainz himself, I'd say he falls into the Lawful Evil category overall as well, though with a difference nuance to the NPCs since he's setting policy rather than following orders. Generally it could be said that what Ainz most cares about are his guild-mates and following from that the NPCs his guild-mates created and Nazarick. He cares about his general reputation to the extent that he doesn't want his guild-mates to hate him for what he's doing if he ever meets them. People in general have no value to him and he doesn't care about what race people are. People who are under his domain and in particular people who like/respect him and the guild have some value to him but in general he rarely sees people as more than tools and doesn't care about their viewpoit. Back at the start of S1, he was originally going to ignore what was going on in Carne village but he felt slightly indebted to Touch Me (having been saved by Touch Me in the past) and also wanted to use the occasion to conduct some experiments and learn some things. Overall, he's just about as capable of doing "good" as doing "evil" and what route he picks depends on which option (if any) will benefit him and his goals the most. As he says, he's very selfish.

As others have pointed out, the other nations could hardly be classified as "good" and the world is not a nice place. The people of Carne village feel loyal to Ainz because he saved them and asked for so little in return - something that would normally be extremely rare. They're somewhat willing to accept goblins and orcs if it helps increase their chances of survival as they know they have a precarious existence.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

You mean the lives that were already set for sure death in the upcoming annual wars anyway? Something that both sides are willingly keeping up despite knowing that the peasants are the only ones who'll suffer from this in the short term?

Ainz isn't Karl Marx who tries to "save the proletariat", you know.

The annual war would have killed a lot fewer people. And there's a world of difference between "not interested in saving the proletariat" and "killing them in the hundreds of thousands on a whim".

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The annual war would have killed a lot fewer people. And there's a world of difference between "not interested in saving the proletariat" and "killing them in the hundreds of thousands on a whim".

Less deaths on the battle field, yes. But more deaths in a long period of famine and starvation until the Kindom finally collapses, if things go according to the Empire's plan. And not just that. The lack of food and power struggle between the crown and nobles would lead to many other social problems and tragedies, robbery, banditry would roam the Kingdom, starving people would likely to resort to cannibalism, deadly diseases would spread from the corpses of starved people. In short, prolonging this war would just lead to more deaths and chaos. It may not be his intention, but Ainz ending this war is actually an arc of mercy to the Kingdom's people.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

Less deaths on the battle field, yes. But more deaths in a long period of famine and starvation until the Kindom finally collapses, if things go according to the Empire's plan. And not just that. The lack of food and power struggle between the crown and nobles would lead to many other social problems and tragedies, robbery, banditry would roam the Kingdom, starving people would likely to resort to cannibalism, deadly diseases would spread from the corpses of starved people. In short, prolonging this war would just lead to more deaths and chaos. It may not be his intention, but Ainz ending this war is actually an arc of mercy to the Kingdom's people.

Because you think all those dead won't have an economic impact on the Kingdom? Besides, since you apparently love that kind of stratagem, the Empire's plan was to invade the Kingdom when it was ripe. Not to let it devolve into complete anarchy.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Though I doubt you dare to talk openly about such twisted POV to the masses or at least with your general average coworkers who aren't anime-fans.

Honestly I just think he's still a kid going through the edgy phase, or at best deliberately playing devil's advocate and seeing how far he can get with it. If not, then I genuinely fear him because he is displaying ISIS-level extremist views.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Honestly I just think he's still a kid going through the edgy phase, or at best deliberately playing devil's advocate and seeing how far he can get with it. If not, then I genuinely fear him because he is displaying ISIS-level extremist views.

He's one of those people with a shallow understanding of utilitarianism that support it because it's easy.

[Keila]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

Since you brought up this, I get curious and want to ask you a question: Do you still defend and justify Nazarick's actions if all of its NPCs are "weird rapist-like-tentacle-monsters"?

Of course I would, I made that clear in my earlier statements.

Originally Posted by Keila

Maybe there's just something wrong with me, but if I had to fill Ainz's shoes in the scenario he finds himself to be in I'd pretty much walk the exact path he's taken.

+ He acts for the benefit of friends and family (i.e Nazarick)
+ Non-friends/family are defined by their value and merit (in relation to friends and family) but are otherwise treated indifferently unless they do anything that should have they judged otherwise

Nazarick itself (conceptually, and granted that its inception is to the exclusion of humanoids for the most part) filled with a variety of races with a unified goal/purpose (granted this is to serve Nazarick). Fundamentally all the 'Supreme Beings' though were still a collection of various races (and I'm fairly sure at least some of them could be classified as a tentacle monster) who co-existed within the framework of the guild.

The guild collective essentially amounts to Friends, Family and their Children (creations). In the 'real-world' this would fairly loosely reflect clans/tribes.


