Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[CBredbeard]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

I think the problem is you are under the assumption Zaft should be totally sympathetic to Orb forces and want to be friends with them. They don't. They don't have the knowledge that we the viewers possess.

Not at all. Rather I think they'd prefer to avoid a fight if they could help it.

WE know that Cagalli agonized over the decision to marry Yuna, only did it because he basically guilt tripped her into it, and opposed siding with the EA, and setting up the Minerva to be taken out. But all Zaft can see is how Luna described it, she set them up to be taken out despite their help, sided with EA despite claiming neutrality, and married and turned over her country to this Seiran guy, then ran off with AA. As far as they can tell Cagalli Yula Atha is a two faced liar who preached nice to them only as far as keeping herself alive on their ship, then threw them to the wolves once she didn't need their help anymore.

Saying that Luna's perspective is the same as ZAFT's perspective is the same as Shinn's perspective is the same as ZAFT's perspective. She might not be as criminally biased as he is, but she's doesn't have anymore of a grasp on what's really going on than he does. Presumably ZAFT would have a better idea since it's actually part of their job.

WE know Kira is a kind man who shoots to disable, doesn't really want to kill anyone, and is only trying to help the world from a threat he sees Durandal as because Durandal sent guys to kill them. Zaft only sees him as this lunatic attacking everyone.

ZAFT knows about Kira's relationship with Cagalli. That he'd assist his sister in accomplishing her goals is not the actions of a lunatic.

WE know the Orb forces hate working for EA. But as far as Zaft can see they are totally fine with helping exterminate Zaft.

They also know that apparently someone from Orb doesn't want to exterminate ZAFT. Someone that has the support of one of the most powerful warships in existence.

Combined with the fact that most of the Minerva crew are rookies who don't know the real story behind the war in Seed, and it's easy to see why they don't see the AA as a good thing.

They don't have much of a reason to see it as a bad thing either. Certainly not enough reason to think it'd be worth fighting and dying over.

Originally Posted by monster

The Freedom, and the Archangel by association, has fired upon a ZAFT ship and caused the deaths of ZAFT lives.

They also saved the Minerva when it was about to be lobotomized by a Murasame.

Furthermore, the sovereign nation that the Archangel claimed association with through Cagalli has officially formed an alliance with ZAFT's enemies and this nation has attacked a ZAFT ship as well. Altogether, that is enough of a reason to consider them enemies of the state.

Not altogether since that's not even half the story.

You are free to think otherwise, but your opinion is irrelevant to the PLANT council.

lol rping

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

A few things. First, a uniform doesn't mean anything. Second, at this point Cagalli's been kidnapped and doesn't have any power in her own country when the Archangel starts pulling that BS again. Third, they're just making it worse on ORB because the assets they're destroying just happen to be ZAFT's. Last I checked, one county's military assets destroying the military assets of another country was an act of war.

A uniform does mean something since it distinguishes you from your enemy and non-combatants. That's the main reason why there's any emphasis on uniforms and emblems being on display, so as to not create friendly fire and chaos in populated areas. Most militaries recognize that it's advantageous for them to follow this rule and only people that want to cause indiscriminate harm break it.

Secondly, Cagalli's authority was intact. Yuna could only countermand her by claiming that it wasn't really her giving those orders.

Thirdly, how someone goes about destroying military assets and the circumstances that they do so does matter. War isn't cut and dry and treating it as such tends to lead to the worst outcomes.

So by YOUR OWN WORDS, the Archangel is a part of ORB's military. Ergo, by the Archangel is engaging in acts of war against ZAFT, ORB is engaging in acts of war against ZAFT.

They're also engaging Orb's military.

Going by your own logic, we have an entity engaged in operations which result in the destruction of ZAFT military assets. Said entity is being operated on behalf of an official faction in military conflict with ZAFT for the purposes of aiding the official faction in military conflict with ZAFT, and... you... don't think they should be treated as a hostile entity?

Not when they claim to represent the country that those military forces come from and that they don't wish for that country and it's military forces to be used against ZAFT.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

ZAFT knows about Kira's relationship with Cagalli. That he'd assist his sister in accomplishing her goals is not the actions of a lunatic.

Nobody in ZAFT aside from people that served with him in the last war, Rey and Durandal even know who Kira Yamato is. None of these people are on Minerva except Rey, who views Kira as an enemy to be destroyed based on his nature alone, so he obviously wouldn't vouch for him, and Athrun. Athrun could have, but he is unable or unwilling to defend their actions until it's too late. And all him defending their actions did was have Durandal decide he was also a threat to the plan and have him framed.

So yeah with nobody on the Minerva to vouch for them, and they themselves not directly explaining their actions, it wasn't going to win them any friends on Minerva.

[Rising Dragon]

Last I checked, they wanted to keep Kira's relationship to Cagalli on the down low. Too many awkward and dangerous questions when it comes to wondering why the lone-child princess of ORB suddenly having a Coordinator brother.

[Aquaman OS]

Orb people seem to know exactly who he is. Yuna knew who he was, and the guys that defected with Amagi immediately recognized him and treated him with utmost respect.

