(L+CR) Overlord Season 3

[GreyZone]

Quote

Originally Posted by Endscape

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Actually, yes someone did. moridin84 essentially said that if a leader feels bad about mass killings of enemies on the battlefied then it's justifiable, but if not, then it's not justifiable.

I then countered that Ainz is unable to feel remorse or hesitation against an enemy as a side-effect of his undead body and/or the world transfer and that it essentially means that Ainz, unlike humans, is forbidden from mass killings on the battlefied due to his race, which is utterly ridiculous.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I then countered that Ainz is unable to feel remorse or hesitation against an enemy as a side-effect of his undead body and/or the world transfer and that it essentially means that Ainz, unlike humans, is forbidden from mass killings on the battlefied due to his race, which is utterly ridiculous.

Ainz is perfectly capable of feeling emotions, they just get dampened if they become too strong. The reason Ainz feels no regret or remorse is because he's a horrible person, it has nothing to do with him being an undead. I'd be wlling to bet that he would feel nothing even if had a human body. He's basically treating the world like it's a video game.

Even if he felt absolutely nothing at all, he spent most of his life with emotions, his own moral principles should tell him what is right and wrong. The fact that they don't tells me he never had any to begin with.

[Itlandm]

Actually, as Ainz is casting the spell that will kill tens of thousands of soldiers, he reflects on the fact that he should have felt bad about it but only feels curiosity about the outcome of the spell. So he is internally aware that this is not normal, but it doesn't change the way he feels, let alone stop him from going ahead with it.

(This is based on the anime, I have not read the LN.)

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Ainz is perfectly capable of feeling emotions, they just get dampened if they become too strong. The reason Ainz feels no regret or remorse is because he's a horrible person, it has nothing to do with him being an undead.

You know that is not truth. You had plenty of hints and statements regarding this issue even if you are an anime-only like me.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Itlandm

Actually, as Ainz is casting the spell that will kill tens of thousands of soldiers, he reflects on the fact that he should have felt bad about it but only feels curiosity about the outcome of the spell. So he is internally aware that this is not normal, but it doesn't change the way he feels, let alone stop him from going ahead with it.

(This is based on the anime, I have not read the LN.)

Exactly. Ainz was aware that something was off about himself from Episode 1 when he felt nothing about seeing people die. Yet, this didn't inspire any kind of self-reflection of any kind, he simply runs with it. This tells me that he didn't really care about it when he was a human either.

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

You know that is not truth. You had plenty of hints and statements regarding this issue even if you are an anime-only like me.

From what I've seen, it is the truth. If you believe otherwise, I'm willing to hear your argument for it.

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by Endscape

From what I've seen, it is the truth. If you believe otherwise, I'm willing to hear your argument for it.

You probably missed my reply and the following discussion regarding this topic but i already made my argument to you:

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

I don't agree with this. He not caring for humans is an undead trait. Undead hating the living is a common trope. In season 1 while looking at the massacre occurring in Carne's village, Ainz said that before being trapped in the game, he would almost faint if he saw blood or any of the other cruelties being displayed in the magic seeing mirror. So you can see there is a clear difference between personalities before and after. The only reason as to why Ainz is not killing any living being on site is because of his past human memories. Because an undead OP overlord would definitely not act like him, lore-wise. What we have is someone with a body programmed to destroy the mortal races with emotion suppression abilities, evil allignment and natural disdain for humans, but with an human mind. The mix between these two extremes creates current Ainz. A messed up combo and the reason why his character gives origin to so many discussions regarding his actions.

We have seen Ainz surprised with himself way too many times for not being able to feel empathy towards other people. He even say that not only his body changed but also his personality. He definitely was not like this when he was human.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

We have seen Ainz surprised with himself way too many times for not being able to feel empathy towards other people. He even say that not only his body changed but also his personality. He definitely was not like this when he was human.

I've already responded to this above.

If Ainz actually had any moral hangups about killing people when he was human, these would not have completely disappeared along with his ability to value life. He himself realizes that he has changed, and his response is to simply go along with it. No self-reflection, no attempt to control himself at all.

That tells me that he never felt anything about killing to begin with, he simply had neither the opportunity or guts to do it when he was Suzuki Satoru.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Endscape

I've already responded to this above.

