Utawarerumono: Itsuwari no Kamen - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by Alf

If she do that, her happy life will never be back. Of course, her choice doesn't warrant that life will continue.

And her happy life will be back after Tsukuru has been conquered with her help? All I say is if you have decided to participate in an attack on another person, community, or nation, be prepared for them to do the same to you. In an ideal world, every body will get whatever that they want. However, the setting of this story is not that nice. so Kuon either have enough power to bend the world to her will or she will have to make choice. And she made such a shitty choice when it is not even a moral dilemma in the first place.

I dont know about you, but for me, my friends stop being my friends when they decide to attack my community or anything that is dear to me without a just cause.

So much for those Soldiers in the fort opening the gate because they are concerned about her safety. Little did they know that she gives no shit about them or their family and literally guiding the enemy into their country. They should have kept the gate closed and rain arrows on them. Then Kuon wont have to feel worry about her friends anymore since they will be all in a better place. Not sure how she gonna face her deceased real mother though.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Alf

If she do that, her happy life will never be back. Of course, her choice doesn't warrant that life will continue.

Fuck her happy life. it puts her friends out of danger by making them sit out the war, which is the absolute most she can expect without betraying her family and country.

Or she could at least own her selfishness and say she choose her life of one of Yamato's troubleshooters over her duties as a princess and Tuskuru subject. Because her excuse of wanting the war to end makes no sense whatsoever.

Second, understanding Kuon's care for her friends does not mean pity for Haku and group and support invasion.

It means exactly that. She guided them through unguarded routes and actively participated in the torching of Tuskuru supplies. She'd have been less of a traitor if she'd put on a Yamato uniform and wielded a spear with the grunts.

Oh, sure, maybe in her head she isn't betraying anyone. Who knows? But the facts, the physical reality is that she did.

[relentlessflame]

As a side note, I created a Game Comparison thread, and deleted some posts in this thread. If you want to compare between the game and the anime, please go there.

[SeaDoor]

I'm a little embarrassed to ask but would someone mind explaining why the emperor decided to attack Tsukuru in the first place. I guess I kind of missed that.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Magewolf

They show the barrier going down for no reason after the explosion.

The episode was just stupid and Kuon should be charged with treason.

What? The tower the caster was in fell along with the storehouse during the explosion.

Pay attention.

[Geburah]

Originally Posted by SeaDoor

I'm a little embarrassed to ask but would someone mind explaining why the emperor decided to attack Tsukuru in the first place. I guess I kind of missed that.

Basically he discovered that on that land there was the Iceman project lab and want to get his hands on its information on an atempt of finding clues of how to revert people back from blob form

[Xellos-_^]

Does the emperor know what cause the blob transformation in the first place?

[Iron Maw]

Originally Posted by mysterious

. I dont know about you, but for me, my friends stop being my friends when they decide to attack my community or anything that is dear to me without a just cause.

Her friends aren't the ones attacking. This war was started between the Emperor and Tusukuru's leaders. Everyone else at the ground level is just doing their duty or getting caught up right in it. That is it. It would be the same thing if were in reverse. None of the people of either country even know each other let alone have attachment to anyone inside them. Only Kuon does. The People on both sides do care about Kuon's plight in some cases even helped like Aruru or made concussions to her requests when they didn't have to like Munecilka but they have own priorities.

I personally I think it would be best if she just stay out of it really. Or perhaps attempt to create a third faction, but that might happen down the line anyway.

Originally Posted by Geburah

Basically he discovered that on that land there was the Iceman project lab and want to get his hands on its information on an atempt of finding clues of how to revert people back from blob form

Yeah, one of Eight Pillars was sent there at the end of ep 18 to negotiate/demand that for it to handed to over. Tusukuru wouldn't bugle and here we are.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Does the emperor know what cause the blob transformation in the first place?

Doesn't sound like it, otherwise he would stayed far away from it.

[Magewolf]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

What? The tower the caster was in fell along with the storehouse during the explosion.

Pay attention.

Pay attention your self. The tower is not even shaken by the explosion and it is not hit by any debris either. It just falls over.

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

Her friends aren't the ones attacking.

They delivered supply to Yamato and attacked the fort supply storage in the process. Yeah, they are not attacking at all. Spare me the semantic.

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

This war was started between the Emperor and Tusukuru's leaders.

This war was started by Yamato to try to gain access to Tsukuru facility which just happened to be inside Tsukuru's territory. Tsukuru has no obligation whatsoever to allow another country to go inside their country. It would be the same for Yamato.

