Macross Delta - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[magnuskn]

Comparing Ranka and Freyja is a bit more difficult, since both got a lot of development at this point in their respective shows.

But if we then put equivalencies to Alto/Hayate and Sheryl/Mirage, it becomes pretty clear that at this point in Frontier and Delta both Alto and Sheryl had gotten way, *way* more development than their counterparts.

What do we know about Hayate? What do we know about Mirage? We only got the most barebone backstories about them and at least in case of Mirage, only the smidgen of a character motivation. Hayate isn't great shakes, either, in regards to his actual motivations.

Alto at this point was already established as a very driven character, who got shit from all his peers about his past as a kabuki actor, got his personal motivation questioned constantly and had a clear goal, i.e. "protect Ranka" (even though we later learn that he mostly was using that to subliminate his need to protect his home vs. his feelings of being trapped on Frontier).

Sheryl had her backstory of being an orphan teased to us and her entire attitude of "never give up" is what gave great motivation to both Alto and Ranka. Since at this point in the story she just had ended up permanently on Frontier (since Macross Galaxy was reported lost), her character goals for the series were still being put together, but episodes five and six still gave her (and Alto and Ranka) great character development.

I think what mostly confounds me about Delta is that I can't find a character I really want to watch every week (well, there's Mikumo, but she is way too much in the background to carry the show). At this point in Frontier, I was completely sold on Sheryl and Alto and also Ozma, Bobby, Michel and Klan.

[Darthtabby]

^Don't lie. Regardless of what you may have thought of her later on, you know you were totally behind Ranka at this point in Frontier.

[magnuskn]

Eh, I wasn't *against* her, but she lagged behind Sheryl and Alto. I was already annoyed at Nanase, though. ^^

I did completely turn against her later on, of course.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

To explain my take on Delta vs. AKB0048 - I much prefer Delta's character design philosophy. In other words, Walkure literally looks cooler and more appealing to me than the AKB0048 idols do. I prefer Delta's art-style and idol costumes.

I actually like Delta's designs better too. Doesn't mean it does the magical idol thing better than 00 though.

Also, I like the focus on precisely five magical idols instead of a focus on a large group of somewhat random people trying to become idols.

If all five idols got focus, my opinion might be different. That's not the case though. We barely know anything about Kaname, Makina and Reina (and Mikumo, but she's meant to be mysterious so that's okay for now).

At the end of the day, Delta is a Macross show. Idols are important, but it's not an idol series. It would never beat 00 at its own game.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

What other series have done Mahou Idols better, in your opinion? AKB0048? Symphogear?

I've watched some of AKB0048, and while I see why some like it a lot, I can honestly say I prefer Delta. Symphogear is an excellent show, but the idol side of things is just barely there, really. When it comes to actual music idols that can do seemingly magical things, I've never seen any anime characters as fun and entertaining as Walkure is.

If we talk about the classic that pave the way to Mahou Idol subgenre, there’s Creamy Mami in the 80s that did a really good job with the premise as a kid’s show. If we talk about a magic-assisted idol with a really good story and drama, we have Full Moon o Sagashite (manga/anime). From the limited episodes I’ve seen, AKB0048 is also better for me due to its focus on the idols and their rise and roles as either heroines (to the people) or terrorists (to the government). Their purpose and goals are clearer and the narrative is not bogged down by the need to flesh out another set of protagonists who are not idols. The similar reason also applied to Symphogear because the “Mahou Singers” get more focus there as they’re the ones who did both the singing and the fighting so their screentime don’t have to be shared with non-singer protagonists with their own set of plot.

Those are the qualities that I see them being better than what Delta did with the Walkure. But if cool-look and modern character designs are the only things that you're after then I guess Walkure is pretty much up there.

Also, I agree with Kazu-kun's points above.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Well said Triple_R...

Both Hayate and Freyja have grown alot in short amount of time it's hard not to be impressed with their development so far.