If Ainz actually had any moral hangups about killing people when he was human, these would not have completely disappeared along with his ability to value life. He himself realizes that he has changed, and his response is to simply go along with it. No self-reflection, no attempt to control himself at all.

That tells me that he never felt anything about killing to begin with, he simply had neither the opportunity or guts to do it when he was Suzuki Satoru.

Completely wrong. In S1 EP3, when he did his first "kill", it was against mass murdering (fake) knights in armor, who were in the middle of obliterating a village and were just about to murder a young woman and a little girl in cold blood. When Ainz killed them he used slightly modified version of actions he took back when the only things he was "killing" were 0s and 1s on the YGGDRASSIL servers.

After the deed was done, he reflected on what just happened and concluded that he didn't have any emotional reaction toward the death of human beings and that he truly stopped being human.

To interpret "stopped being human" as "he did so even before the world transfer" is not really backed by any facts we know of.

There are two much simpler explanations:

1. Something happened to Ainz's mind when he tranfered to the other world and that made him unable to feel any empathy or sympathy towards enemies. It might be a side effect of mental status resistances/immunities he posseses. This is backed by the scene where he said that he doesn't feel affected by gore anymore, although as a human he was so sensitive to gore that he would have even thrown up.

2. Ainz subconsciously views any kills he does as PvE or PvP. So those he doesn't have much of a relation with are, to him, just any plain old NPCs, while he views those he has extensively communicated with as Player Characters, which would, by the way, also solve the mystery of why he can be so cold and business-like to some but becomes farily warm towards those who he took a liking to. They change from being considered NPCs to being considered PCs. The other two explanations (both yours and my first one) don't quite address this issue or handwave it away, so this explanation seems the most likely, but who knows.
There's also one more strong piece of evidence in the season finale which will also support this interpretation.


Compared to these two interpretations yours seems rather forced.

[Magin]

Damn, this thread is turning political... and I'm being dead serious when I ask this next question: how many of the posters here have ever watched/read Berserk? I suspect this is the first Dark Fantasy anime many in this thread have watched. I'm fine with everything that happens in the anime because Overlord is bright and cheery compared to what happens in Berserk.

But to comment on the episode itself... It Was Glorious. OP magic decimated thousands of troops, and the "goats"... that sound was hysterical. Do I feel bad for the humans? Yes, but I'll stop rooting for Ainz when we get a Good Human who even has an inkling of a chance against him... which won't be happening anytime soon. Till then, I'll enjoy the OP of the (even if super-evil) protagonists.

Although to engage a little in the mess that has become the rest of the thread... I would only stop rooting for Ainz and co if they took pleasure in what they're doing to the humans. Note that they are only taking pleasure in seeing their magic do what it's supposed to do- the exceptions being the crazy members that we only got brief glimpses of further down in Nazarick.

EDIT: Actually, I think the biggest question that is going to determine how many posters here feel about this anime is, Do you consider all the NPC's brought to life as humans, or still as NPCs? That's my take on every "game becomes Reality" anime: unless we get some development of them (see: most of the places Ainz has saved, and possibly the Workers, though I'm not going back into that can of worms), I still consider every character that's not Ainz an NPC that can be killed.

[Magewolf]

Originally Posted by Magin

Damn, this thread is turning political... and I'm being dead serious when I ask this next question: how many of the posters here have ever watched/read Berserk? I suspect this is the first Dark Fantasy anime many in this thread have watched. I'm fine with everything that happens in the anime because Overlord is bright and cheery compared to what happens in Berserk.

But to comment on the episode itself... It Was Glorious. OP magic decimated thousands of troops, and the "goats"... that sound was hysterical. Do I feel bad for the humans? Yes, but I'll stop rooting for Ainz when we get a Good Human who even has an inkling of a chance against him... which won't be happening anytime soon. Till then, I'll enjoy the OP of the (even if super-evil) protagonists.

Although to engage a little in the mess that has become the rest of the thread... I would only stop rooting for Ainz and co if they took pleasure in what they're doing to the humans. Note that they are only taking pleasure in seeing their magic do what it's supposed to do- the exceptions being the crazy members that we only got brief glimpses of further down in Nazarick.

