AnimeSuki Forums

S.Freedom · 2013-04-23, 20:30

Ok I'm not sure I get this need to make Cagalli into some sort of action heroine capable of beating or holding her own against Kira/Athrun in a fight.

That's never been her role within the series. Her role has always been that of plucky rebellious princess and nothing more. As much as I hate to admit it. Yuna had a point in all his lectures to Cagalli. She's no longer in a position to indulge in being an action girl ace pilot. Her primary responsibility both to Orb and her father is to lead Orb into the future. And she can't do that properly if she's trying to be an action girl ace pilot.

Destined_Fate · 2013-04-23, 20:44

No one is asking she should be better at piloting than Kira, Athrun, Shinn, or Lunamaria since her job isn't to be a pilot.

Just that she act not only as the voice of Orb but its shield as well. It would be quite telling that she not only advocates for ORB but is willing to personally defend it and put her life at risk for it before their eyes and of her own choice.

With Athrun's role as an Admiral I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't super amazing at piloting like Kira and Shinn if a movie comes to pass. As he has more important duties than being a pilot like them.

Aquaman OS · 2013-04-23, 21:14

Athrun was outperforming Shinn in a Zaku against the Extended's despite not having piloted in the break between seasons and not having touched MS with standard Zaft controls since before the begining of Seed.

I think he'll be fine. He only starts sucking if he's not fighting on the side he really wants to be on. And since he's the only one who stuck with Orb, that means so long as he's working for Cagalli he's good.

I'm pretty sure Athrun's style of Admiraling is the same as Kira's. "Let me launch and do the heavy lifting, and pick up the scraps in my wake."

S.Freedom · 2013-04-23, 21:27

Why should Cagalli have to act as it's shield when she has a military for that? Much less people in Athrun and Mu who are leagues above her in terms of skill and experience.

As for Athruns command style. I'm not sure he'd be like Kira. I see him more like Mu was in episode 1 of Destiny. He'll only launch when needed and command from the Archangels bridge. That combined with Mu's abilities will be more than enough.

Destined_Fate · 2013-04-23, 21:55

Because we all saw the last couple times ORB military tried to defend itself.

Had Cagalli, Kira, Athrun, and the Archangel not been there than ORB would have feel within the hour with how badly Shinn was making short work of them all. Even Cagalli could barely keep up but at the very least she wasn't killed and help arrived in time before she was in any real danger.

Cagalli's appearance before the others was what helped ensure that ORB wasn't lost before reinforcements arrived to push back the ZAFT invasion.

Or in SEED how even with Kira and Athrun ORB was still lost.

So Cagalli being able to help defend her home isn't a bad thing at all and if anything it would be the smart decision as she can pilot far better than a mere grunt and her presence on the battlefield would be inspiring for her people even if she isn't doing crazy stuff like Kira or Athrun.

S.Freedom · 2013-04-23, 22:48

Oi that's circular logic. If the combined strength of the Freedom, Justice and Archangel couldn't prevent the fall of Orb. What makes you think Cagalli by her self would make any difference?

Yes Cagalli's presence allowed Orbs military regroup. But without the intervention of Kira in the S.Freedom and the doms Orb sill would have fallen a second time. Especially after witnessing Destiny take out a Cagalli piloted Akatsuki. It was just a matter of time before ZAFT's superior numbers won the battle for them like it did the EA.

Besides your missing the overall point. The world is at peace at the end of Destiny. And in a far better position for politicians like Cagalli and Lacus to create a lasting sustainable peace. Cagalli diverting her attention away from attaining that peace to become a better pilot increases the likelihood that those skills become necessary. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

The American Average · 2013-04-23, 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

Yes Cagalli's presence allowed Orbs military regroup. But without the intervention of Kira in the S.Freedom and the doms Orb sill would have fallen a second time. Especially after witnessing Destiny take out a Cagalli piloted Akatsuki. It was just a matter of time before ZAFT's superior numbers won the battle for them like it did the EA.

Besides your missing the overall point. The world is at peace at the end of Destiny. And in a far better position for politicians like Cagalli and Lacus to create a lasting sustainable peace. Cagalli diverting her attention away from attaining that peace to become a better pilot increases the likelihood that those skills become necessary. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

when i read the first part couldn't help but laugh; Kira and 3 Dom equal more fighting strength than all of Orbs Military might combined with the Akatsuki.
more to the point its true that Shinn would have eventually beat Cagalli in the Akatsuki, but i could never take that fight seriously for a couple of reasons

1) Cagalli holds her own against Shinn for awhile, but just starts to get curbstomp soon as Kira enters the battlefield just in time to save her.
2) More a pet-peeve but the way Shinn cuts the Akatsuki's shield in half with what seems no effort at all. which is funny to me is why have the shield if its breaks so easily and how Shinns anti-ship get cut in half by Athrun's Infinite Justice's beam saber later.