Freyja really did come into her own by the end she now knows for certain what she is singing for and it'sthe same as Hayate to put an end to this war. Noble and Heroic is the only way I can describe it.

Mirage however...needs some work. Hell they shouldn't really have been doing something with her character before Messer anyway being part of the main love triangle and all.

Freyja seems to have found her resolve and purpose now. This likely means that we'll see a shift over the Mirage side now to see her development.

[aldw]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Freyja seems to have found her resolve and purpose now. This likely means that we'll see a shift over the Mirage side now to see her development.

Yeah, glad to see Freyja find her footing here, and Mirage's can't come soon enough. As for the scumbag brigade (especially Bogue), they really do need a missile in the face.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I actually like Delta's designs better too. Doesn't mean it does the magical idol thing better than 00 though.

It's certainly an important edge. It's a factor worth considering. Aesthetics are a big part of being a J-pop idol. They're also a big part of being a magical girl. J-Pop idols and magical girls both tend to wear very flashy outfits. Outfits that are intended to capture attention, and the viewer's imagination. Walkure does that magnificently for me.

If all five idols got focus, my opinion might be different. That's not the case though. We barely know anything about Kaname, Makina and Reina (and Mikumo, but she's meant to be mysterious so that's okay for now).

I disagree. We know plenty about Kaname, Makina, and Reina. Walkure as a whole have received plenty of good focus so far.

Here are two posts of mine that delve substantially into what we know about Walkure. In addition to what I wrote there, we know that Makina is a good and well-liked mechanic, and we know that her and Reina were actually like oil and water at first, before developing a very tight bond between them.

There's plenty here in order to like and care about these characters, in my view.

At the end of the day, Delta is a Macross show. Idols are important, but it's not an idol series. It would never beat 00 at its own game.

Idols are a big enough part of Delta that I would consider "idol series" at least a secondary genre for the show. I also know a very hardcore Macross fan that insists that Macross is an idol series.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

If we talk about the classic that pave the way to Mahou Idol subgenre, there’s Creamy Mami in the 80s that did a really good job with the premise as a kid’s show. If we talk about a magic-assisted idol with a really good story and drama, we have Full Moon o Sagashite (manga/anime). From the limited episodes I’ve seen, AKB0048 is also better for me due to its focus on the idols and their rise and roles as either heroines (to the people) or terrorists (to the government). Their purpose and goals are clearer and the narrative is not bogged down by the need to flesh out another set of protagonists who are not idols. The similar reason also applied to Symphogear because the “Mahou Singers” get more focus there as they’re the ones who did both the singing and the fighting so their screentime don’t have to be shared with non-singer protagonists with their own set of plot.

So one OVA series from the mid-80s, one long anime series from 2002/03, and two relatively recent shows, with one of them being more "magical singers" than "magical idols" as you yourself admit. That's pretty slim pickings. It's certainly slim enough to consider Delta and its Walkure to be both very rare and hence special. It's perfectly legitimate for someone to hold that mahou idols makes Delta stand-out.

And I strongly disagree with your criticisms of Walkure. I don't see any lack of clarity in the purposes and roles of Walkure. Fighting Var and healing those afflicted with it is a very clear purpose/role of Walkure. And it's a good and admirable purpose/role.


I completely reject the idea that Macross Delta's narrative is being "bogged down" just because of the variety within the protagonist cast. Frankly, I find that a depressingly defeatist approach to fiction in general. Variety is the spice of life!

But if cool-look and modern character designs are the only things that you're after then I guess Walkure is pretty much up there.

I really don't appreciate your dismissive snark here. This is largely because I very recently made a point to be very understanding of your criticisms of the mecha designs in Kuromukuro.

How is my favoring Delta's mahou idol designs over AKB0048's any different than you disliking some of Kuromukuro's mecha designs? Both of these come down to aesthetic preferences. If mecha design aesthetics matter to you, then it shouldn't be hard to respect how mahou idol character designs matter to me or any other viewer.