But not Zaft. It was a close kept secret that a coordinator was the pilot of Strike in the first war. Let alone that he piloted the Freedom afterwards.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

A uniform does mean something since it distinguishes you from your enemy and non-combatants. That's the main reason why there's any emphasis on uniforms and emblems being on display, so as to not create friendly fire and chaos in populated areas. Most militaries recognize that it's advantageous for them to follow this rule and only people that want to cause indiscriminate harm break it.

Any hackjob with an ebay account can get a legitimate uniform, just like any hackjob with half a mind can claim they're representing ORB's interests. In fact, the latter is exactly what countless terrorist groups in the Middle East are doing right now.

Secondly, Cagalli's authority was intact. Yuna could only countermand her by claiming that it wasn't really her giving those orders.

Guess what? Cagalli still got countermanded. By kidnapping Cagalli, the Archangel completely ruined her credibility and influence in the entire world's eyes, including ORB's.

Thirdly, how someone goes about destroying military assets and the circumstances that they do so does matter. War isn't cut and dry and treating it as such tends to lead to the worst outcomes.

Except it is cut and dry in this case. Active military assets are destroying the active military assets of another country while the latter is in the middle of military operations. Even the UN Charter recognizes defense against aggression as one of only two legitimate justifications for a signatory nation to declare war, and this is the UN we're talking about. Firing on military assets is what starts three-fourths of every war in history. The Archangel started shooting first. It's the aggressor.

They're also engaging Orb's military.

Oh for the love of... STOP MOVING THE FUCKING GOAL POSTS. You establish the Archangel is a legitimate part of ORB's military, correct? A legitimate part of one country's military fighting it's own country's military is a Civil. War. If you're ZAFT, which side are you going to take more seriously? The collective military officers and government legitimately recognized by its own people, or a lone ship that kidnapped "its own" head of state?

Not when they claim to represent the country that those military forces come from and that they don't wish for that country and it's military forces to be used against ZAFT.

Exactly! It's just that. A claim. There is nothing giving the Archangel any sort of legitimacy here. Absolutely nothing. A rogue ship and crew even "its own" military disowns. A head of state that was kidnapped even her own country says isn't the one giving orders. A pop singer. A pilot whose own best friend is saying "what the hell?!" to, and this is fucking Athrun we're talking about! Like it or not, the Archangel is the aggressor here, and has no legitimacy even inside "its own" nation at the moment.

[quagmire]

Again... The AA was still technically a rogue ship doing what it pleases. It wasn't formally commissioned as an Orb ship until after the battle against ZAFT.

If it was a formally commissioned ship, it would have had a clear command structure. Instead of Murrue offering the captains chair to waltfeld.

Anyway... Alright people time to calm down via Meer's boobs.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/u8n4muC93JU

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[I Fail at Life]

Originally Posted by quagmire

Again... The AA was still technically a rogue ship doing what it pleases. It wasn't formally commissioned as an Orb ship until after the battle against ZAFT.

If it was a formally commissioned ship, it would have had a clear command structure. Instead of Murrue offering the captains chair to waltfeld.

Anyway... Alright people time to calm down via Meer's boobs.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/u8n4muC93JU

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Its sad when the highlight of an episode is 5sec of exposed Meer nipples... And Shinn x Stellar just gives off that Brother x Sister vibe...just akward.

[JShaggy]

Call me picky, but apart from the animators making Meer's nightgown see-through (with added nipples), they also changed the color of Lunamaria's underwear as well in this episode (used to be dark blue in the original; now they're pink).

Why did they want to do an HD remaster of this again?

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by I Fail at Life

Its sad when the highlight of an episode is 5sec of exposed Meer nipples... And Shinn x Stellar just gives off that Brother x Sister vibe...just akward.

Honestly, I felt that Shinn and Stella's relationship was supposed to be of brother/sister. And I also feel that most people go for shipping at the first interaction regardless of how it was meant.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Honestly, I felt that Shinn and Stella's relationship was supposed to be of brother/sister. And I also feel that most people go for shipping at the first interaction regardless of how it was meant.

Say what you will, but Shinn/Stella was handled a hell of a lot better than Shinn/Lunamaria ever was.

[Rising Dragon]

So was Kira/Flay. Didn't stop them from fucking up with relationship depictions as per usual in Gundam.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Yeah, but Stella didn't have Lacus as her competition.

[Rising Dragon]

As far as meaningful pairing-related development, neither did Flay! And we all know what happened there.

[Kuroi Hadou]

No, Flay had Cagalli and Japan's bizarre incest undertones to contend with. Which... might explain some of Shinn/Stella.

[Rising Dragon]

*points right back at the relationship fumble parade of SEED*

[Kuroi Hadou]

When did Athrun/Lacus get incest undertones?

[Rising Dragon]

Athrun/Lacus didn't have any undertones.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Sure it did! They were trapped in a loveless relationship that only came about because convenience. That's the most developed relationship in CE.

[Rising Dragon]

Are you kidding? There wasn't even enough bloody screentime between the two of 'em to even establish that kind of undertone.

[Kuroi Hadou]

When was screentime necessary in making anime relationships viable?