Back to Zaft winning Orb, the fight was also started for Djbril's arrest and as he did in Heavens base he would have bailed long before Orb would have been destroyed resulting in a cease fire.

I do agree with you in the last part Cagalli would be too busy trying to fill the shoes left by her father then trying to be an ace pilot.

S.Freedom · 2013-04-24, 00:36

Honestly the main reason Cagalli "held her own" against Shinn is primarily due to the Akatsuki's anti-beam armor. Once Shinn realized he couldn't simple beam spam the Alatsuki he made the logical choice to use the sword and boomarangs. Which I found some what odd myself. That the Akatsuki was immune to beam rifles/cannons yet seemingly weak against beam boomarangs or anti-ships swords.

Let's face it, Cagalli was a mediocre pilot at best. Most of her success came about from the suit she piloted and not from skill. And the effort needed to make her a good enough pilot to be able to properly defend Orb is a waste of time. Especially when that time and effort can better be spent to prevent an attack in the first place.

As for Kira and the Doms having greater strength than Orbs military. You have to take into account that Yuna being the idiot* that he is didn't deploy Orbs military until after ZAFT started their attack. This allowed ZAFT to inflict a decent amount of damage before Orb was ever able to mount a serious attempt at defending it's self. And by that point ZAFT was taking full advantage of being un-apposed to it's fullest.

*And I'm being nice by referring to Yuna as stupid.

Aquaman OS · 2013-04-24, 00:42

They probably could have won without the Doms, but Kira was necessery to stop Shinn. As it was it bounced back and forth. Initially Zaft is stomping them because Yuna is in charge and giving stupid orders. Then Cagalli comes back, gets Yuna arrested and allows competant people to start giving orders and Zaft's advance is stalled. Then Shinn launches and starts chopping up Murasame's left and right. Then Kira arrives and stalls Shinn, bringing it back to a deadlock. Then Shinn leaves, allowing Kira to join the fight against Zaft's main forces and start pushing them back. Then Shinn and Rey launch and start overwhelming Kira. Then Athrun shows up and saves him and damages Shinn. At this point Djbril gets away and the fight ends, but otherwise Orb would still probably have won as Shinn was down, Orb had 2 super Gundams vs Zaft's 1.

Akatsuki itself didn't do much, since Cagalli blew up a few guys but mostly just took it to the central base and parked it for the rest of the battle. It's main purpose was getting her to the command center to take control

Come to think of it it was the same and Seed. Kira and Athrun could have easily blown up Daggers all day, but they were usually too busy fighting the Druggies to help out, letting EA's numbers push Orb back.

Washu-Chan · 2013-04-24, 01:15

Has it been mentioned already that Cagalli was a fighter and not a politician?

monster · 2013-04-24, 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

Has it been mentioned already that Cagalli was a fighter and not a politician?

With Cagalli's current position, she doesn't need to be a fighter anymore, but she better learn to be a good politician, if she hasn't already.

Washu-Chan · 2013-04-24, 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster

With Cagalli's current position, she doesn't need to be a fighter anymore and she better learn to be a good politician, if she hasn't already.

I'm saying that she's more of a fighter at heart, and that she's not good at politics.

I'm thinking that for Lacus's goals, she'll have to try to live up to her father's legacy.

The American Average · 2013-04-24, 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster

With Cagalli's current position, she doesn't need to be a fighter anymore, but she better learn to be a good politician, if she hasn't already.

I'm curious was it ever stated on what Cagalli did between Seed and Destiny? was she being taught on how to run a country cause from what i could tell from Seed Uzumi never really taught her. She really just ran off all the time doing her own thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

Has it been mentioned already that Cagalli was a fighter and not a politician?

not really, after all i think she knew more about guerrilla warfare and political rules

S.Freedom · 2013-04-24, 01:36

At this point it doesn't matter if she was a fighter instead of politician.

Given the current situation, she can't afford to be seen as a "fighter" on the political stage she now inhabits as Orbs Chief Representative. Like I said before, that was the whole point of Yuna's speeches to her. Neither Orb or Cagalli and dare I say world can afford for her to be the same hotheadedly reckless person she was during Seed. That will only get her and Orb in the kind of trouble neither can afford atm. Thankfully she has a friend like Lacus to help her with the subtleties of being a politician.

