Fate/Zero - Episode 7 Discussion / Poll

[larethian]

I'd say it's pretty well adapted for an anime. We can't have everything adapted. That won't make sense. Stuff like monologue are meant to be enjoyed in reading media, while anime is more suited for action, like what somewhat already said. Though it is a pity when we can't have the thought process made 100% clear in anime form, but for F/Z, I say it's already doing a lot more monologue than most other adaptations.

Also, I remembered someone mentioning about identities no longer secret or something. Point to note, a known identity of the servant doesn't necessarily give away the Noble Phantasms a servant possesses. Who knows what kind of tricks a servant may still have up his/her sleeve?

[ookamigirl]

Hunting down Caster with quite the incentive.
Rider is one unique character and this time, my favorite.
Caster totally needs to be put down, he's insane through and through.
So Lancer appeared, but will he & Saber be enough to stop him..

[Ragna92]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

Whew, finally caught up!

I've got to say off the bat that I find this series far more interesting than either the FSN or UBW anime. It's like there's more focus on all the ensemble cast this time, more of the servants and the masters shown. The war for the grail feels like a big event, not just some isolated, low-key contest in a small town, but spread more worldwide with many agents acting in it, instead of just a bunch of kids from the same city. The Fate world feels more opened up, it breathes more, is what I'm trying to say.

Anyway, really excited by the episodes so far. Although that little kiss between Maiya and Emiya confused me. Cheating on Iri? Not cool.

Seeing Berserker fight equally with Gilgamesh in ep. 5 made me happy. Still not sure why he's so popular, but at least he's not grinning like a hyena and spouting off rape metaphors this time. Why does he think he's so great anyway? The total territory Gilgamesh ruled was microscopic compared to, say, Alexander's empire (I mean it was just one city), so you'd think he wouldn't be so arrogant in light of that. I also guess the Gilgamesh of this franchise never met Enkidu (maybe?), since he seems more concerned with subjugating the world than performing great deeds so his name will be remembered.

Speaking of Alexander, he's been pretty good for a laugh so far. I like him. It's a nice touch that they have him referring to himself as Iskandar, since over time during his conquests he adopted more and more Persian customs, so it's fitting he would refer to himself by his Persian name. At least, I'm assuming that allusion is what the author was going for.

As for Waver though, heeeee's getting on my nerves a bit.

And Saber in that suit and ponytail. Ugh, my heart. "Adorable king of knights" indeed, Kiritsugu

As for this episode, I'm a bit curious where Caster's master is. He doesn't seem to mind giving his servant total freedom of movement. And seeing Saber getting upset over not being allowed to fight at first brought back some memories What's old is new again, eh?

Gil thinks he's so great because of how powerful he is...... and he is the oldest king so... connect the dots.

[Vicious108]

Very compelling episode on all fronts. Great comedy with Waver and Rider, great character development with Kiritsugu and Irisviel and great action with Saber vs Caster and Kiritsugu vs Kayneth.

I'm looking forward to Rider pulling a resolve power up during his next fight all for the sake of pants.

That was some really nice tension between Kiritsugu and Saber there. It should be very interesting to see how he utilises his Command Spells in the future and I can totally picture him making Saber do something that goes entirely against her beliefs and honour code.

Caster is a very entertaining villain and his facial expressions in this episode were priceless as usual. I gotta wonder if Ryunosuke will ever get the chance to be by his side in battle though. Poor guy's probably home alone pouting over the fact that Saber totally stole his new found best buddy from him. But anyway, Saber vs Caster had a great atmosphere and it was nice to hear the song from the first trailer finally being put to use here in a very well placed manner. Yuki Kajiura was on fire in this episode in general. Not that her background music for non-acton scenes has been any less appropriate and enjoyable, but you just tend to notice more and get even more involved in her awesome battle tracks.

Kiritsugu vs Kayneth was even better though as far as I'm concerned, and a true demonstration of the potential of Master vs Master fights. Kayneth did prove that he can back up all his grandeur and self-promotion, but he's clearly all kinds of screwed now, since there's no way that gun Kiritsugu last whipped out doesn't contain anti-magic properties, in what was a rather cruel but still extremely badass cliffhanger.