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

Everyone else at the ground level is just doing their duty or getting caught up right in it. That is it.

Well they worshiped their emperor to much to even question it from the general to the population. Haku can even reject the mission. What is his brother gonna do to him? The old guy is just so longing for his family member to come back. I dont see a chance that the old guy will force Haku to do it.

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

It would be the same thing if were in reverse.

Except this case is not in reverse. And Tsukuru citizens did not worship Hakuro as a god (even though he is the closet thing to it) as far as season 1 showed me.

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

The People on both sides do care about Kuon's plight in some cases even helped like Aruru or made concussions to her requests when they didn't have to like Munecilka but they have own priorities.

I know right, they care about her so much that they plan to take her on a sight seeing trip after war. I bet their destination of choice will be the war-ravaged wasteland of her country. The cries of surviving members would just be liked music to their ears.

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

I personally I think it would be best if she just stay out of it really. Or perhaps attempt to create a third faction, but that might happen down the line anyway.

Or tell her friends to surrender to the Tsukuru or risk dying. Then go back to help her homeland, heck, her family to defend themselves.

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

Yeah, one of Eight Pillars was sent there at the end of ep 18 to negotiate/demand that for it to handed to over. Tusukuru wouldn't bugle and here we are.

Tsukuru has no obligation whatsoever to accept the request. This statement reeks of victim blaming right here.

[Iron Maw]

Originally Posted by mysterious

They delivered supply to Yamato and attacked the fort supply storage in the process. Yeah, they are not attacking at all. Spare me the semantic.

Um what? Supporting the lives of their countrymen does not mean they want war. They just don't want their soldiers to starve and die pointless deaths from hunger. They are make of a best situation for those forced to fight. Kuon and her friends could easily go back home when they were done. Haku is the only who has actually stay and fight. Sematics has nothing to do with it.

This war was started by Yamato to try to gain access to Tsukuru facility which just happened to be inside Tsukuru's territory. Tsukuru has no obligation whatsoever to allow another country to go inside their country. It would be the same for Yamato.

...Which stems from Emperor and Tusukuru leaders not being able find a diplomatic solution during their meeting. Nobody had else in Yamato or Tusukuru had any say it in the dispute.

Well they worshiped their emperor to much to even question it from the general to the population. Haku can even reject the mission. What is his brother gonna do to him? The old guy is just so longing for his family member to come back. I dont see a chance that the old guy will force Haku to do it.

What are you even going on about here? Every country is loyal to it's leaders and follow their edicts as mandate by their laws, unless those leaders threaten the citizens livelyhoods, that's how those societies function. Tusukuru no different than anywhere else. You don't need to be some sort Theocracy for it to be the norm.

Bringing up Haku is pointless. He is not a native of either country, thus has no loyalty to his brother to begin with it. He's only helping out because Oshutoru pleaded with him. If weren't Kuon he wouldn't as conflicted about it participating (remember he dislikes war, but he doesn't want to his allies die either).

Except this case is not in reverse. And Tsukuru citizens did not worship Hakuro as a god (even though he is the closet thing to it) as far as season 1 showed me.

....What does have to do with anything? Do you think people think people not go to war for their Kings? I don't understand. Did Tusukuru become a democracy 20 years ago where a random peasant could have say in such things?

I know right, they care about her so much that they plan to take her on a sight seeing trip after war. I bet their destination of choice will be the war-ravaged wasteland of her country. The cries of surviving members would just be liked music to their ears.

Um, Oooookay. Like nobody even asked Kuon come. In fact the show had entire episode where worried how Koun's feeling on the matter. But hey everything is totally black and white here?

Or tell her friends to surrender to the Tsukuru or risk dying. Then go back to help her homeland, heck, her family to defend themselves.

I like how you ignore everything Munecika (one of the three people running campaign) said about limiting causalities of population, and even listened Kuon request to spare Benwai (which of of course didn't matter in the end since he was stronger, but that is beside the point). But everyone in Yamato all totally baby eaters for delivering supplies to their men so don't starve right?

Her friends in Tusukuru are not going to surrender, she knows that.

Tsukuru has no obligation whatsoever to accept the request. This statement reeks of victim blaming right here.

You're gonna have to point me to a post where I said otherwise. Tusukuru has completely justified reasons for not complying with their request. Emperor the believe he is justified as those labs in Tusukuru have way allow him achieve his long cherish goal of reviving mankind.