That being said, "cool-look" is far from the only reason I like Walkure a lot.

[Tak]

Now that we all have a chance to vent about Delta...

So yes, Delta's character development had been underwhelming. Yes, for many members, this show inevitably drew comparison to Frontier. And yes, Frontier was in many ways, defined by its intensive triangle and fierce character interactions. It also gave us exceptionally strong characters. After all, who else but Sheryl could adorn the grips of my beautiful 1911? Furthermore, for those who had been on the Frontier bandwagon would remember the very emotional exchanges on this very forum. Let us recall some history shall we?

The opening of a Romance Thread soon turned into a brawl, and this incident would forever cement the pages of internet history as one of the most vicious shipping war in living memory. Billions of brain cells died needlessly on a virtual battlefield.

The second attempt at a revised Romance Thread did not fare better, and an all out war continued until the end of the second Frontier movie. Trillions of brain cells would lose their will to live in the aftermath.

As if the two catastrophes weren't enough, a third Continuation War followed, and would not cease until the end of 2013. An additional billions of brain cells called it quits.

And you wonder why the mods aren't opening another Romance thread?

Yeah, Frontier was imo, not a show to be enjoyed casually.

Thus came Delta. All the sudden the show presented us with a whopping 15+ characters right off the bat. At that point, you and I both realize that some characters will take the backseat, and the character developments/interactions of Delta would be less intensified compared to Frontier, which became a blessing of sorts. I am not going to lie, I was deep down hoping for a less gut-wrenching experience. Delta would prove to be a show I could casually enjoy without wrestling against my emotions and the emotions of others.

What Delta gave me that Frontier lacked was world building. This is probably a Macross series dedicated to its worlds and lore. I thought it was about time we experience Macross from a different angle. Yeah, I know not everyone agrees with this approach, but I find it rather enjoyable. Lets face it, the world of Delta is colorful and full of life. After 8 episodes, I have yet to experience a dull moment.

Not excusing Delta's apparent lack of character development of course, but this show is moving at a brisk pace without many burdens we find & experienced in Frontier. In a way, I must say, I quite like it...

- Tak

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Tak

Now that we all have a chance to vent about Delta...

Plenty of people are loving this show. Plenty of viewers have no need to vent. I know some AS members that are loving this show, but just aren't posting here much.

So yes, Delta's character development had been underwhelming.

I disagree. I don't see anything underwhelming about it. I find Hayate's development largely compelling and I find Freyja's development very compelling. I also don't see any "apparent" lack of character development in general. Certainly nothing worth mentioning for Episode 8 of a show that will run two cours or longer. This show's character development has in fact been very good considering the size of its protagonist cast and the fact that we're only at Episode 8.


I agree with you on how Delta's world building has been pretty strong so far. And yes, Delta is colorful and full of life.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So one OVA series from the mid-80s, one long anime series from 2002/03, and two relatively recent shows, with one of them being more "magical singers" than "magical idols" as you yourself admit. That's pretty slim pickings. It's certainly slim enough to consider Delta and its Walkure to be both very rare and hence special. It's perfectly legitimate for someone to hold that mahou idols makes Delta stand-out.

There’s also this “little title” called Sakura Wars (based on the SEGA’s longtime Sakura Taisen game franchise) as an excellent example of Mahou Idol series in a steampunk setting. You see, the girls in SW might not have magical transformation, but they use their magical/spiritual powers to control their mechs (called Koubu) to protect their city from demons. The girls do their operation under the guise of a theater called Grand Imperial Theater where the girls are the stars. They act, sing and dance there performing in front of huge audience every other night or so. The reasoning behind this was both spiritual and mental: songs and dances were considered to be traditional methods that could suppress evil, and the stage was likened to a battlefield where self-confidence is built, basically also exercising their spiritual powers. The characters are lovable and have great designs. The squad is called Tekoku Kagekidan IIRC, and despite having a guy as the girls’ squad leader (Ohgami), that doesn’t make the anime into a harem as the focus and heart of the story is still with the girls. Their operation and methods are well defined within the story since they are backed by the Government against demons that is lead by mysterious sect. And did I already mention that they ride their own mechas too? Sweet, right? Overall, SW is a great Mahou Idol anime. Definitely one of the finest (if not the finest).