@The American Average I think she was more of a political figure head for the Seirans. From what I saw they did most of the heavy lifting where politics and governing the country went. She was simply their pawn to be trotted out when they needed to get something done. As for her father not teaching her anything. I think he was waiting for her to move out of her "rebellious" stage before teaching her about politics.

The American Average · 2013-04-24, 01:51

if she really was a figure head why would Orb want her to stay in office? its Obvious that the military respects her, so why not have her be leader of that and put someone in office who knows what they're doing.
with lacus ugh still don't get how a pop idol one minute perfect leader the next second for no real reason. she wasn't an ultimate coordinator or anything shes the daughter of some half baked chairman that couldn't get his people to agree with him

monster · 2013-04-24, 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

I'm saying that she's more of a fighter at heart, and that she's not good at politics.

I'm thinking that for Lacus's goals, she'll have to try to live up to her father's legacy.

I know, I'm just saying that, regardless of what Cagalli is more comfortable doing, she is now effectively a politician. So she'd better be good at it if she doesn't want Orb to go down a different path again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The American Average

if she really was a figure head why would Orb want her to stay in office?

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Cagalli was a mere figurehead. It's just in that one crucial issue regarding whether Orb should join the Earth Alliance, Cagalli found out that she did not have any support for her position on the matter. But regardless, I don't think Orb has a choice about her staying in office unless someone wants to start a revolution. That said, clearly Cagalli has the public support at the very least.

Paladinoras · 2013-04-24, 08:23

If Cagalli was as important to the Orb military as some of you think, she'd be in the final battle of Destiny. But she knew that she could do more good while staying back at Orb, and I don't see why her viewpoint would change in the coming years, unless if she found someone competent to replace her as the head of the country and she could fully throw herself at MS piloting.

She has SOME potential, in that field. Not GOOD potential, but some potential. No matter how much training she receives I think that she'll ultimately peak at sub-Druggie level.

Oh, and was the SEED HD remaster a success? Good ratings and such?

Gundamx · 2013-04-24, 09:23

Even if you are best pilot >>> leaders can't fight in front line since than all enemy will just attack her >>> she die >>> end up without leader > chaos

Destined_Fate · 2013-04-24, 11:50

Cagalli couldn't leave as ORB was a mess again, her people needed her to oversee the rebuilding process and the fact that Yuna had just been ousted as did many corrupt politicians. So she had an excuse there for not fighting. That and she knew she couldn't pilot the Akatsuki better than Mwu anyway.

Despite the fact that it was supposed to be hers but her Father used an outdated system that she could never hope to master due to lack of great Spatial Awareness.

So her Father didn't think that through at all.

At the very least Cagalli could have Lacus of ZAFT or data from the Strike Freedom to have the Akatsuki upgraded so that she could eventually use the DRAGOON System without Mwu's ability. Sorta like how Kira can use the Strike Freedom without being like Mwu.

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

Oi that's circular logic. If the combined strength of the Freedom, Justice and Archangel couldn't prevent the fall of Orb. What makes you think Cagalli by her self would make any difference?

Yes Cagalli's presence allowed Orbs military regroup. But without the intervention of Kira in the S.Freedom and the doms Orb sill would have fallen a second time. Especially after witnessing Destiny take out a Cagalli piloted Akatsuki. It was just a matter of time before ZAFT's superior numbers won the battle for them like it did the EA.

Besides your missing the overall point. The world is at peace at the end of Destiny. And in a far better position for politicians like Cagalli and Lacus to create a lasting sustainable peace. Cagalli diverting her attention away from attaining that peace to become a better pilot increases the likelihood that those skills become necessary. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

Because she DID make a difference in Destiny. Orb was literally about to fall until she showed up to help and she managed to buy enough time for Kira and co. to arrive to help defend ORB. Though even with them there ORB could have still fallen, but at the very least the fighting bought enough time for the Logos leader to decide to flee instead of staying while ORB burned.

Peace isn't eternal, Kira even decides to fight for the peace as he knows that eventually someone will start war again. Only this time he'll be ready and so will everyone else, and he made peace with Shinn to count as an ally for the future.

Besides, there's no peace to attain after Destiny as after Durandal's defeat all hostilities grinded to a halt and peace talks were already going under way with Lacus leading them and Cagalli joining in. So I highly doubt they will be still having huge peace talks after some time after Destiny.

Aquaman OS · 2013-04-24, 12:02

They have all accepted though that someone somewhere WILL start trouble again sometime, and they'll have to go stop them.

