2013-08-11, 01:42 | Link #8561 | ||||||
Goat Herder
Author
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 36
|
Already did.
Quote:
As for the actual event, my hypothesis is that whatever major shockwaves that would've killed Waltfeld hit Aisha first, diminishing them as her body absorbed the kinetic impact, killing her first. Nevertheless, they should have, and for a while, did die in the explosion. Quote:
Quote:
Coordinators, on the other hand, have alterations that focus on mental and physical upgrading, as we've seen with Kira Yamato, Athrun Zala, and George Glenn. Quote:
I should not have to explain this. Anyone with a decent education will understand this, both through learning and through actual experiences they've witnessed or taken part in. Quote:
Kira's attack, however, caused the explosions in the cockpit which resulted in said shockwaves killing Stella. This is not a matter of "who dun it?" Kira killed Stella. The narrative reinforced this. It's not really up for debate. Quote:
That's why I said "among" the reasons. I didn't say the ones I listed were all of them.
__________________
|
||||||
2013-08-11, 03:14 | Link #8562 | ||
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Beside, Kira's justification for killing Stella is pretty clear: She was a danger. More importantly, Shinn would've blamed Kira for her death regardless. So there would be no purpose in trying to imply that Kira didn't actually kill Stella, especially when this never became an issue. Quote:
The other difference is that the Destroy's cockpit was damaged. (The strike was said to have an emergency hatch that covered the hole. If the Destroy also had such a system, Stella probably wasn't in the right state of mind to think of using it, and it might've been damaged as well.) |
||
2013-08-11, 07:58 | Link #8563 | ||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
|
No, you just said it. Not the same thing.
Quote:
Impulse did. Freedom did not. Kira shut off his power source before the shockwave hit him... Notice this shockwave was many, many, MANY orders of magnitude greater than any shockwave Stella may or may not have had to deal with in her case. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Notice, not did. CAN. Quote:
Quote:
Hell, "heavily reinforced" isn't really proven either. Quote:
The narrative largely ignores the subject of WHAT killed her. It isn't the first time it does it either... Quote:
This is why I repeat myself. Because you keep not understanding what you're arguing against. Quote:
It wouldn't be the first time. As far as the show is concerned it doesn't matter who killed Shinn's parents and it doesn't matter who ordered the hit on Lacus. In all three events we are given plenty of circumstantial evidence in a certain direction and in all three events the REAL answer is completely irrelevant. Quote:
I am saying there is no certainty that he DID. So when someone lists off the number of people Kira killed, leaving her out of it isn't necessarily wrong. LaGOWE, Strike, Freedom and Gouf all had damaged cockpits... Freedom had much more powerful and dangerous shockwaves. Last edited by Deadpool2000; 2013-08-11 at 08:12. |
||||||||||
2013-08-11, 09:39 | Link #8564 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
|
Deadpool, why are you trying so hard in trying to say there is no proof Kira killed Stella?
No one here is using Stella's death as a way to say, " Look at Jesus Yamato's hypocrisy! He killed someone when he states he doesn't want to kill people!" No one is trying to hate on Kira for killing Stella. We all know he will kill people if it is absolutely necessary. No one is attacking him for that. I don't get why you're trying so hard in trying to say it isn't clear who killed Stella because Kira's beam saber didn't go through her body..... The show doesn't have to put a sign on Stella's head/body saying, " Kira killed me" to show the viewer who killed her because people that have a brain can connect Kira stabbing fully charged cannon+ internal explosions= Stella killed by Kira. Or doesn't have to have a graphic showing Kira's kills.... Next you're going to argue Kira didn't kill Rau.... It was Genesis.... Last edited by quagmire; 2013-08-11 at 09:51. |
2013-08-11, 11:01 | Link #8565 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
|
Yeah pretty much. Nobody's saying Kira was wrong for killing her. In fact Shinn wrong for prioritizing the saftey of one very dangerous individual and giving her special treatment because she set off his sister issues over the city she was blowing up.