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare

Kiritsugu has had pangs of guilt, remorse, and fear in the previous showings (e.g.: EP1 during analysis on Kotomine - he mentioned specifically that he was afraid of Kotomine; EP3 during meeting with Maiya - he felt very sad as he held the Contender and comparing its weight to Ilya; EP5 during Berserker and Lancer's imminent attacks on Saber - he was desperate enough to want to reveal himself to save Irisviel; EP6 during bombing attack - his expression softened very much when he noticed a girl crying and the shock he had when Maiya's phone went static on him).

Exactly. Just because Kiritsugu mostly managed to keep a stoic expression during those moments doesn't mean he wasn't having any trouble enduring them. It seems how hard he's been pushing himself, repressing his feelings and bottling up his emotions has gone over the heads of some, hence their surprise at him externalising his feelings in this episode. I guess I can understand finding it to be a rather sudden outburst, since it directly followed a scene where he displayed his usual cool-headed demeanour perfectly, but that's just how badly it was tearing him apart from the inside that he couldn't help but open up to Irisviel the first chance he had to be alone with her.

And it seems some people are forgetting how wrong things went for Kiritsugu in the previous episode. Not only did he fail to kill Kayneth, it turns out his actions had been completely seen through and anticipated by Kotomine, who made it apparent enough that he's personally targeting Kiritsugu now. So not only did his plan fail, perhaps due to his softness compared to his pre-meeting the Einzberns self that made him utilise arson to get everyone to evacuate the building first, he also completely fell for his most feared enemy's bait and almost lost Maiya to him. That's how close Kotomine got to one of those closest to Kiritsugu, which makes the latter realise that soon Irisviel too will likely be placed under the same danger. That's what makes him considering running away for a second, but Iri proves to be a very understanding wife and knows that no matter he would never be able to abandon his ideal.

Originally Posted by Haak

Also did anyone else get LancerxSaber vibes?

Only now? Those two have been in need of a room as far back as episode 4. Poor Caster, having to watch his precious pseudo-Jeanne flirt with another hero right in front of him.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Oh yeah it seems Keyneth El Melloi was scared shitless at what Kiritsugu did.

Notice the guy who touched the mercury ball repeating he better get out of there. That's likely Melloi making contact and then taking control.

Um, how exactly is that supposed to indicate Kayneth was scared shitless? He simply shielded himself and hipnotised a guy to more stealthily make his escape from what was clearly a disadvantageous situation for him.

[Haak]

Anyway, I sympathise with Caster mistaking Saber for Jeanne D'Arc. They do have the same seiyuu after all.

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by Ragna92

Gil thinks he's so great because of how powerful he is...... and he is the oldest king so... connect the dots.

Even if it was true he was the first king (he's not, there are many other names before his on the Sumerian king list), does that imply that a servant's strength stems from how ancient their legends are? (sorry if that's common knowledge, I haven't read the VNs or anything). If that's the case then yes, I suppose it makes sense for him to be the strongest.

Although I'm also curious about his noble phantasm regardless of that. Noble phantasms come from the spirit's legend right? Like Arthur and Excalibur. Alexander and Bucephalus. Makes perfect sense. Now it's been a while since I read Gilgamesh, but I can't remember anything related to the Gates of Babylon, or a huge number of blades. Was it just an artistic choice to make that his noble phantasm? Because I can't recall what in the epic would explain its origin.

[sento]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

Even if it was true he was the first king (he's not, there are many other names before his on the Sumerian king list), does that imply that a servant's strength stems from how ancient their legends are? (sorry if that's common knowledge, I haven't read the VNs or anything). If that's the case then yes, I suppose it makes sense for him to be the strongest.

Although I'm also curious about his noble phantasm regardless of that. Noble phantasms come from the spirit's legend right? Like Arthur and Excalibur. Alexander and Bucephalus. Makes perfect sense. Now it's been a while since I read Gilgamesh, but I can't remember anything related to the Gates of Babylon, or a huge number of blades. Was it just an artistic choice to make that his noble phantasm? Because I can't recall what in the epic would explain its origin.

It's explained in Fate/stay night. To remain spoiler free, I will only tell you that is based on "He who owns everything" controversial line of the epic.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

does that imply that a servant's strength stems from how ancient their legends are?