If you go by Astray someone already has, Libarian works or whatever they're called, although they're kind of a stupid enemy group. Another Century's Episode R had some more Blue Cosmos remnant terrorist groups breaking out post Destiny, but that's a game so it probably is just something they made up to have the heroes fighting something in the first stage.

2013-04-24, 01:15	Link #6610
Washu-Chan Powered by AMD Athrun 64 Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Washington, DC	Has it been mentioned already that Cagalli was a fighter and not a politician? __________________

2013-04-24, 01:51	Link #6615
The American Average 2LMES Join Date: May 2012 Location: a comet that goes zooom!!!	if she really was a figure head why would Orb want her to stay in office? its Obvious that the military respects her, so why not have her be leader of that and put someone in office who knows what they're doing. with lacus ugh still don't get how a pop idol one minute perfect leader the next second for no real reason. she wasn't an ultimate coordinator or anything shes the daughter of some half baked chairman that couldn't get his people to agree with him __________________

2013-04-24, 08:23	Link #6617
Paladinoras Pancakes Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: In Your House. No, really, look properly.	If Cagalli was as important to the Orb military as some of you think, she'd be in the final battle of Destiny. But she knew that she could do more good while staying back at Orb, and I don't see why her viewpoint would change in the coming years, unless if she found someone competent to replace her as the head of the country and she could fully throw herself at MS piloting. She has SOME potential, in that field. Not GOOD potential, but some potential. No matter how much training she receives I think that she'll ultimately peak at sub-Druggie level. Oh, and was the SEED HD remaster a success? Good ratings and such? __________________ Credit to Godlike1889 for the sig! Last edited by Paladinoras; 2013-04-24 at 08:42.

2013-04-23, 20:30	Link #6601
S.Freedom Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: On the edge of insanity Age: 44	Ok I'm not sure I get this need to make Cagalli into some sort of action heroine capable of beating or holding her own against Kira/Athrun in a fight. That's never been her role within the series. Her role has always been that of plucky rebellious princess and nothing more. As much as I hate to admit it. Yuna had a point in all his lectures to Cagalli. She's no longer in a position to indulge in being an action girl ace pilot. Her primary responsibility both to Orb and her father is to lead Orb into the future. And she can't do that properly if she's trying to be an action girl ace pilot.

2013-04-23, 20:44	Link #6602
Destined_Fate Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."	No one is asking she should be better at piloting than Kira, Athrun, Shinn, or Lunamaria since her job isn't to be a pilot. Just that she act not only as the voice of Orb but its shield as well. It would be quite telling that she not only advocates for ORB but is willing to personally defend it and put her life at risk for it before their eyes and of her own choice. With Athrun's role as an Admiral I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't super amazing at piloting like Kira and Shinn if a movie comes to pass. As he has more important duties than being a pilot like them.

2013-04-23, 21:14	Link #6603
Aquaman OS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	Athrun was outperforming Shinn in a Zaku against the Extended's despite not having piloted in the break between seasons and not having touched MS with standard Zaft controls since before the begining of Seed. I think he'll be fine. He only starts sucking if he's not fighting on the side he really wants to be on. And since he's the only one who stuck with Orb, that means so long as he's working for Cagalli he's good. I'm pretty sure Athrun's style of Admiraling is the same as Kira's. "Let me launch and do the heavy lifting, and pick up the scraps in my wake."

2013-04-23, 21:27	Link #6604
S.Freedom Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: On the edge of insanity Age: 44	Why should Cagalli have to act as it's shield when she has a military for that? Much less people in Athrun and Mu who are leagues above her in terms of skill and experience. As for Athruns command style. I'm not sure he'd be like Kira. I see him more like Mu was in episode 1 of Destiny. He'll only launch when needed and command from the Archangels bridge. That combined with Mu's abilities will be more than enough.

2013-04-23, 21:55	Link #6605
Destined_Fate Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."	Because we all saw the last couple times ORB military tried to defend itself. Had Cagalli, Kira, Athrun, and the Archangel not been there than ORB would have feel within the hour with how badly Shinn was making short work of them all. Even Cagalli could barely keep up but at the very least she wasn't killed and help arrived in time before she was in any real danger. Cagalli's appearance before the others was what helped ensure that ORB wasn't lost before reinforcements arrived to push back the ZAFT invasion. Or in SEED how even with Kira and Athrun ORB was still lost. So Cagalli being able to help defend her home isn't a bad thing at all and if anything it would be the smart decision as she can pilot far better than a mere grunt and her presence on the battlefield would be inspiring for her people even if she isn't doing crazy stuff like Kira or Athrun.