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I completely reject the idea that Macross Delta's narrative is being "bogged down" just because of the variety within the protagonist cast. Frankly, I find that a depressingly defeatist approach to fiction in general. Variety is the spice of life!

I'd say, a show that focus on certain specific thing tend to be better at that specific thing compared to a show that divide its attention to two or three different things. But that's just me.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I really don't appreciate your dismissive snark here. This is largely because I very recently made a point to be very understanding of your criticisms of the mecha designs in Kuromukuro.

Snark comment? You yourself who said that you put Walkure on top due to their looks and you clicked more with their style:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

To explain my take on Delta vs. AKB0048 - I much prefer Delta's character design philosophy. In other words, Walkure literally looks cooler and more appealing to me than the AKB0048 idols do. I prefer Delta's art-style and idol costumes.

I'm basically just reiterating what you said. There's no snark there. If cool-look is your priority in comparing Delta with other Mahou Idol series then so be it.

Also, in Kuromukuro, I only criticize the boring designs of the assistant-mechas as a side note, while I really enjoy the rest of the show. I'm not judging a whole show based on how the robot looks.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Plenty of people are loving this show. Plenty of viewers have no need to vent. I know some AS members that are loving this show, but just aren't posting here much.

And plenty of detractors. Personally, I like this show, and I can't emphasize that enough, but thats me.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I disagree. I don't see anything underwhelming about it. I find Hayate's development largely compelling and I find Freyja's development very compelling. I also don't see any "apparent" lack of character development in general. Certainly nothing worth mentioning for Episode 8 of a show that will run two cours or longer. This show's character development has in fact been very good considering the size of its protagonist cast and the fact that we're only at Episode 8.

Its underwhelming because people aren't up at arms about Delta characters here. Now, is underwhelming necessarily bad? As I have stated, not at all, but compared to Frontier in the front of character developments/interactions? There is a significant gap.

- Tak

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's certainly an important edge. It's a factor worth considering. Aesthetics are a big part of being a J-pop idol. They're also a big part of being a magical girl.

That you (and me too to so extent) like Delta's character designs better doesn't mean they are actually better than 00's. It's a matter of taste. 00's do the job just fine. In fact, they look quite a bit more "magical" than Delta's thanks to some details like the hearts on their hair and eyes. Also, the kirara (those little critters that follow the idols) remind you of the magical pets from mahou shoujo shows. Delta has nothing like that.

J-Pop idols and magical girls both tend to wear very flashy outfits. Outfits that are intended to capture attention, and the viewer's imagination. Walkure does that magnificently for me.

It's funny you mention the outfits. 00's outfits are based on real-life idol outfits. Of course they use the same holo-tech you see in Delta, but they're still fairly reminiscent of the real thing. That helps to give the show a little touch of "realism" despite the wacky premise and setting.

I disagree. We know plenty about Kaname, Makina, and Reina. Walkure as a whole have received plenty of good focus so far.

Here are two posts of mine that delve substantially into what we know about Walkure. In addition to what I wrote there, we know that Makina is a good and well-liked mechanic, and we know that her and Reina were actually like oil and water at first, before developing a very tight bond between them.

As characterization goes, that's all skin-deep. I'm talking about motivations, backstories, personal conflicts. We got a 5-second flashback for Makina and Reina that barely scratches the surface of their backstory, and none for Kaname. We know nothing of their motivations either, let alone personal conflicts. By episode 8, all the key players of 00 first season were pretty well developed (Chieri, Nagisa, Kanata and Takamina). The only idol Delta has delved into to that extent is Freyja.