But he pretty clearly dealt the finishing blow, even if Shinn helped early on. And Shinn acts as if Kira killed her, and Kira acts like he killed her. So there's really no debate here. It's not like with Kira killing Shinn's family, which is irrelevant because Shinn didn't see it, and Shinn doesn't react in any way. Shinn clearly blames Kira for her death. |
2013-08-11, 11:47 | Link #8566 | |||
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Quote:
1. Regarding the death of Shinn's family, Shinn never knowingly confronted the people who directly caused the explosion that killed his family and he blamed Orb, and especially the Atthas, and not any particular pilot. 2. Regarding the attempted assassination on Lacus, while there could be several possible suspects to whoever ordered that mission, the only one affected in the story is Durandal, by giving Kira and company a reason not to trust him, especially with the fake Lacus. 3. Regarding Stella's death, while you might believe that it is inconclusive to say what/who killed Stella, the only one affected in the story, again, is Kira. The point being, in each of the above cases, while there might not be hard evidence to point to the respective culprits, the story dictates that it is only in the first case where we see that it truly doesn't matter who killed Shinn's family because the point there is that Shinn blamed the Athhas/Orb/war in general. With the other two cases, we are given prime suspects and they both suffered the consequences without anything of substance to the contrary being offered. As such, even if it may not hold up in a court of law, it is enough to establish causation in the context of a fictional story. Quote:
|
|||
2013-08-11, 11:59 | Link #8567 |
Goat Herder
Author
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 36
|
He's just trying to wash blood off of Kira's hands, basically. This is the same guy who claimed that Kira's death wouldn't have affected the events of SEED whatsoever, so I'm not expecting much in the way of rationality here.
Deadpool2000, here's the thing: Kira killed Stella. There is nothing changing this simple fact. The story treated it as Kira having killed Stella and the consequences of what happened after the event treated it as Kira having killed Stella. And for your information, Stella's physiology changes were chemical and hormonal related. Without knowing what drugs were used in her system and what devices were used, the Minerva's crew had no way of helping her. She was not changed at a genetic level, like any other Coordinator in the show. ALSO for your information, Kira shut off the reactor after the explosion, it appears, and as such it still had Phase Shift armor active when the explosion hit. And even then, whatever shockwaves produced by the blast would've been absorbed my the Freedom, very much reducing the impact Kira would've felt. And if the explosion came up from behind the Impulse, the Impulse itself would've taken the brunt of the impact. Stella wasn't burned because she was in a heavy-duty pilot suit, and pilot suits are typically designed for outer space usage, and since many mobile suits can perform atmospheric reentry, not to mention the pods and the like that perform atmospheric reentry, the pilot suit would've been able to handle the heat from the explosions. Kinetic impacts from shockwaves on the other hand are a different story entirely. Shinn did not kill Stella. The Minerva did not kill Stella. Neo did not kill Stella. Kira did. Kira killed Stella. Get. Over. It. The reason the show did not mention shockwaves is because it didn't have to. A show doesn't require to spell out every single tiny detail from every single tiny action. People are supposed to be intelligent creatures, so this isn't hard to figure out for yourself. You have a brain. Use it for once.
__________________
|
2013-08-11, 13:57 | Link #8572 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
|
For what it's worth, Shinn is the only one in the show that stated Kira is the one who killed her, no matter how biased it was. The thing is, the show didn't make any attempt to deny his statement. it's true that the show did not explicitly stated or give any hard evidence on who is the culprit, but the show didn't bother denying the accusation too.
