Higurashi Spoiler Discussion (for people who have read the clues/finished the series)

[Rias]

But isn't the fact that K1 and the gang discovered Rena on the Gomi-yama, while she was dismembering Rina and Te-chan, the real trigger to Tsumihoroboshi-events?

In Minagoroshi-hen, it was expressed that "a tragedy should not be adverted by killing another person.". Also whenever one of the club members has to kill someone, that world is considered "lost" to Rika. That was what made me feel that the moment Rena killed Rina and Teppei, Tsumihoroboshi-hen started.

She felt guilty over not being quick enough to kill Teppei after she killed Rina.

There's no edvidence to suggest that if Rena killed Rina, she doesn't kill Teppei after. It just seem quite natural that once Rina's been killed (after approaching Rena's father), that Teppei would show up and try to blackmail Rena's father anyway. When that happens, since Teppei doesn't even move back to Hinamizawa, Satoko isn't affected. The only guilt Rena might have towards Satoko is the disappearance of Satoshi, as they couldn't do anything to help Satoshi/Satoko. Of course, more guilt when Tatarigoroshi/Tsukiotoshi occurs.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

Yes I never wanted to contradict that. I think her Delusional Parasitosis started after the tried-rape during her school-time outside Hinamizawa, she felt dirty and the guilt she felt because of the divorce of her parents added to her weak psychological state. She just managed to supress it after she returned to Hinamizawa, but when Rina made a pass on her father it was getting stronger again and she started lossing her sanity.

Well, the syndrom really begun when rena begun to self mutilate. but not really important anyway ^^"
I believe the curse of Oyashiro-sama is just a catalyst but also a "limiter" to her madness. Basically, she put EVERYTHING she thought guilty/filth and the like into Oyashiro-sama. This belief is really peculiar with Rena, since the Curse has 2 effects :

• Decreases her own doubts, guilt, misconception, since "everything is because of oyashiro"
• Increase her down doubts and paranoia, when anything looks related with the village and the like.

Considering the dicease triggers and a possible "placebo" effect (since she believe she will be forgiven if she returns to hinamizawa), Rena was indeed able to suppress the effects of the syndrom by returning in the village.
It is safe to assume that her "Hauu" behaviour was also another "inhibitor" to her madness, as explained in Tsumihoroboshi.

Hmm ok so I think the biggest problem is which medium we see as the really 'true' Higurashi, because in the PS2 version there is a scene, very early in the game, when you go shopping with Rena, that shows that Rina seems to be a certain factor in her life.
This scene occurs, as far as I know, without any real connection to the following arc, so I stay with my theory of them being a permanent factor.
But I think that is also part of finding your own explanation to Higurashi

The thing is Matsuri game was designed so the world would be coherent, and so, the starting point can lead to anything. So that starting point must have the "basis" events, so it would make sense for the rest.

Considering the lack of evidence in either the PC VN or the manga, it is pretty safe to say that every "trigger" scenes doesn't always ocur in each Chapter, or else, there would be many problems...

Well this is the problem with Takano, I don't think that she intentionaly chooses one of the gang in each arc and that she always gets the right one who is in a weak emotional state.
Because in Tsumihoroboshi Oishi was able to aquire several of Takanos scrapbooks, some of them from the Sonozaki household, it seemed to me like Takano approaches several people in each arc, but only those who are in a weakened stage show real 'interest' in her theories, while others cast her aside as a random Occult-otaku.
The fact that none of the friends really share something other than their daily life in school with each other they never even get to think about Takanos involvement.

This is why i put " on "prey" ^^
Of course, she absolutely doesn't focus any specific person per se. The number of scrapbooks, and so, theories is large enough so she can reach/affect a large range of "paranoid subjects".
That said, i believe she somewhat "targets" a specific person when the condition are met (basically, obvious hints that person has a growing paranoia, i.e shion, thinking about the link between the murders and the Gosanke)
Of course, the fact that "madness" only touch Rika's friends might be more than a simple..."coincidence" with her...

[Davidj]

Originally Posted by Regel

First of all, does Takano really wants to wipe Hinamizawa because of personal grudges?

As we know, she does all of these to become a "god"? How the Hinamizawa wiping will make her "god"?

And with the "Queen Carrier Theory" we get this: she want's to get that "queen" virus somehow from Rika. Then she'll become (as she thinks) the "reincarnation of oyashiro-sama" herself. In other word she thinks she will become a "god".
------------------------------

And what organizations do we have?
What is SDF and what is the "Yamainu Organization"?