EDIT: Actually, I think the biggest question that is going to determine how many posters here feel about this anime is, Do you consider all the NPC's brought to life as humans, or still as NPCs? That's my take on every "game becomes Reality" anime: unless we get some development of them (see: most of the places Ainz has saved, and possibly the Workers, though I'm not going back into that can of worms), I still consider every character that's not Ainz an NPC that can be killed.

They have independent wills and intelligence of there own and can feel pain, how can they be npc's? Actually in this case they were never npc's in the first place since this is not the game world made real it is an entirely different world. The only reason to think of them as npc's is to make it easier to excuse torturing them to death or eating them alive. The only npc like beings in this world are from Nazarick.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Magin

Damn, this thread is turning political... and I'm being dead serious when I ask this next question: how many of the posters here have ever watched/read Berserk? I suspect this is the first Dark Fantasy anime many in this thread have watched. I'm fine with everything that happens in the anime because Overlord is bright and cheery compared to what happens in Berserk.

Actually, I don't think that's the case, since many posters in this thread are veterans members and I have met them in other dark fantasy threads. I'm pretty sure they know what irredeemable sadistic villains can do a powerless population, like in Berserk, and should realize that how much lighter Overlord's theme is, compared to those series, thank to the existence of Ainz. But for some unknown reason, they still treat him like an irrational madman who kills for sake of it, ignoring all the contexts of the story.

[moridin84]

Originally Posted by pervypig

^ If I'm that guy's parent/sibling, why should I be disturbed about how many kids he rape as long as he put the bread on the table during a famine? Try rationalizing your arguments with some more context. The worst of sinners can be justified in the most extreme of contexts.

Most people would be disturbed if they discovered that their parent/child/sibling was a rapist.

He can't even use "putting food on the table" as an excuse for that because rape has nothing to do with that.

Perhaps you of thinking of someone that robs and kills other people to feed his family? Yeah, that's a bandit. Bandits are rarely good guys.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Actually, yes someone did. moridin84 essentially said that if a leader feels bad about mass killings of enemies on the battlefied then it's justifiable, but if not, then it's not justifiable.

Are you referring to "Someone willing to kill 100k people without a trace of remorse is a villain"?

I didn't say anything about whether the action is justified or not.

What I mean is that someone who kills over 100k people, personally, with complete and utter indifference is a villain.

Even if he is doing it for a good cause... there are plenty of villains that like that in stories.

I then countered that Ainz is unable to feel remorse or hesitation against an enemy as a side-effect of his undead body and/or the world transfer and that it essentially means that Ainz, unlike humans, is forbidden from mass killings on the battlefied due to his race, which is utterly ridiculous.

I'm aware of why Ainz is like this.

That's an explanation of his actions, not a moral justification. Which is what I am talking about.

Originally Posted by Magin

Damn, this thread is turning political... and I'm being dead serious when I ask this next question: how many of the posters here have ever watched/read Berserk? I suspect this is the first Dark Fantasy anime many in this thread have watched. I'm fine with everything that happens in the anime because Overlord is bright and cheery compared to what happens in Berserk.

The world of Berserk is worse but nobody is saying that the people doing bad things in Beserk are good peole.

Actually, I don't think that's the case, since many posters in this thread are veterans members and I have met them in other dark fantasy threads. I'm pretty sure they know what irredeemable sadistic villains can do a powerless population, like in Berserk, and should realize that how much lighter Overlord's theme is, compared to those series, thank to the existence of Ainz. But for some unknown reason, they still treat him like an irrational madman who kills for sake of it, ignoring all the contexts of the story.

Nobody is saying that.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Ainz is a horrifying monster even by NW standards. Yes, many messed up things are done by all the nations there, but unlike with Ainz, most of those messed up things were never done lightly or on a whim.

Not at all. Who did you think killed Enri's parents? And why did you think they did it? If you know the answer, you would know why I said what I said.

Ainz's actions are 100% in line with NW sensibilities.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Completely wrong. In S1 EP3, when he did his first "kill", it was against mass murdering (fake) knights in armor, who were in the middle of obliterating a village and were just about to murder a young woman and a little girl in cold blood. When Ainz killed them he used slightly modified version of actions he took back when the only things he was "killing" were 0s and 1s on the YGGDRASSIL servers.