They say in FSN that a Servant's strength increases the more well known their legend is. The age of said legend is unimportant, but it does usually assist in granting a wider spread of knowledge of them.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Haak

That emotional scene with Kiristugu and Irisviel kinda felt a bit sudden and out of nowhere and I was kinda annoyed at what was obvious censoring but otherwise it was another great episode. Major cracks are already appearing between Kiritsugu and Saber, but I'm surprised Irisviel didn't speak up for her or even just try to console her like she did at the begginning. Kiritsugu fighting Kayneth was pretty damn cool and the music is really getting great now. The bit when the trailer music plays as Saber fought those monsters was particularly memorable. About the Irisviel and Kiritsugu moment, and found it telling when Irisviel hesitated when she said "Maiya". A possible issue later on perhaps?

Oh yeah, and the whole Pants and Rider moment was pretty funny.

Also did anyone else get LancerxSaber vibes?

Why was it out of nowhere? Cause he's been a robot for the past 6 or so episodes? I mean he was having an argument and then they went outside and he decided to open up a bit. Would you rather he just stay a Tin Man for the rest of the show then? I'm just trying to understand why this scene was in any way a bad or random thing or why anybody would ever see it that way.

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by sento

It's explained in Fate/stay night. To remain spoiler free, I will only tell you that is based on "He who owns everything" controversial line of the epic.

You mean the FSN anime? Crap, I must not remember that part. Although, isn't the line in the epic "He who saw everything?" Guess it's the same meaning either way.

Originally Posted by GDB

They say in FSN that a Servant's strength increases the more well known their legend is. The age of said legend is unimportant, but it does usually assist in granting a wider spread of knowledge of them.

Still, even by that logic he shouldn't be the most powerful in the modern world. The epic was pretty much only rediscovered in the 19th century, so by that token something like the Iliad or maybe even King Arthur should be more famous these days.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

Still, even by that logic he shouldn't be the most powerful in the modern world. The epic was pretty much only rediscovered in the 19th century, so by that token something like the Iliad or maybe even King Arthur should be more famous these days.

Well, you have to remember, Gilgamesh is arrogant as hell. Even if he weren't the strongest, he'd still say he was the strongest. Especially since he has an entire armory at his disposal.

[sento]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

You mean the FSN anime? Crap, I must not remember that part. Although, isn't the line in the epic "He who saw everything?" Guess it's the same meaning either way.

That's why it's controversial, it was translated in various ways (He who saw everything, He who owns everything, He who reached the end of the world...)

And yes, older means "powerful" in Nasuverse. That's why Heroic Spirits from the "Age of Gods" are normally really serious business. And Gil is probably the strongest Heroic Spirit overall.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Why was it out of nowhere? Cause he's been a robot for the past 6 or so episodes? I mean he was having an argument and then they went outside and he decided to open up a bit. Would you rather he just stay a Tin Man for the rest of the show then? I'm just trying to understand why this scene was in any way a bad or random thing or why anybody would ever see it that way.

I guess it was because I expected him to be having an argument about Saber, not about wanting to run away. It had nothing to do with the actual emotion involved. I just thought the transitioning and resolution was rather weird and far too quick. I mean he goes from normal to breakdown to normal again in mere seconds. And although I can see why you think he's been a bit of a Tin Man up until this point, since I read the first novel I don't feel that way, since we had his POV a lot and we were given a greater insight into his emotions.

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by GDB

Well, you have to remember, Gilgamesh is arrogant as hell. Even if he weren't the strongest, he'd still say he was the strongest. Especially since he has an entire armory at his disposal.

Right, but he certainly does seem to be the strongest.

Originally Posted by sento

That's why it's controversial, it was translated in various ways (He who saw everything, He who owns everything, He who reached the end of the world...)

And yes, older means "powerful" in Nasuverse. That's why Heroic Spirits from the "Age of Gods" are normally really serious business. And Gil is probably the strongest Heroic Spirit overall.

I guess his noble phantasm makes sense with that line. But still, it feels like a more tenuous connection between his legend and his noble phantasm than goes for the other Servants.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Haak

I guess it was because I expected him to be having an argument about Saber, not about wanting to run away. It had nothing to do with the actual emotion involved. I just thought the transitioning and resolution was rather weird and far too quick. I mean he goes from normal to breakdown to normal again in mere seconds. And although I can see why you think he's been a bit of a Tin Man up until this point, since I read the first novel I don't feel that way, since we had his POV a lot and we were given a greater insight into his emotions.

