2017-09-09, 08:23 | Link #521 |
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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If two characters work well as close friends/partners it means they got everything right to became good lovers. People who can't work well as friends/partners wouldn't make good lovers either.
Well, I myself am fine with her dying as long as it will not turn to be means for Chamille and Ikta getting together. You are saying it's not that case, but until end of novel (or death of one of them) that's not given. Until then you are just forcing you opinion without any basis here.
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2017-09-09, 08:51 | Link #522 | |
図書館狼
Join Date: Jul 2013
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Tell you what, even if that was the case, that wouldn't change even a slight bit about everything Yatori's death brought to the table for both characters and plot. Stop denying peoples' argument as being "forcing an opinion" when everything we've read support it rather than supporting the other interpretation.
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2017-09-09, 10:07 | Link #523 |
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I don't insist on anything. If you read my post properly you would notice that I say both is on table. And yes I do agree it would be cheap that's my issue with it. Killing Ikta in the end would be probably best for story. Getting him hooked with Suya and retire in the end would be fine too, noone would suspect Yatori was killed for her. But again problem still is that possibility is on table, no matter how much you dismiss it.
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2017-11-23, 14:37 | Link #530 | |
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2017-11-23, 23:41 | Link #532 |
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Join Date: Sep 2017
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Flawed?
The biggest issue she had going on with her character arc was her conflicting loyalty between her family and the Empire. Not much to go on, methinks, since its neither unique nor in depth to soldier Yatori. Of course, she has her other tropey characteristics like how she's a human weapon, how everyone BUT Ikta is afraid of her, etc. but all that just reinforces the idea that she's a LN character, at least in my view. And a tragic hero can still be a Mary Sue. Ikta? He accomplishes *impossible* things, true, but well-justified enough that it doesn't seem out of place or that the author had to a**pull and rely on some mysterious Sueish powers (Yatori's superpowered rampage certainly comes to mind) to get Ikta to save the day. And Chamille? She is the furthest away from a Mary Sue as can be. Maybe we have too different a definition of a Mary Sue, methinks. From fanlore, (edited) A character may be judged Mary Sue if she is competent in too many areas wrg, is physically attractive, and/or is viewed as admirable by other sympathetic characters. How is Chamille ever viewed in a more positive light than Yatori ever was? Even her competence is currently limited only to the realm of politics (and even than, that may backfire at times - remember her initial attempts at manipulating Ikta?) - Yatori still remains a larger motivating factor than Chamille for Ikta, for all her 'flaws' and, in my opinion, in spite of, all her stupid decisions that ultimately led to her death. |
2017-11-24, 02:54 | Link #533 |
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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Then let me ask you. What did Yatori accomplished? How many named characters were dedicated to her?
Yatori never had any of her wishes fulfilled, much less being embodiment wishes of author or anyone else. Was she admired? Sure, for good reasons, but she was never fawned or idealised by others. She may be correct but she was never "right" and story heavily empathised that. MSs are opposite of Yatori, they are always right even if they are not and story itself make sure accommodate them to make it happen. That makes Ikta and Chamille much closer to MS Also you say "stupid" decision, but that's not really case. Her choices were always in line with her being Igsem. As long as she were one, there weren't any alternatives.
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Last edited by Tenzen12; 2017-11-24 at 03:07. |
2017-11-24, 05:04 | Link #534 | |||
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This is clearly not the case for both Ikta and Chamille, who follow up on their decisions despite the resistance they face from their fellow friends, comrades, etc., whilst being aware, yet disregarding, of the sacrifices necessary for their decisions, and whose actions shall only be deemed right from their (and the audience, but I contend that MS should only be judged from the perspective of a person of the universe the MS is in, otherwise all heroes are MS by definition) point of view. In general, MS tend to exemplify traits and tropes from the first, with an occasional smattering of the second, while almost nothing from the third of the points I noted above. Quote:
To be fair, I think Uno Bokuto's decision to off her was somewhat made for the shock value in an attempt to distinguish himself from contemporary war-driven light novels like Youjo Senki, or Altina the Sword Princess. And I personally don't think he'll keep her out for the rest of the novel. Color me surprised if we don't get a resurrection arc + an Evil!MindControl!Amnesia!Yatori arc somewhere in the making. That said, I still think that her (current? temporary?) death was warranted enough that it shouldn't detract from the story, but rather enhance it. And if there is a revival scene later, I just hope that Yatori comes back as a more intriguing character rather than her current 2d-state. Last edited by deus-misereatur; 2017-11-24 at 05:05. Reason: Typo |
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2017-11-24, 06:16 | Link #535 |
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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- There were no"face heel turn" Yatori loyalty never lied with Ikta and co. foremost. At most you can say she was heel all along. And all comrades did side with Ikta to stop her. Noone went "Yatori is so awesome. I have to join her and her family"
- Yes they do face opposition, but people who disagree are usually "bad guys"... or wrong. Mind you I never said these two actually are MS, just that they are much closer than Yatori who was from very beginning portraits as someone who has no room for free will. - Being static was point. She was interesting because she was static. That was her fatal flaw and big part what drove Ikta to be dynamic. She would need change to ever obtain happiness, but you can't do that as corpse. - Depending on author intents, killing Yatori might turn be terrible decision, with random resuscitation arc be only possible development that could be actually worse. Even if Uno might mess story badly I doubt he would go that far.
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2017-11-24, 07:22 | Link #536 | |||
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I can't say really whether Alderamin might suffer from the offing of Yatori. Personally, I felt that the anime did more damage than anything else to the brand name. Did you watch it? Did you like it? |
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2017-11-24, 07:57 | Link #537 |
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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You are mistaking static characters with simple ones. That's not necessarily true. At some point all characters reach their "final form" as they mature. At that point they know what they are doing and why. Because they may be predictable at times (but hardly always) they can be depended on. They can act as anchor in chaotic world yet often show new facet you didn't know despite being there all along.
Using immature protagonists is usual way for stories targeting teenagers as they are "incomplete" and inexperienced themselves, but it's neither only nor necessarily best way to write characters in general.
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2017-11-24, 08:51 | Link #538 | ||
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Also, even 'adult' (I take umbrage at the fact that you seem to think that age or maturity is a determining factor as to whether the reader 'gets' a character or not - a poorly written character that undergoes no growth whatsoever is still a poorly written character, whether (s)he be read by a teenager or an adult) stories have characters that undergo proper development - surely you can't deny that the main characters of LotR or even the GoT series are (a) characters that undergo growth, and (b) characters that appeal to far more than just 'teenagers'. As a side note, can you name me more stories that utilizes the 'static' character as you put it as its protagonist? I'm interested to see how such a story might retain its entertainment value when the character the story is revolves around simply does not change and/or progress as how a normal human would. |
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2017-11-25, 15:34 | Link #540 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
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Let's see. Few good examples of "finished" characters, huh. Here is few.
Kamijou Touma Aoki Yoshifume Granny Weatherwax Peter Pan Gandalf (change of colour scheme doesn't count) Kazuma the Shell Bullet. Gerhardt von Waldstein Flat Escardos Aslan
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fantasy, historical, military science fiction, statecraft, tearjerker, tragedy |
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