After the deed was done, he reflected on what just happened and concluded that he didn't have any emotional reaction toward the death of human beings and that he truly stopped being human.

To interpret "stopped being human" as "he did so even before the world transfer" is not really backed by any facts we know of.

There are two much simpler explanations:

1. Something happened to Ainz's mind when he tranfered to the other world and that made him unable to feel any empathy or sympathy towards enemies. It might be a side effect of mental status resistances/immunities he posseses. This is backed by the scene where he said that he doesn't feel affected by gore anymore, although as a human he was so sensitive to gore that he would have even thrown up.

That doesn't explain why Ainz, despite realizing himself that he's changed, makes no effort to try to modify his behavior to something more in line to what it was

2. Ainz subconsciously views any kills he does as PvE or PvP. So those he doesn't have much of a relation with are, to him, just any plain old NPCs, while he views those he has extensively communicated with as Player Characters, which would, by the way, also solve the mystery of why he can be so cold and business-like to some but becomes farily warm towards those who he took a liking to. They change from being considered NPCs to being considered PCs. The other two explanations (both yours and my first one) don't quite address this issue or handwave it away, so this explanation seems the most likely, but who knows.
There's also one more strong piece of evidence in the season finale which will also support this interpretation.

Compared to these two interpretations yours seems rather forced.

I already mentioned that Ainz treats this world like a video game. However, from what we've seen, he seems to acknowledge that the NW people are real, he simply doesn't treat them that way, which brings me back to my original point.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Not at all. Who did you think killed Enri's parents? And why did you think they did it? If you know the answer, you would know why I said what I said.

Ainz's actions are 100% in line with NW sensibilities.

Even in the NW, there are very few people that would kill 110,000 not for any military goal, but simply to play with his summons, and then ask for applause during the slaughter, and people of that ilk, like Khajit, are hardly treated like moral examplars.

The reactions of the Imperial troops tell us that what Ainz did is not normal moral behavior in the NW.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by moridin84

Nobody is saying that.

I referred to this post:

Originally Posted by Sixth

Side A: Ainz is an evil hypocrite egomaniac lying monster who kill people for his amusement.

[The 48th Ronin]

Originally Posted by moridin84

The opposing argument is

- Ainz is not evil or perhaps there is no such thing as "evil" in the context of Overlord

"Evil" is always subjective. Ainz is evil to his enemies, but good to his allies.

Originally Posted by moridin84

- Ainz goal is noble

To the Nazarick denizens, yes. But to humans of NW? It's a mixed bag.

Originally Posted by moridin84

- All Ainz's actions are morally justified

It's been clear for a long time that his priority is Nazarick's interest. Everything else is secondary. Morality has no place in geopolitics.

Originally Posted by moridin84

- Ainz will create a utopia and rule over it as an perfect immortal God-like existance

Where in the hell this came from? The original plan was to "spread Ainz's name to the whole world" because he wanted to find other Yggdrasil players in the NW. There'll be some conquest, yes but the core of the plan still remains.

That said, it's been a while since I read the novels, so I might be wrong on some parts.

[GreyZone]

Previews are finally available.

EP 13 "PvP" preview



EP 13 "normal" preview

EP 13 "special" preview

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by The 48th Ronin

Where in the hell this came from?

Read all of Fwarlord's posts. That's where it came from.

[pervypig]

Originally Posted by moridin84

Most people would be disturbed if they discovered that their parent/child/sibling was a rapist.

He can't even use "putting food on the table" as an excuse for that because rape has nothing to do with that.

Perhaps you of thinking of someone that robs and kills other people to feed his family? Yeah, that's a bandit. Bandits are rarely good guys.

Read what I have stated in context of my statement 'in a famine'. Geezus, I've been emphasizing context in all my quotes, but since it's an online forum, nobody really gives a dam, so yeah...

You might say that 'bandits are rarely good people' in the context of your values; but I can again show you that they are often painted in good light, ironically in today's context. Take the legendary Dick Turpin: Honorable Thief. The real Richard Turpin was a poacher, burglar, horse thief and killer after joining the Essex Gang in UK, and only reason why he inspired so much romance later years was because he bowed to the crowds there to witness his hanging.