SDF is merely the Japanese military. Yamainu (wolf) is the codename for the unit assigned to the project. For a while I entertained the theory that Takano did in fact want to replace Rika as the virus "queen"...but the fact is, her actions in the end are inconsistent with it. The Hinamazawans are killed at her urging and there's no point in being the queen without a hive.

It helped when I realised that the cannibalism thing is just one of Takano's lies using the eating of intestines to try to increase Shion's paranoia by freaking her out. Eating people's intestines is after all the closest thing Shinto has to blasphemy, which is why it features so prominently in Claymore. But the torture instruments are just torture instruments from the bad old days when the three families chose some rather harsh ways to keep people in line (or in the case of the Sonozaki, how they still express their displeasure with people who cross them). They are not cooking utensils.

I've heard this "become a god" thing in translation before and I think it would be more accurately be translated in this case as "playing god" in English, to make decisions and take actions which will determine who lives and who dies on a fairly large scale. She kills several thousand people believing that in so doing, she may be saving at least as many others by keeping Hinamazawa from turning back into Onigafuchi.

Incidentally I don't think it's a virus. Assuming I'm right and the vector is the town water supply then viruses don't fit the bill because viruses can only reproduce with the assistance of living cells. They don't float around freely in the water. That's why the diseases associated with water supply contamination tend to be bacterial growths like typhus, cholera and e. coli. Viruses are passed directly from animal to animal and we aren't seeing that here. The disease isn't spreading to people who don't live in Hinamazawa and the person we saw get infected didn't come into physical contact with an animal in the vicinity. Such an intensely localised infection militates in favour of environmental contamination.

I also considered and rejected prions. There was talk about eating people but no actual people-eating in the present going on. Tomitake and Keiichi developed massive cases without eating suspicious meat. Oiichi on the other hand didn't, but I credit that to his preference for coffee and beer.

Lastly I thought about bacteria, but that may not be quite right. I'm sure Japanese has a word for "bacteria" but the word used to describe the infection is always translated as "parasite". What's more, in 1983, they had loads of very effective antibiotics that worked on just about everything bacterial until over-use bred new more intractible strains. But what they didn't have was an antibiotic that would work on malaria, because malaria is not a bacterium. It's a protozoan parasite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protozoan. There were and are antimalarial drugs, but the course of treatment is long and uncertain even now. Assuming that they modelled HS on malaria, that also explains why Takano wanted to vivisect patients. Malaria operates by setting up an infection reservoir in the liver from which periodically the patient is reinfected. The proposed vivisection could have been with a mind toward locating the specific organ where the infection lies dormant so they could then pursue more targeted treatments.

[Klashikari]

err... not really useful to quote and answer a post from october heh

Originally Posted by Davidj

I've heard this "become a god" thing in translation before and I think it would be more accurately be translated in this case as "playing god" in English, to make decisions and take actions which will determine who lives and who dies on a fairly large scale. She kills several thousand people believing that in so doing, she may be saving at least as many others by keeping Hinamazawa from turning back into Onigafuchi.

Considering the letter, there isn't really a clue if Takano Hifumi asked her to do a massacre. I believe he was rather asking her to do a genius stun, so she will be reverred. But Miyo has a rather twisted mind, and associated this with something else... (both carnage, and the "hero" part)

Lastly I thought about bacteria, but that may not be quite right. I'm sure Japanese has a word for "bacteria" but the word used to describe the infection is always translated as "parasite". What's more, in 1983, they had loads of very effective antibiotics that worked on just about everything bacterial until over-use bred new more intractible strains. But what they didn't have was an antibiotic that would work on malaria, because malaria is not a bacterium. It's a protozoan parasite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protozoan. There were and are antimalarial drugs, but the course of treatment is long and uncertain even now. Assuming that they modelled HS on malaria, that also explains why Takano wanted to vivisect patients. Malaria operates by setting up an infection reservoir in the liver from which periodically the patient is reinfected. The proposed vivisection could have been with a mind toward locating the specific organ where the infection lies dormant so they could then pursue more targeted treatments.