Additionally, a lot of the characterization and dynamics going on in 00 is inspired by the lives of real-life idols. That's why I always say 00 has the most true-to-life idol characters in anime despite the show's crazy plot.

And just to be clear, I'm not criticizing Delta. The worst it could do is try to be more of an idol show than it should be.

[Darthtabby]

I can't really take credit for noticing this since someone else drew my attention to it, but there is some rather odd stuff going on with Mikumo's hair this episode...

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[Deryns]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Comparing Ranka and Freyja is a bit more difficult, since both got a lot of development at this point in their respective shows.

But if we then put equivalencies to Alto/Hayate and Sheryl/Mirage, it becomes pretty clear that at this point in Frontier and Delta both Alto and Sheryl had gotten way, *way* more development than their counterparts.

What do we know about Hayate? What do we know about Mirage? We only got the most barebone backstories about them and at least in case of Mirage, only the smidgen of a character motivation. Hayate isn't great shakes, either, in regards to his actual motivations.

Alto at this point was already established as a very driven character, who got shit from all his peers about his past as a kabuki actor, got his personal motivation questioned constantly and had a clear goal, i.e. "protect Ranka" (even though we later learn that he mostly was using that to subliminate his need to protect his home vs. his feelings of being trapped on Frontier).

Sheryl had her backstory of being an orphan teased to us and her entire attitude of "never give up" is what gave great motivation to both Alto and Ranka. Since at this point in the story she just had ended up permanently on Frontier (since Macross Galaxy was reported lost), her character goals for the series were still being put together, but episodes five and six still gave her (and Alto and Ranka) great character development.

I think what mostly confounds me about Delta is that I can't find a character I really want to watch every week (well, there's Mikumo, but she is way too much in the background to carry the show). At this point in Frontier, I was completely sold on Sheryl and Alto and also Ozma, Bobby, Michel and Klan.

You know, I was trying to figure out what my issue with this Macross series is, as I generally enjoy them a lot and this post sums it up nicely. Delta has given good fight sequences and music but little else. Your comparisons on the characters is right on. Introducing Walkure and Delta Squadron all at once was alot to try to setup. To me, other than maybe episode 6, Hayate and Mirage have basically just shown up on screen. Messer has gotten his sickness/rival storyline. All the rest have barely been mentioned. The Windermere and their takeover story is at least different from Frontier in that they are given names and a motivation. Very little depth. Delta feels more like Freyja's story than anything else.

[Darthtabby]

While I wouldn't call the Windermerean antagonists all that deep at this point, I at least get the impression there are varying perspectives among them (the twins accompaniement of Bogue notwithstanding).

[ippus]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The apple thing might seem silly at a superficial level, but these things can mean a lot depending on context.

Speaking personally, I've lived my entire life on an island province named Newfoundland, which is part of Canada. The fishery is a huge part of the cultural heritage of my province. Our songs, our stories, our books, loads of it goes back to the major role that fishing has played in the history of our province. It very much shapes our understanding of ourselves. Even still, to some extent, over 20 years after the Newfoundland cod fishery collapsed.

I get the impression that apple farming is just as big to the Windermere people as cod fishing was to Newfoundland. That sort of thing really does shape a people, and can create a deeper appreciation for certain things.

To you, a cod fish might just be another food item. To me, it runs deeper, as I associate it with my home and its cultural heritage. To both of us, an apple might be just another food item. But to Freyja...

However it is being played for comedic effect to slice down the brewing tension, not as character build up or any sort of resolution to her supposed troubles.

What was the original reason she wavered? Her homeland is at war with she side she had in a way illegally immigrated to. She's being called a spy left and right, and two episodes ago she was deemed a traitor by Bogue. She joined the Walkure's because she admired them, loved music and wanted to help people yet she seemed to be clueless unless pushed into extreme conditions.