Somehow, as our society become more polarized between upper and lower classes, a bandit convicted for murder becomes a hero.

While I let you digest the above, I can give you yet another illustration: all 108 'heroes' in the famous 'Water Margin' (one of the 4 most famous books in Chinese Literature) are bandits: Wu Siong killing more than 40 in a household whose head was about to betray him, Sun Er Niang chopped innocent passers-by of her inn into meat buns, etc. And yes, these are all folk-heroes in China. Yeah, remember Cao Cao being a monster for being a 'cruel tyrant'? That's the same 'rotten' land where that come from...

Are the values of Chinese any worse off than Europeans? Are the Asians monsters for not embracing Western values of materialism and capitalism? Are Africans backward for their tribal values? Taken into context, the only conclusion that I have ever landed upon is that 'humans are fickle'.

If it makes you more comfortable, just think of Overlord as a satire of modern international conglomerates where the incumbent leaders (i.e. Ainz) are usually clueless about what's going on entirely in their organizations, but rip all the credits and benefits from it due to their highly efficient machinery and subordinates (i.e. Narzarick).

[eiyuuou]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes, so ideally the Empire would attack when big chunks of the Kingdom can surrender more or less without a fight, and order can be maintained afterwards without too much trouble. Not when everybody's dead and there's nothing of value left..

why do you think the empire only committed a smaller portion of his troops and conducted small skirmishes over the years? It is to ensure the peasants have enough numbers to revolt since they are the bulk of the kingdom's army.
the chunks can be any number left over after eliminating the redundant kingdom nobles. even using 100k peasants as a sacrifice, there would still be more than 100k peasants left over to be used and not counting the ones left behind.

the fact the empire is using undead as laborers is to free up manpower to increase their military might.


..

Yeah, and? That's like saying North Korea isn't innocent, so we can nuke its civilian population centers guilt-free. That's not how it works. ..

with north korea launching its own nukes in response and you getting condemned by every other nations out there. Perhaps even including launched missiles by paranoid leaders against your country? brilliant idea you have there.
your tactics have wiped your people from the face of the world. please try again.

Originally Posted by Yan3242

Can i go with side C? Ainz is evil for the one who didnt know or oppose him, but he is fair and caring for anyone on his side.

Pls dont kill me, this is just how i think of ainz after 2 season

Side A-1, remnants of side A, thinks ainz should be the pious holy roman empire emperor, regretting his actions to kill and whatnot, while staying silent on the other two king/emperor. when some of them doesn't even watch the anime or skimmed through them, I'm not even sure if they even realize many empires of sufficient size are often build on blood or with blood.

Side A-2, remnants of side A, thinks humans are gods with the right to determine the value of pigs and whales as worthy or not, thus anything ainz does against the interests of humans is evil. while staying silent against anything humans did to others.


except evil is entirely subjective. A man can be a loving father to his children, a good confidant to his friends, a good companion to his pet dog, and steps on ants and bugs without remorse and shoots his enemies without regrets.
Ainz is a loving father to his NPC, a good confidant to his guild mates, a good(?) companion to hamsuke and sees outsiders as "bugs", even comparing invaders to maggots on food as unwanted and there is no reason to let them go.

Side B-1 are likely LN readers so they know what ainz is planning and doing later, hence their attitudes are softer towards ainz's actions. unfortunately, (~spoilers~) so I cannot say anything to them.

Side B-2 thinks ainz is acting in greater interests for the new world.
in nazarick, a merciful death is a mercy to end all suffering, what more can I say. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Side C says ainz cares about the insiders and is unfriendly to outsiders and most things ainz did isn't exceptional to what has been done in NW.

if the kingdom was not corrupted to the core, the two months they spent raising troops, they could have easily sent a less idiotic person to investigate carne village.
if the king was wiser and gave up e-rantel, the whole farce would have ended and trip the prince to faceground himself.
ep 13, gazef around lv 30(Hero level) vs ainz lv 100 with High Tier Physical Immunity III, Slashing Damage Resistance V and Piercing Damage Resistance V.
unless ainz gimps himself, it's not even a pvp.