Shuffle! Episode 24 Discussion

[Moon Eclipse]

I was told to talk about this on the ep 24 discussion... Rimaeda!!! Kaede and Sia are just a fling. It's Rim x Kaede FTW!!!

[Vegeta666]

Originally Posted by Maids! Maids! Maids!
Funny. When I was watching the raw, I thought the dads were flirting with Primula, because they did seem to have uniform fetishes, and this was the first time they saw her in uniform. I didn't get that impression when I saw a subbed version. The dads did behave boorishly during their first school visit, so they may be persona non grata as far as Sis and Nerine are concerned.

As I'm sure you know, translation is a literary endeavor in its own right, and subtle differences can give very different impressions to an audience. For instance, in one translation of Episode 24, I got the impression Asa was in denial about the very poor state of her health as she struggled to get to the place Rin confessed to her. ("I'm O.K.") In another, I got the impression she was well aware of the state of her health, but felt her goal was still achievable. ("I can make it.") There are issues of interpretation here on both my part and on the part of the translators which can shift meaning. Also, the dialogue itself can be confusing -- either by design or by accident.

If Asa refused to use magic simply because she didn't want to make Ama cry, well, it didn't make a bit of sense as a rationale. It was a poor choice of character motivation. If Asa refused to use magic because she felt her mother was horribly mistreated, and, as a result, she was hostile towards magic both in practice and as a concept, I think that's a different story. It's not necessarily a wise choice on Asa's part, but it is one made in principle. The absurd self-contradiction is no longer a factor.

I'm thinking out loud now (with a keyboard and a fast Internet connection). Why did Asa refuse Rin's suggestion that Kareha heal her foot early on in the series? Ama wasn't around. She didn't have to know. Would it even bother Ama if she she found out? I don't think so. When magic started threatening Asa's health, I'd imagine Ama told her to go ahead and use it. "I won't cry. Have a ball. Turn Itsuki into a frog."

Possibly, the game and anime writers intended an anti-magic principle to be her primary motivation and did a poor job in communicating that. In a past job, I used to take literal Spanish to English translations, and edit them into something readable. I usually had the opportunity to ask the original source "what were you thinking here" or "is this what you meant?" Neither we or the fansubber translators and editors had that opportunity. I'd certainly like to know the writers' thinking on the scene. It seems a single line of dialogue would have brought some sense to the scene.

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates
Good thoughts here. If her actions were based on principle, then i can surely see some weight to her argument. But at this point we can only speculate on the writers thoughts. (though i think you are giving the writers far too much credit here, on how they might have seen it that way.) They simply wrote themselves in a corner and didn't see the hole in it till it was too late.

I think the writers just messed up , pure and simple. My feeling after watching the entire series is that they wrote the series one episode at a time. If they thought about it more and decided to come up with an idea that would work for all 24 episodes, then everything would have been fine. But my feeling is that they didn't think ahead. So when it came time for explanations near the last episodes they just came up with stuff that might have made sense.

[andiyar]

The writers of Shuffle!, for one reason or another, reminded me a bit of the writing team at BEE TRAIN. Largely because the idea of Shuffle seems to be half a show of romantic comedy/harem, the other half primarily drama. They spent the first half playing with the characters and sprinkling hints to what could happen, but not really advancing the overall plot, and then after that they swung into the arc-by-arc treatment of the girls. Go and watch MADLAX or NOIR - same kind of concept, spend the first half setting up and the second half executing.

One small problem... it didn't really work that well here. Regardless of your personal opinions of NOIR or MADLAX, Shuffle!'s writing wasn't at their standard. Largely, I would think, due to the format conversion involved.

I have mixed feelings about the writers of Shuffle! I think that people don't give them enough credit for what they have managed to do, but I do think that they didn't do what they have done as well as they could have. They took a game with multiple mutually exclusive storylines and managed to fashion them into a reasonably consecutive story. For that, they deserve some credit for doing a very hard task at all - I mean, in the game, you pick a character and follow them down the daisy-strewn path, indulge in some minor moral corruption (^^), and bang, you've won one thread of the game. But you can't then go back and start again with another character, as that would involve time travel and some rather weird personal relationship problems.

So the Shuffle! writers deserve a bit of a clap for overcoming that obstacle to some extent. But then, they deserve a few little slaps on the wrist for what they ended up doing with their new and improved Shuffle! story.

I'm guessing, at the start of production, the writing/producing/directing team got together and said, "right, we're doing Shuffle! We'll do half a show of setup, and then we'll do the characters. Who's going to win? Right, Asa. So we'll do them in this order? OK then. Let's go." They would have then made a rough episode-by-episode breakdown (for instance - episode 19, Kaede breakdown). Probably just some short reference points to tell them where they were going.