I even said that I was Tusukuru side because they aren't the aggressor, I'm noting that Kuon is an unique position among cast unlike everyone else "Yarr! Tusukuru" or "Yarr! Yamato" because they both home to her fill with people have taken care of her and allow to enjoy her life to point.

The only one victim blaming anyone is you. We know real causes of this mess is but your using your bias to attack people who merely doing their duties just as their enemies are.

[mysterious]

How sweet of Munecika trying to limit civilian casualties while she is the aggressor in this war. Doesnt matter how you try to justify Kuon decision though, she is still a traitor to her country. The only reason she is not treat as such is just plot armor.

[Iron Maw]

I'm gonna make this simple. Who ordered the war? Munecika or the Emperor? Who makes decisions that govern the direction and actions of the country? Munecika or the Emperor?

The only thing Munecika is responsible for besides actually winning the conflict is the conduct of her soldiers and the treatment of her enemies. She has been shown nothing be a respectable commander and decent person unlike some her colleagues Vurai or Dekopowhatever. Your reaching like hell if your trying to vilify her when you have no basis for it. There no reason to believe she won't treat POWs well.

She following the orders of liege just as Benwai and Kurou has done countless times. Their no different from each other in that respect, beyond who they serve.

And whether Kuon is considered a traitor depends on how Tusukuru see it. But what has been shown so far doesn't like either Aruruu, Kamyu or Karuna do. Take that as you will.

[erneiz_hyde]

Kurou laughed at the notion of Kuon being a traitor. Maybe I should too.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

Um what? Supporting the lives of their countrymen does not mean they want war. They just don't want their soldiers to starve and die pointless deaths from hunger. They are make of a best situation for those forced to fight. Kuon and her friends could easily go back home when they were done. Haku is the only who has actually stay and fight. Sematics has nothing to do with it.

It's not about what they want. It's about what they do. Which is, de facto, actively support Yamato's invasion of Tuskuru. No less than the spear bearers. So, yes, saying they aren't attacking is just a petty semantic matter.

[Iron Maw]

So then does that mean Aruruu and Kamyu are traitors too for letting them passed to feed the soldiers? That they also support Yamato's invasion?

[Anh_Minh]

Arguably. It depends on what Tuskuru actual strategy is (I don't think they want Yamato too desperate) and how much leeway they have in its implementation.

[Tong]

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

So then does that mean Aruruu and Kamyu are traitors too for letting them passed to feed the soldiers? That they also support Yamato's invasion?

At least Aruruu's and Kamuy's actions are nowhere as contradicting as Kuon's and have at least some reasoning behind them.
Look, I believe this is just unproper adaptation from the source material, which is why you seem confused about certain things. Anyways, moving on...

Benawi and Kurou arent even the strongest members of Tsukuru and, yet, the former was on par with one of the strongest Generals. I doubt Yamato could have a chance against the likes of Touka, Oboro, Karula, the twin Archers and other beasts, like Kuuya if she still was mentally normal.

[whitecloud]

This choosing remind me of fire emblem fates

[Sinestra]

I love how Kurou basically called Kuon out of her BS by saying if she was serious she could tear the country in two but since she hasnt shes just playing around lol. Regardless of her motives i can not be on her side with this decision. To me she is betraying her country regardless of the reasoning. Trying to end of the war quickly is admirable but who will be victor which side are you supporting to win. Caring about your friends has merit but invasion usually ends up being occupation.

The emperor does not understand he really does not want to wake up Hakuro. He may have lived a long time but he does not seem to understand.

As i said last episode even thought they didnt show it. There was no way Munechika was going to be able to stand toe to toe with Benawei. He was not even tired the problem with the 8 pillar generals is they depend on these masks for overwhelming power. What happens when they cant use them and have to fight an exceptionally skilled warrior. If the fight had continued Benawei would have killed her.

The whole point was to wrap this up before the emperor called Vurai to finish the job. Regardless of this one small victory they are still struggling to make any gains and Tusukuru has even deployed all its forces and generals. So there is a good chance 1 or 2 of the other generals will show up. They suggested that mask nullification does not work on Vurai's mask but i am sure they know this and would have prepared a counter measure. I cant see Tusukuru surrendering and I would never side with the aggressor so i hope Yamato gets their ass kicked.

But with the Emperor dead there is now a lot wild cards in play. Who will succeed him as leader of Yamato and will they continue this quest and war. Too sudden for him to die im sure someone killed him, someone who is trying to capture power for themselves.

I wish i could say i like this season but i really dont its too little too late, it pales in comparison to the first season. Im just finishing it because i cant stand not to finish something.