Though the Syndrom is based on some effects really possible to happen in reality, the whole thing is rather a complete fictional point. Thus, we can't really assume if it might be "X", considering that some factors. (the fact the "bacteria" isn't trackable, and can't be found just a few hours after the death of the host)

[sezen_atacan]

I have a question about Saikoroshi-hen, it is suppose to be an extra arc but the summary for it seems interesting. What "perfect world" did Rika found herself in that makes her go off in a killing rampage(?)

After seeing 2nd series episode-4 today, isn't saikoroshi-hen the type of world Rika seeks? Now why would she want to destroy it? In Saikoroshi-hen. I don't know if this is suppose to be parody/dark-comedy since the other extra arc that came with this package is pure parody.

[SeventhHS]

Originally Posted by sezen_atacan

After seeing 2nd series episode-4 today, isn't saikoroshi-hen the type of world Rika seeks? Now why would she want to destroy it? In Saikoroshi-hen. I don't know if this is suppose to be parody/dark-comedy since the other extra arc that came with this package is pure parody.

Imagine, like Rika, that you spent a countless number of years trying to save the lives of yourself and friends... suffering in silence, as you put up a facade that isn't you in order to keep everyone happy. Finally, you accomplish your goal. But then, the past changes, and none of that ever happened; your friends no longer needed saving; all your effort was for naught. Moreover, you're just an ordinary person again. No one would possibly believe what you went through. If you want to interact with those you love, you'll have to put up that facade again.

Wouldn't you be a little bummed?

[Klashikari]

No, i Believe Rika wouldn't mind if after the struggle, everything became a happy ending.

however, what makes her insane is rather the "too happy" part of this world.
Since no character had their "drama", their developments weren't applied thus far.

As far as i could understand, Keiichi isn't there (since he probably didn't got any problem in school and/or didn't go psycho with airsoft gun), Shion and Mion didn't switch their places, Satoko has her niinii and her parents, thus far, Satoko is kinda spoiled, and the like. (IIRC, Rika also wanted to kick satoko's ass)

another player might confirm or not, but i believe Rika wasn't pleased with her friends become goody 2 shoes, without any "mature points" present in their struggling.

[Rias]

Basically the world of Saikoroshi-hen is the best for everyone but Rika.

Spoiler for saikoroshi-hen elements:

She isn't priased by everyone in the village, her "annoying" mother is still alive, and was isolated in the class. Most of her classmates, espically Satoko, weren't pleased that she was acting like a spoiled princess and ordering the boys to do things things for her. Also, the village is going to disapper in half a year becuase the dam project actually pushed thru.

I think Rika was displeased with several things in that world:
-Isolation at school
-Her mother
-Satoko
-The fruit of her life-long stuggle is gone
-Lack of Hanyuu's presence
-Club memebers not as mature
-Probably Keiichi's disappearance, 2%

As the story progresses on, Rika was eventually given the chance to overcome the things she doesn't like in this world. She is starting to make friends again in school, starting to like her mother again, and so on. However, when a choice was made available to her to "return" to the Matsuribayashi-hen world...

[Level E]

To add to what Rias said:

Spoiler for Yes, this is a major spoiler summary:

Saikoroshi is the world where nothing happened. I repeat, NOTHING HAPPENED.
Dr. Irie did not make a clinic in the village. Since there is no clinic, Takano did not come to the village. Oishi had retired since there is no drive for him to continue the police force with bizarre cases never happening. Tomitake nor Akasaka came to the village either. Satoshi is still there living happily with Satoko. Shion and Mion are friendly towards each other. Keiichi is not present (although this is more due to the story taking place in 1982, but the lack of Hanyuu's presence will make it nearly impossible for him to come to the village). Satoko's and Rika's parents are alive. Since Satoko's parents are alive, Teppei never comes into the picture. The Hojou family were not singled out as the village accepted the dam building project.

Since Satoko never suffered, she never got close to Rika. Since there is no club, Mion, Rena, and Rika are just classmates (the reason for the creation of the club is explained in Matsuribayashi-hen). For some unknown reason, Hanyuu cannot enter this world and could possible disappear which means Rika will loose the person who she grew up with, a person who was family to her and been with her since birth and shared all the memories through all the worlds and years. Even more so, because of the dam project going on just fine, everyone will be separated in the future.

The world is ideal. It is the way things should have happened. In this world, Rika can forget everything. Everything, the past 100+ years of torment, is meaningless in this world.