Even in the 'real world' (or at least real-world as gaming communities/groups go), would you not act for the benefits of your members? Would you even care about the individual traits of your members (assuming that membership itself always signifies that you 'pass/are satisfactory' means you're accepted and welcome).


Even if Nazarick was filled with nothing but "weird rapist-like-tentacle-monsters", as long as the members were acting for the good of Nazarick (and it fundamentally is Nazarick vs alien-world-they-have-not-yet-explored-or-fully-understand) I cannot fault them.

[moridin84]

Originally Posted by Keila

Nazarick itself (conceptually, and granted that its inception is to the exclusion of humanoids for the most part) filled with a variety of races with a unified goal/purpose (granted this is to serve Nazarick). Fundamentally all the 'Supreme Beings' though were still a collection of various races (and I'm fairly sure at least some of them could be classified as a tentacle monster) who co-existed within the framework of the guild.

The guild collective essentially amounts to Friends, Family and their Children (creations). In the 'real-world' this would fairly loosely reflect clans/tribes.

Even in the 'real world' (or at least real-world as gaming communities/groups go), would you not act for the benefits of your members? Would you even care about the individual traits of your members (assuming that membership itself always signifies that you 'pass/are satisfactory' means you're accepted and welcome).

Cersei in Game of Thrones has a line "what mother wouldn't do everything for her children" or something like that.

My first thought was "a goddamn lot". Since my mother wouldn't kill anyone (except by accident and in defense) for my sake, she wouldn't steal, she wouldn't commit crimes in general. If she did any of those things I wouldn't consider it to be admirable.

Cersei Lannister is what tribalism gets you.

You are free to believe whatever you want but most countries, even just large societies, have moved beyond tribalism into things like democracy or nationalism.

[Keila]

Originally Posted by moridin84

You are free to believe whatever you want but most countries, even just large societies, have moved beyond tribalism into things like democracy or nationalism.

Debating philosophical constructs (especially if it is trying to apply real-world examples with fictional worlds) isn't really going to be all that productive, but the argument that 'Trump' (and what he is doing for America) is not effectively tribalism?

+ America is (more or less) a democratic society
+ Trump has more or less instituted an 'us vs them' mentality in many of America's global engagements.


How is Trump any different to Ainz (as far as the anime has shown us)?

+ Both are leaders of their respective groups
+ Both take actions that (apparently) outsiders will question, but inherently those actions are taken (at least with the mindset) of being for the good of their group.
+ Both take actions that (fundamentally) screw over hundreds of thousands (if not more) without any regard for the other involved parties.


Obviously Trump hasn't gone and massacred a few hundred thousand people at this point in time, but I could imagine him doing so if it was for the 'good' of America and he wouldn't suffer any meaningful repercussions for it. For 'common sense' purposes this should be an unfounded fear (obviously), but all actions to date and expressed intentions by Trump have been 'for the good of America', no matter how much of the rest of the world doesn't agree with him.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Because you think all those dead won't have an economic impact on the Kingdom? Besides, since you apparently love that kind of stratagem, the Empire's plan was to invade the Kingdom when it was ripe. Not to let it devolve into complete anarchy.

Of cause those deaths will have an impact. It is to hasten the fall of the Kingdom so that Ainz can absorb it to his country, ending the nobles' reign of terror.
And do you know when it is ripe for the Empire to invade? They want an invasion with as less casualties on their side as possible, thus they should only invade when the Kingdom falls into total chaos. Any time sooner just doesn't make sense, since as long as the chain of command remain intact, the king and nobles will just conscript all peasants to fight back, resulting in massive casualties for the Empire's soldiers.

[moridin84]

Originally Posted by Keila

Debating philosophical constructs (especially if it is trying to apply real-world examples with fictional worlds) isn't really going to be all that productive, but the argument that 'Trump' (and what he is doing for America) is not effectively tribalism?

+ America is (more or less) a democratic society
+ Trump has more or less instituted an 'us vs them' mentality in many of America's global engagements.


How is Trump any different to Ainz (as far as the anime has shown us)?

+ Both are leaders of their respective groups
+ Both take actions that (apparently) outsiders will question, but inherently those actions are taken (at least with the mindset) of being for the good of their group.
+ Both take actions that (fundamentally) screw over hundreds of thousands (if not more) without any regard for the other involved parties.


Obviously Trump hasn't gone and massacred a few hundred thousand people at this point in time, but I could imagine him doing so if it was for the 'good' of America and he wouldn't suffer any meaningful repercussions for it. For 'common sense' purposes this should be an unfounded fear (obviously), but all actions to date and expressed intentions by Trump have been 'for the good of America', no matter how much of the rest of the world doesn't agree with him.

Yes, what Trump is doing is tribalism.

...I'm not going to say anything more because it would be off topic.