Then? Production starts, and they're way too busy to write ahead - they're having trouble enough getting the script to the producer and the director on time, so that the VAs can get a one day preview before they record, so the sound guys can spend a day mixing before the episode goes to air. There isn't much margin for error, and as soon as one episode is done, they'd have gone straight on to the next one, based off their notes - "OK, ep 10, beach episode."

This lack of cohesion was fine in the first half of the show - the story was itself very episodic in nature, possessing a getting-to-know-you kind of feel. It started to become a problem during the second half of the show. Sia's arc was well done, as they split it in two - Nerine had to be sandwiched into the middle, and I'm willing to bet that in the middle of writing the first/second Nerine episodes one of the writers said something along the lines of "Shit, we forgot to add X minor plot points back in the first five episodes, so we have to put them in now, and we'll have to cut out Y and make Z happen faster!" The Nerine/Primula arc was very rushed. It was the first casualty of Shuffle!

Sia's arc then picks back up, and we've got the best written arc of the show - it really shows that Sia had the primary role for the first twelve episodes, and that she's had a double helping of episodes after episode 12. Her arc, although a bit odd at times ( ) doesn't feel as hectic. When it resolves, it's well done.

Next comes Asa/Kaede/Asa. The first part was fine, with the beginning of the Asa arc - the date at the amusement park was very well done, especially the reaction of Asa at the end of the episode. Looks promising. Delving into the Kaede arc soon after, and after episode 19 I felt that Shuffle! was going very well through a difficult period. Episode 19, and then episode 20, caused a rather large uproar in the boards, resulting in a rather long and intense discussion period - which was to me a sign that the writers were doing something right, they were making people think and argue and consider. Although a lot of people (say, Kaede fans?) detested episode 20, it was well done for what it was.

Episode 21 flunked it. It really did. There was a rather huge buildup in episode 20, and then 21 just seemed to run out of steam. Reminded me of the Nerine arc - another time that a producer probably realised "we've only got four episodes to go! Write me a conclusion to this, hurry! Can't be more than one episode! Go!" And so the writers did so, and the bubbling situation of episode 20 was resolved. Way too quickly. Not badly but way too fast. The actual events to me were believable - or they would have been, if they were spread out just a little bit more.

Episode 22 was more or less filler. With the letdown of episode 21, this rather irritated me. I think they should have spread episode 21 into half of episode 22, and then brought in the cooldown - we didn't need a breather, the filler ep actually helped to ease the tension - which is bad! It should have been maintained up until the very end. The only real point of angst doesn't come until the end of the episode, where Asa collapses and initiates her final arc. I didn't need to see Nerine in a maid costume, nor did I need to see NekoPrimula. Sure, that was fun - but I'd rather have had better Kaede/Asa fusion.

Episode 23 then, and Asa's rather badly worded hatred of magic. I think it would have been better for her to, say, have hated magic because of the tremendous pain it had caused her mother - magic was for her only linked to pain and death (killing the lab, destroying her mother's life etc) rather than not wishing to make Ama cry. Thus even her own possible pain wasn't as bad as the damage magic could inflict upon others - which she might have seen firsthand if she'd been hanging around Nerine during the first part of Shuffle!

Episode 24... and we're off down the innovative end for a harem anime, but the predictable end for Shuffle! And we hit the second part of the episode and my eyes almost bleed, the art is just that bad. Honestly guys, you had two weeks! Two weeks! Sure, take a week off for Christmas - but don't come back with your first rough drafts and then use them instead of polished drawings! Gah!

I would think, looking at the writing, that not all of the blame rests on the shoulders of 'the writers' either. The director and the producers themselves should shoulder a lot of the blame - it's not easy when you are being directed in how you must express something in such and such a time. I'm sure that the writers of Shuffle! would be able to deliver a series from 21-24 that would have satisfied most of the critics here, including me. But I'd say that the producers and director said "you must do this in this episode. Then this in the next. Then this." And since the director tends to have ad lib control over the script, the cuts, and since he also can send it back and say "that took too long, it needs to be done in seventy seconds, not eighty five" you have an uneasy compromise between when a writer wants to include a particular scene, when a director says "this needs to be in there as well/instead", and when a producer says, rather bluntly, "we can only afford half of that."

Yes, the writers could have done a better job. No denying that. But the director and the producers (the boss and the bean counters) have as much responsibility for how the episodes turned out as the writer. Script guys only do the script - not the voices, the on the spot changes, and definitely not the animation. That's all, ultimately, the province of the director. And the director can only do what he can within his production budget. Sacrifices have to be made, unfortunately. And it was those sacrifices, as the budget grew tighter towards the end (which is very clearly evidenced in the pacing of the show, and in the slow degrading of the animation - especially episodes 23 and then the Evil™ which is 24) that shaped Shuffle! into what it finished as.