Rika is given the choice: To forget everything and live in a world that's "perfect," or go back to the world where everything she worked for and finally won has meaning. She is given this choice because she took this for granted. She is given this choice because she doesn't realize what she sacrificed for that victory.

I'll stop there for now since I think what Rika had to sacrifice will make much more sense after Matsuribayashi-hen.

[sezen_atacan]

So Rika can fight? Doesn't she always fail no matter how much she has tried to jump someone? What plan does Rika have this time? Take on Takano's role and have everyone turn against each other?

[Davidj]

Originally Posted by sezen_atacan

So Rika can fight? Doesn't she always fail no matter how much she has tried to jump someone?

Well the only people she's ever fought have had loads of adrenaline pumping through their veins and are hypervigilant. But apart from that you know she helps Satoko set traps.

[Rias]

Originally Posted by Level E

To add to what Rias said:

Spoiler for Yes, this is a major spoiler summary:

Saikoroshi is the world where nothing happened. I repeat, NOTHING HAPPENED.
Dr. Irie did not make a clinic in the village. Since there is no clinic, Takano did not come to the village. Oishi had retired since there is no drive for him to continue the police force with bizarre cases never happening. Tomitake nor Akasaka came to the village either. Satoshi is still there living happily with Satoko. Shion and Mion are friendly towards each other. Keiichi is not present (although this is more due to the story taking place in 1982, but the lack of Hanyuu's presence will make it nearly impossible for him to come to the village). Satoko's and Rika's parents are alive. Since Satoko's parents are alive, Teppei never comes into the picture. The Hojou family were not singled out as the village accepted the dam building project.

Since Satoko never suffered, she never got close to Rika. Since there is no club, Mion, Rena, and Rika are just classmates (the reason for the creation of the club is explained in Matsuribayashi-hen). For some unknown reason, Hanyuu cannot enter this world and could possible disappear which means Rika will loose the person who she grew up with, a person who was family to her and been with her since birth and shared all the memories through all the worlds and years. Even more so, because of the dam project going on just fine, everyone will be separated in the future.

The world is ideal. It is the way things should have happened. In this world, Rika can forget everything. Everything, the past 100+ years of torment, is meaningless in this world.

Rika is given the choice: To forget everything and live in a world that's "perfect," or go back to the world where everything she worked for and finally won has meaning. She is given this choice because she took this for granted. She is given this choice because she doesn't realize what she sacrificed for that victory.

I'll stop there for now since I think what Rika had to sacrifice will make much more sense after Matsuribayashi-hen.

Actually...not quite.

Spoiler for saikoroshi-hen character settings:

Saikoroshi-hen isn't a world where nothing happened. Rather, it's a world where no one commited any "crime".

Spoiler for Up to Tsumihoroboshi-hen. Anything more is skipped:

Keiichi - Never needed to transfer to Hinamizawa. Recall the reason Keiichi need to transfer was that he couldn't cope with exam pressure and went on a rampage to shoot childrens with an airsoft gun. In this world, he actually overcame the pressure, and is doing quite well at school.

Rena - Parents never divorced, and never moved to Ibaraki. Since her parents are actually getting along just fine, none of that stuff that happened in Ibaraki occured. Furthermore, she actually calls herself by her real name.

Shion/Mion - Never switched during the ceremony. Therefore, they actually don't feel any guilt towards each other and gets along fine. Shion is in the Hinamizawa school, and Mion is in the private school.

Satoko/Satoshi - Since the dam project actually pushed thru, they weren't isolated by the other members of the village. They do face their "new father" problem, but in time actually gets along nicely with him. Thus, there were no need for their aunt/uncle to show up. They also live happily as a family.

[kgptzac]

Originally Posted by SeventhHS

Imagine, like Rika, that you spent a countless number of years trying to save the lives of yourself and friends... suffering in silence, as you put up a facade that isn't you in order to keep everyone happy. Finally, you accomplish your goal. But then, the past changes, and none of that ever happened; your friends no longer needed saving; all your effort was for naught. Moreover, you're just an ordinary person again. No one would possibly believe what you went through. If you want to interact with those you love, you'll have to put up that facade again.

Wouldn't you be a little bummed?

I'm wondering how "feeling bummed" would actually cause the loli go on a killing spree, and I doubt how it is even done as Rika doesn't look like somebody physiclaly capable of killing "everyone"

[Level E]

Spoiler for Re: Rias:

Originally Posted by Rias

Saikoroshi-hen isn't a world where nothing happened. Rather, it's a world where no one commited any "crime".