So Mikumo tells her to do some soul searching fast, pushing her into situations that would help her grow.

But what happened in these two episodes? She's bad at going undercover all because of...apples. She keeps insisting she'd be better and show up Mikumo but spends much of her time just sort of dilly dallying about until she sees two kids suffering from her homeland occupation. They reach the Shrine, find out about VAR apples, her two friends are being beaten to a pulp-

Yet for some reason the show seems more interested in keeping her adorably cheerful and pure rather than actually making her answer some really tough questions- questions that THEY imposed upon her in the scenario they constructed. The Knights and Hayate are the only ones discussing the actual issues of the conflict while Freyja ended up being more upset that the laborer's hard work is being used as a weapon...while never once even bothering to ask or deny their motivations.


I'm not trying to hate on Freyja, but I personally didn't enjoy the last two episodes if I'm thinking of just the main characters. I don't see what development Freyja has had other than another extended song sequence which I also unfortunately didn't enjoy. I feel like this meeting with the knights came too early into the show, as Freyja's clearly not capable of asking anything meaningful despite such a gathering. I feel like the homework Mikumo gave her was wasted because I don't feel like her motivations were any more different than it was before, and that they didn't use this opportunity to learn anything about the walkures themselves also makes the whole thing rather frustrating.

In the end we could skip the Knight aggression in the shrine and straight to the cat children's soldier daddy and she'd likely still end up on the same outcome.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

There’s also this “little title” called Sakura Wars (based on the SEGA’s longtime Sakura Taisen game franchise) as an excellent example of Mahou Idol series in a steampunk setting. You see, the girls in SW might not have magical transformation, but they use their magical/spiritual powers to control their mechs (called Koubu) to protect their city from demons.

You're seriously stretching here.

Face it - "Mahou Idols" are very rare in anime, particularly when it comes to being as well-balanced in capturing both sides of the blend as Walkure is.

I'd say, a show that focus on certain specific thing tend to be better at that specific thing compared to a show that divide its attention to two or three different things. But that's just me.

You're shifting goalposts here. Your previous comment went further than this. You said that Delta's narrative is getting "bogged down by the need to flesh out another set of protagonists who are not idols." And that argument I'm disagreeing with. It's entirely possible to have a very varied protagonist cast without having the narrative being bogged down by it. And I don't think that Delta is getting bogged down at all by balancing focus between its jet-fighter pilot side and its Walkure side. In fact, I think the show has done a very good of balancing the two.

Snark comment? You yourself who said that you put Walkure on top due to their looks and you clicked more with their style:

I never said that was my only reason for putting Walkure on top. I also added "I like the focus on precisely five magical idols instead of a focus on a large group of somewhat random people trying to become idols." Let me also add that I love Walkure's songs so far. I also love the overall look and direction of their action/VAR rescue scenes so far.

So why shouldn't I hold Walkure in high regard and prefer them to other mahou idols?

Originally Posted by Tak

And plenty of detractors.

Which is beside the point. Don't act like everybody is venting over this show, as there's plenty of people who love it.

Its underwhelming because people aren't up at arms about Delta characters here.

Um... what? People certainly seem to have a lot of very strong comments to make about the Windermere side, don't they?

Besides, getting viewers "up in arms" isn't the only way to avoid being "underwhelming". Another way is to make viewers love the characters, and I see plenty of love for Freyja. I don't think this show's character development has been underwhelming. I think it's been quite solid for this point in a show that will run two cours or longer.

Now, is underwhelming necessarily bad? As I have stated, not at all, but compared to Frontier in the front of character developments/interactions? There is a significant gap.