Yeah I guess it's true that his level of emotions kind of went up and down a little wildly, but I sort of chalked that up to him quickly opening up and then recomposing himself back into the hard exterior he projects. I appreciated the effort though at giving us just a glimpse at something I was actually starting to wonder was there under the surface or not. It's more than I've seen from him in...well ever really.

[Moekou]

Age and fame are both important elements.

Gilgamesh is so powerful because the Epic of Gilgamesh is the oldest heroic epic to survive to this day, thus making him the godfather of heroic epics, or King of Heroes as he goes by in this series. Whether or not he was actually the first king, or his actual accomplishments, are fairly irrelevant compared to this. The term "Epic Heroes" is named after heroic epics and he's got dibs on that.

Saber is very powerful because King Arthur is fairly well known in Japan, thanks to JRPGs and other media throwing Excalibur into everything. By comparison, Gilgamesh is obscure but his status as the main character of the oldest heroic epic still makes him the strongest.

The power of age is especially evident in magic. FSN Caster wasn't even considered much of a real witch back her days, but what was once simple kitchen hocus pocus in the Age of the Gods is supreme magic by current timeline standards, since modern magic is far, far inferior to magic from the past. I think this due partially to the advance of science. In the Fate universe most things arcane are powered by belief, after all.

The very existence of Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Zero is empowering these characters further! Horray meta logic!

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by Moekou

Age and fame are both important elements.

Gilgamesh is so powerful because the Epic of Gilgamesh is the oldest heroic epic to survive to this day, thus making him the godfather of heroic epics, or King of Heroes as he goes by in this series. Whether or not he was actually the first king, or his actual accomplishments, are fairly irrelevant compared to this. The term "Epic Heroes" is named after heroic epics and he's got dibs on that.

Ok, that makes sense.

Saber is very powerful because King Arthur is fairly well known in Japan, thanks to JRPGs and other media throwing Excalibur into everything.

Wait, are you saying only their popularity in one country matters?

[Geburah]

Yes, terrain also gives bonus to Heroic Spirits. The more well know the Hero is in the place the greater his stats. It was ever stated how much bonus they gain, but word of God put an example between Zero and Fate Lancers

Spoiler:

Zero Lancer vs Lancer not using his NPs wins Zero Lancer, unless fight in Ireland were Lancer wins over Zero thanks to fame bonus

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Zefris

I thought Saber's behavior was a bit contradicting this episode. She showed too much emotion for kids being hostage in an encounter. You would think that as a King who leads a country, you'll have no choice but to sacrifice them and look at the bigger picture in a war. Also, there was the other point how she was betrayed by her own country because (IIRC) her people saw her as a king "who did not know of human emotions".

I think it was the children. If they were adults, I think Saber would have held her composure more. But hurting little children like that... that is one scene I do not look forward to watching on the BD release.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Also, I don't think Kiritsugu would be the one to kill Kayneth, some how it should be more poetic to have Waver be the one to surpass his teacher.

There is no way Kayneth is dead this early. The question is what is going to happen to him from Kiritsugu's unique gun.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

btw no one is mentioning that Kiritsugu is sending his wife away with his mistress?

I had a little laugh at that myself. But it is important for the harem to get along with each other, haha.

Originally Posted by Xacual

At least it's not what you'd normally think of when it comes to a time manipulation power because he's only effecting time inside his own body. So he makes it run even faster or slows it down. Kayneth realized what he was doing after one glance which shows how good Kayneth is at least at recognizing magecraft.

The good thing is that there is always a cost to doing something in the Nasuverse, no matter how minor or major it may be.

Originally Posted by Haak

Anyway, I sympathise with Caster mistaking Saber for Jeanne D'Arc. They do have the same seiyuu after all.

I love how Urobuchi/Nasu chose for Caster to mistake Saber as Joan since that was what 99% of the fan base thought she was while they played the game.

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by Geburah

Yes, terrain also gives bonus to Heroic Spirits. The more well know the Hero is in the place the greater his stats. It was ever stated how much bonus they gain, but word of God put an example between Zero and Fate Lancers

Spoiler:

Zero Lancer vs Lancer not using his NPs wins Zero Lancer, unless fight in Ireland were Lancer wins over Zero thanks to fame bonus

So Arthur's popularity bonus in Japan is offset by Gilgamesh's seniority bonus, despite his not being as popular there?

Sounds like a complicated system.