From narrative perspective, "Stella have to be killed by Kira" for the story to develop (giving Shinn the strongest motivation for targeting Kira as his primary enemy). Without that premise, the story probably wouldn't go as what we have now. Food of thought here, would he be able to beat Freedom if Kira wasn't the one who killed her ? Durandal probably laughed this whole convenient event, too bad Shinn not only failed to kill him but the victim also came back stronger with his new toy |
2013-08-11, 16:45 | Link #8573 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
|
Oh of course not. He only viewed Freedom a nuisance until Stella died. And even when he's training and claiming its only because Freedom is so strong so it makes a good practice opponent, he says outright he'll make Freedom pay for killing Stella as soon as Athrun steps out of the room. Had that not happened he'd have never have trained, and Freedom would have gotten out of Angel Down unscathed assuming Durandal ordered it at all (he almost certainly did because Rey told him of Shinn's hate on for Freedom and his recent training as everyone else was taken aback that he suddenly ordered an attack on AA after spending an whole episode declaring the Logos was their true enemy)
It's almost frustrating how well that went for Durandal (and how well basically everything went for Durandal for the whole damn war up until the finale when he finally started showing his true colors to the world). Kira kills Stella, and Stella was only there because of Logos. That makes her a perfect martyr for Durandal to use to trigger Shinn to attack anyone related to either of them, both of whom are the greatest obstacles in his plan. It also killed any chance of Shinn being swayed by the Clyne Faction, because they by association killed Stella. And at the end of the day, Stella, the only thing not under his control that Shinn had empathy for was eliminated, removing something that could have strayed Shinn from the path Durandal wanted. In effect Kira basically did Durandal's dirty work for him. Granted in the end Angel Down while making Shinn look good, was pointless, and only made things worse for Zaft. It destroyed Freedom and forced AA to lie low for awhile, but Kira would have retired Freedom after Angel Down anyway in favor of his new SF, and he and AA had zero intentions of interfering with Angel Down anyway. In fact it only served to cripple the Clyne Faction when Zaft actually needed them, as they could have stopped Djbril when he entered Orb before any battle broke out, by moblizing AA and Freedom and forcing him out at gunpoint, giving him to Zaft and saving them political strife with Orb and stopping Requiem (although THAT worked out to Durandal's favor as well). But instead they couldn't get AA repaired and SF from space until the battle had already started and Djbril had begun his escape, at which point a non violent solution was too late, and they'd obviously opt to prioritize Orb from falling under Zaft control. |
2013-08-11, 16:50 | Link #8574 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
|
Quote:
XD To actually contribute: During the Freedom/Impulse fight the Freedom also fell into the water, so that helped a ton in Kira surviving (though he would have died if Cagalli had not gone out to rescue him) |
|
2013-08-11, 17:36 | Link #8575 | ||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
|
Quote:
b) Irrelevant. You may think me a fool if you'd like, that is your prerogative. But if a fool says the sky is blue, IT IS STILL BLUE. Ad hominem is generally the last refuge of those grasping for straws. Try to argue the point instead. Have you devolved to simple "Nah huh, you are wrong" arguments? If it is so guaranteed, prove it. Don't say so, show so. Quote:
Here's a fun exercise: Pretend that Shinn is the one who killed her. How does the story change? Quote:
Quote:
It would appear he shut it off AS the sword pierced the reactor, which would have turned the reactor off and cut off his power before the explosion hit. Quote:
It is also 100% conjecture with no basis other than your wanting to win this argument. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Allow me to dissuade the three of you of this dillusion: I have made no mention of how this informs the viewer of Kira's morality. I haven't spoken of his honor, of his holiness, of his moral fiber nor the bismirching of ANY of it. I made a very simple statement. Some of you have complained about how often I've repeated it, but considering how you keep arguing against statements I never made I feel that they bear repeating: Quote:
Quote:
Consider: Durandal orders the kill on Lacus. Consequence? Kira suspects Durandal because they are coordinator special ops. He goes into hiding, distrusts Durandal's motives enough not to throw in with the Minerva, go searching for evidence and evnetually find out about the Destiny plan. They disagree with it, and when Durandal starts nuking people who disagree with it, they kick his ass. Joe Schmoe, Crazy Stalker Extraodinare orders the kill on Lacus. Consequence? Kira suspects Durandal because they are coordinator special ops. He goes into hiding, distrusts Durandal's motives enough not to throw in with the Minerva, go searching for evidence and evnetually find out about the Destiny plan. They disagree with it, and when Durandal starts nuking people who disagree with it, they kick his ass. Kira killed Stella. Consequence? Shinn blames Kira because he landed the last blow on the Destroy. He attacks and shoots him down during Operation Angel Down. Asbestos Poisoning killed Stella. Consequence? Shinn blames Kira because he landed the last blow on the Destroy. He attacks and shoots him down during Operation Angel Down. Both events the "true culpirt" is inconsequential. Literally. I would say that is the point of the two events. We get to compare and contrast the two characters and how differently they react to similar stimuli. We also get a nice message that sometimes, in the chaos of war, the truth isn't as important as how people react to the truth. Which ties in nicely into how the war got started in the first place (Zala loyalists drop Junius Seven on Earth and they blade all coordinators for it). I would argue the show isn't just vague, it is PURPOSEDLY vague. It was making a point. Several actually. Quote:
Quote:
We are also undermining the "revenge brings power" trope that so strongly contradicts one of the major themes of the CE universe... |
||||||||||||
2013-08-11, 18:31 | Link #8576 | ||||||||||||
Praise the sun!
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sweden
Age: 34
|
Quote:
Broken cockpit on the Destroy. Destroy powering up it's triple beam-cannons Kira stabbing said beam cannons HUGE EXPLOSIONS INCLUDING DESTROY FALLING OVER AND EXPLODING SOME MORE Stella being in bad shape. 1 + 1 + 1 = ? Kira killing, Stella dying Shinn hurtin', hear him crying Can you practice what you preach Or would you turn the other cheek? Father father father father help us Send some guidance from above 'Cause people got me, got me questioning Where is the love Where is the love Where is the love Where is the love the love the love and so on. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
" i guess the Neutron jammer-canceller... " #Put on sunglasses " is cancelled " to be on topic: As you said, it seems like he shut off the NJC right as he got stabbed by the AS-sword, or the NJC got hit and the beam saber no longer got enough power. Either way, he somehow turned it off, that much is confirmed. One can always argue that it was either the NJC that said boom, or the Minerva's Tannhauser that made the blast, in the end, we will never know, it's pretty irrelevant since Kira survived it anyhow. Quote:
Also, The cockpits have protection, one can always point out that the magnitude of three giant beam cannons exploding over your head when your cockpit is breached is a entirely different thing than having your mobile suits head/arm shot off. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||||||||||
2013-08-11, 18:31 | Link #8577 | ||||
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Quote:
Just because there is no absolute certainty either way doesn't mean the two scenarios in each event is of equal probability. Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
2013-08-11, 19:18 | Link #8578 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
|
Quote:
In short, the narration didn't deny that Kira is the main cause. I believe because it is not a big deal in the first place, and the show is fine with people perceiving thing that "Kira pulled the trigger". |
|
2013-08-11, 19:27 | Link #8579 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
|
It's worth noting Kira himself realizes he killed Stella. He pulls back after Destroy collapses with a sad "What a tragic waste of life" expression afterwards. And depending on how long he hovered there might have even seen Shinn pull her out.
So if even Kira himself thinks he killed her, then for all intents an purposes he killed her. Arguing exactly who's attack did the fatal damage is just arguing semantics. |
2013-08-11, 22:16 | Link #8580 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
|
as a kira and freedom fan I have to say Kira DID kill her and was perfectly justified in doing so. There were simply too many lives on the line to take his time and let her fire that canon. Shinn's irrational in thinking that there was any other choice. Life and death can require only a single moment's choice. You can't just wait as a canon is about to fire so a guy can convince his crush not to do so when it will go off in only a second.
__________________
|
Tags |
mecha, seed it and weep |
|
|