I watched the first few episodes of Frontier. I didn't find its character developments and interactions particularly great. In fact, I remember finding the show's pacing kinda slow and plodding, which is why I ended up dropping/stalling it. I love how fast-paced and energetic Delta is. And, in my opinion, that bleeds over to the characters and their development. I like how Freyja isn't going to be spending loads of episodes just becoming a Walkure member. I like how we got that development over quickly, and that we're going to get to see her gradually develop as a Walkure member over a good long stretch in all likelihood.

Different people can have legitimate taste differences when it comes to what they like seeing in character development, or what they consider good character development. Not everybody necessarily likes a very slow and methodical and "intense" development, heavily-laden with numerous setbacks.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That you (and me too to so extent) like Delta's character designs better doesn't mean they are actually better than 00's.

It means that they're actually better to me. Which is a factor in me liking Delta's mahou idols more than AKB0048's. My main point here is that it is possible for someone to legitimately prefer Walkure to the idols of AKB0048.

It's a matter of taste. 00's do the job just fine. In fact, they look quite a bit more "magical" than Delta's thanks to some details like the hearts on their hair and eyes.

I think Walkure's costumes are much more magical girl-esque than AKB0048's are. Again, Walkure blends magical girl and idol very nicely and evenly. Symphogear leans heavily on the magical girl side. AKB0048 leans heavily on the idol side. Walkure is just right aesthetically, for a magical girl/idol blend, in my view. And yes, that adds a lot to their appeal for me.

As characterization goes, that's all skin-deep.

I disagree. It's solid characterization. You don't necessarily need some great elaborate reason for wanting to help people, or for wanting to be flashy stage performers. For some people, one or both desires comes very naturally. And that's the impression I get with Walkure. So I don't have any problem with their characterization or motivations at all.

By the way, comparing AKB0048's Episode 8 standing with Delta's isn't exactly fair, given that AKB0048 was an one cour show. Delta has more time to work with, so there's less urgency to deeply develop characters by Episode 8 than there is with an one-cour show.

And just to be clear, I'm not criticizing Delta.

It certainly sounds a lot like criticism to me. You definitely don't seem to be happy with Walkure's characterization.

[magnuskn]

I really disagree that so many brain cells died during the shipping wars, Tak. I found them rather intellectually stimulating in many ways.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It certainly sounds a lot like criticism to me. You definitely don't seem to be happy with Walkure's characterization.

Criticism doesn't need to mean that the show is bad. It's a competent show with many good sides. But it is damn inevitable that it is going to be compared to Frontier and even older Macross shows and quite a lot of people by now seem to have noticed that the show seems to lack (so far) that certain je-ne-sai-quoi Frontier had.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by ippus

However it is being played for comedic effect to slice down the brewing tension, not as character build up or any sort of resolution to her supposed troubles.

That's not my impression at all. I didn't laugh at Freyja's comments, and the Aerial Knights seemed to take her seriously as well.

You really do seem to be missing the serious validity to Freyja's comments here. ReddyRedWolf made a very good point about it here: These nobles and knights do not even think about the peasants who make up the majority of Windermere as pointed by Freya. They are making farmers complicit in their crimes. Once it comes out their apples were the source of Var whose pockets do they think would be affected?


RRW is completely right there. Freyja is making a very valid point here. A serious objection to what the Windermere leadership is doing here.

Yet for some reason the show seems more interested in keeping her adorably cheerful and pure rather than actually making her answer some really tough questions- questions that THEY imposed upon her in the scenario they constructed.

She is answering them. She clearly disagrees with what the Windermere leadership are doing, and made that known with a specific and very valid objection. She clearly wants the war to end. It certainly seems like she strongly dislikes war in general. This is all good character development, in my view. I mean, it might be predictable character development, but it still fleshes her out some.

The Knights and Hayate are the only ones discussing the actual issues of the conflict while Freyja ended up being more upset that the laborer's hard work is being used as a weapon... while never once even bothering to ask or deny their motivations.

She seems to find their motivations nonsensical. Well, their motivations are certainly questionable at least.