That was more or less the way I was going. Although I did forget that Hanyuu did explain what happened to the characters not present. I was recalling incorrectly about the setting in 1982, it was 1983 - oppps.

But either way, I love the message it sent.

[Calca]

Question about the way things play out.

Spoiler:

Why does Rike have to be killed in a certain way for the disaster to occur? Why do they have to kill her in such a ritualistic fasion instead of simply killing her? I know that the disaster doesn't occur when she dies in other ways instead of being watanigashi'd so the disaster doesn't occur then. If the body was found immediately after death, would it still have occured? Could Takano order it, if say, Rika jumped off a cliff and died because she didn't want to wait and the body was found 2 hours later?

I've read the TIPS and everything so feel free to give me a full answer.

[Davidj]

Originally Posted by Streetor

Question about the way things play out.

Spoiler:

Why does Rike have to be killed in a certain way for the disaster to occur?

I've read the TIPS and everything so feel free to give me a full answer.

It's not that she absolutely has to be killed in a certain way. But if she's killed before that time by someone other than the plumbers, the police will come in, denying the plumbers the chance to take control of the situation. The method of death is simply intended to point the finger of suspicion at Hinamazawa natives.

[Rias]

Originally Posted by Streetor

Question about the way things play out.

Spoiler:

Why does Rike have to be killed in a certain way for the disaster to occur? Why do they have to kill her in such a ritualistic fasion instead of simply killing her? I know that the disaster doesn't occur when she dies in other ways instead of being watanigashi'd so the disaster doesn't occur then. If the body was found immediately after death, would it still have occured? Could Takano order it, if say, Rika jumped off a cliff and died because she didn't want to wait and the body was found 2 hours later?

I've read the TIPS and everything so feel free to give me a full answer.

Spoiler:

It's not how she dies, but rather the timing of the corpse discovery. Also, it doesn't matter if the police intervene or not. Think about it this way: If the Queen Carrier Theory is indeed correct, would it matter who discovered the corpse? What does the Queen Carrier Theory prove?

[Rias]

Question of my own, insipired by the epsiode 5 thread.

What does Rika mean when she said "everyone will die" in epsiode 4?

Spoiler for minagoroshi-hen:

The "will die" part is obvious, but who does "everyone" refer to? As we know from Minagoroshi-hen that due to the stance that Hanyuu takes, there's no way for Rika to know about the great disaster. It is also shown in Himatsubushi-hen, from Rika's speech to Akasaka, that "the final death" does refer to Rika herself.

If she meant "everyone" as to every club members...then it's also not too plausible at that stage of time.

Perhaps a production mistake?

[sezen_atacan]

Um.. I know it would sound funny but.... does the Hinamizawa neuro-disease exist in real life under a different name?? The TIPs section that talks about all the symptoms, delusions, and stuff just coincedently seems to be talked about in regular media and real medical reports too.....

I have no experience in the field of medicine but I don't know such psychosis virus actually exists that causes even the most sane to go insane with only a small push. I guess a vague example would be this one here I guess? => link below

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/of...hlight=haunted

[SeventhHS]

Originally Posted by sezen_atacan

Um.. I know it would sound funny but.... does the Hinamizawa neuro-disease exist in real life under a different name?? The TIPs section that talks about all the symptoms, delusions, and stuff just coincedently seems to be talked about in regular media and real medical reports too.....

I highly doubt it, but just for kicks I browsed Wikipedia a bit and found these described as symptoms of general paresis, a complication of syphilis:

It had been considered a psychiatric disorder before and during the nineteenth century, when it was first scientifically identified and discovered to be extremely common, because the patient usually first sought—or was brought for—treatment because of psychotic symptoms of sudden and often dramatic onset.

Ooh.

The diagnosis could be differentiated from other known psychoses by a characteristic abnormality in eye pupil reflexes (Argyll Robertson pupil)

Oh, hey!

and, eventually, the development of muscular reflex abnormalities, seizures

That's Season 1 animation for you.

memory impairment (dementia) and other signs of relatively pervasive neurocerebral deterioration.

Might be responsible for Keiichi's stupidity in the question arcs.

Psychosis has also been associated with AIDS, influenza, leprosy, lupus, Lyme disease, malaria, mumps, and various autoimmune disorders. Syphilis is probably the most notorious of its infectious causes, though.