2013-04-23, 22:48	Link #6606
S.Freedom Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: On the edge of insanity Age: 44	Oi that's circular logic. If the combined strength of the Freedom, Justice and Archangel couldn't prevent the fall of Orb. What makes you think Cagalli by her self would make any difference? Yes Cagalli's presence allowed Orbs military regroup. But without the intervention of Kira in the S.Freedom and the doms Orb sill would have fallen a second time. Especially after witnessing Destiny take out a Cagalli piloted Akatsuki. It was just a matter of time before ZAFT's superior numbers won the battle for them like it did the EA. Besides your missing the overall point. The world is at peace at the end of Destiny. And in a far better position for politicians like Cagalli and Lacus to create a lasting sustainable peace. Cagalli diverting her attention away from attaining that peace to become a better pilot increases the likelihood that those skills become necessary. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

2013-04-24, 00:36	Link #6608
S.Freedom Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: On the edge of insanity Age: 44	Honestly the main reason Cagalli "held her own" against Shinn is primarily due to the Akatsuki's anti-beam armor. Once Shinn realized he couldn't simple beam spam the Alatsuki he made the logical choice to use the sword and boomarangs. Which I found some what odd myself. That the Akatsuki was immune to beam rifles/cannons yet seemingly weak against beam boomarangs or anti-ships swords. Let's face it, Cagalli was a mediocre pilot at best. Most of her success came about from the suit she piloted and not from skill. And the effort needed to make her a good enough pilot to be able to properly defend Orb is a waste of time. Especially when that time and effort can better be spent to prevent an attack in the first place. As for Kira and the Doms having greater strength than Orbs military. You have to take into account that Yuna being the idiot* that he is didn't deploy Orbs military until after ZAFT started their attack. This allowed ZAFT to inflict a decent amount of damage before Orb was ever able to mount a serious attempt at defending it's self. And by that point ZAFT was taking full advantage of being un-apposed to it's fullest. *And I'm being nice by referring to Yuna as stupid.

2013-04-24, 00:42	Link #6609
Aquaman OS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	They probably could have won without the Doms, but Kira was necessery to stop Shinn. As it was it bounced back and forth. Initially Zaft is stomping them because Yuna is in charge and giving stupid orders. Then Cagalli comes back, gets Yuna arrested and allows competant people to start giving orders and Zaft's advance is stalled. Then Shinn launches and starts chopping up Murasame's left and right. Then Kira arrives and stalls Shinn, bringing it back to a deadlock. Then Shinn leaves, allowing Kira to join the fight against Zaft's main forces and start pushing them back. Then Shinn and Rey launch and start overwhelming Kira. Then Athrun shows up and saves him and damages Shinn. At this point Djbril gets away and the fight ends, but otherwise Orb would still probably have won as Shinn was down, Orb had 2 super Gundams vs Zaft's 1. Akatsuki itself didn't do much, since Cagalli blew up a few guys but mostly just took it to the central base and parked it for the rest of the battle. It's main purpose was getting her to the command center to take control Come to think of it it was the same and Seed. Kira and Athrun could have easily blown up Daggers all day, but they were usually too busy fighting the Druggies to help out, letting EA's numbers push Orb back.

2013-04-24, 01:36	Link #6614
S.Freedom Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: On the edge of insanity Age: 44	At this point it doesn't matter if she was a fighter instead of politician. Given the current situation, she can't afford to be seen as a "fighter" on the political stage she now inhabits as Orbs Chief Representative. Like I said before, that was the whole point of Yuna's speeches to her. Neither Orb or Cagalli and dare I say world can afford for her to be the same hotheadedly reckless person she was during Seed. That will only get her and Orb in the kind of trouble neither can afford atm. Thankfully she has a friend like Lacus to help her with the subtleties of being a politician. @The American Average I think she was more of a political figure head for the Seirans. From what I saw they did most of the heavy lifting where politics and governing the country went. She was simply their pawn to be trotted out when they needed to get something done. As for her father not teaching her anything. I think he was waiting for her to move out of her "rebellious" stage before teaching her about politics.

2013-04-24, 09:23	Link #6618
Gundamx Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010	Even if you are best pilot >>> leaders can't fight in front line since than all enemy will just attack her >>> she die >>> end up without leader > chaos

2013-04-24, 12:02	Link #6620
Aquaman OS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	They have all accepted though that someone somewhere WILL start trouble again sometime, and they'll have to go stop them. If you go by Astray someone already has, Libarian works or whatever they're called, although they're kind of a stupid enemy group. Another Century's Episode R had some more Blue Cosmos remnant terrorist groups breaking out post Destiny, but that's a game so it probably is just something they made up to have the heroes fighting something in the first stage.