I'm just hoping that they make enough off the sales of the DVD to both reanimate episode 23 and 24 (especially 24) and then perhaps, if they do an OVA style ending, to redo the Asa arc as well as animating the other arcs. Although I could live with just a 'remastered' episode 23 and 24 - change a few lines of dialogue, expand on Asa's fear and hatred of magic, get the people who did the first half of the show back to reanimate the last half with several week deadlines instead of two day jobs (or ten minute ones!) and we'll have an ending that, although not pleasing to all, would be better than what we have now.

It might happen. I'm not holding my breath though - there are other shows to watch now. I'll rewatch Shuffle! when Froth-Bite finishes releasing all their episodes, and I'll buy it if it is licensed (and especially if it is remastered), but until then? I'm watching Fate/stay night. ^_^

Best all,


-Andiyar

[grey_moon]

I recon that the SiaxKaeda kiss was her putting her polygamy plan into action

[monir]

So, the best coupling for the series was shown in the ending theme. How very unfair. At least I can stare at Kamui's avy as long as he keeps it up there while pretending to be reading his post. *gives Kamui a cookie.

[npal]

Yeah, I should probably give him a cookie for the avatar too The best thing in Shuffle after Kaede's arc was this

Oh yeah, and I agree with andiyar's post mostly, although I still believe that as far as the storytelling goes, it is the writer's fault mostly(not the one who wrote ep 19-20 thought ). But the animation... either they changed animators, or the budget was indeed low. Or they just rushed things, but I can't imagine that. And even if it were the producer's fault, one of the writers was particularly talented in storytelling (after all ep 19-20 IS near the end, so the budget had to be pretty low at that time, if at all), so he could have pulled something better IMO (unless they pushed him so far that he did write ep 23-24 like that )

[Crimen Scythe]

the animation was bad i admit...but it was also to relieve the intense drama....going into lighthearted comedy...it was fun...and u got to see Kawaii Primula...more char screentime....probably the animation fit in perfectly for those scenes...besides the writers probably needed some rest from animating well for the important scenes...

[npal]

Eh... Shuffle in the early episodes was fun enough without the crappy animation. Some of them looked like looping gifs in ep 24 !

[Vexx]

One of the best posts of the thread, though, andiyar ... gives me a marker to meet in future posts.

((rats I'm too stingy in my rep point giving apparently....))

[Maids! Maids! Maids!]

Originally Posted by Vegeta666

I think the writers just messed up , pure and simple. My feeling after watching the entire series is that they wrote the series one episode at a time. If they thought about it more and decided to come up with an idea that would work for all 24 episodes, then everything would have been fine. But my feeling is that they didn't think ahead. So when it came time for explanations near the last episodes they just came up with stuff that might have made sense.

No one's disputing that they messed up. I think we've achieved consensus on that. I'm wondering where and how they messed up. Is there a flaw in the logic of Asa's motivation or was there a failure to communicate her motivation. Forgive me. I'm not a writer, but imagine after all that "I don't want to see my mother cry" business, Asa said, "my mother and I suffered so much because of magic. I don't want any part of it."

Something like that might plug the plot hole -- at least for me.

[Vegeta666]

Originally Posted by Maids! Maids! Maids!
No one's disputing that they messed up. I think we've achieved consensus on that. I'm wondering where and how they messed up. Is there a flaw in the logic of Asa's motivation or was there a failure to communicate her motivation. Forgive me. I'm not a writer, but imagine after all that "I don't want to see my mother cry" business, Asa said, "my mother and I suffered so much because of magic. I don't want any part of it."

Something like that might plug the plot hole -- at least for me.

I get what your saying Maids. In my opinion there was both a flaw and failure to communicate Asa's motivation like you said. The first time we actual see Asa and Ama communicate about Asa's condition was back in ep.14 during the flashback. Then we don't find out until ep.23 that Ama is a demon and that she was the first test subject. So they waited another 9 episodes to tell us why Asa is sick. Throw into that all the double talk about how Asa doesn't want to use magic because that would mean in some way that she too is a demon and that's the reason she say's in ep.23 why she won't use magic. Also that because Ama was crying when she revealed she was a demon, Asa believes that by using magic then that means Ama is a demon and since the only time Ama cried was when she revealed she was a demon, Asa doesn't want to use magic. I think I just wrote the samething twice, but by now I confused myself,lol.

What it comes down to is the writers didn't give enough time and a lot of effort in making the reasoning agreeable and understanding. Since Shuffle! had several side stories, the writer's probably forget or didn't bother to think of a way to solve the problem the right way.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by andiyar

I'm guessing, at the start of production, the writing/producing/directing team got together and said, "right, we're doing Shuffle! We'll do half a show of setup, and then we'll do the characters. Who's going to win? Right, Asa. So we'll do them in this order? OK then. Let's go." They would have then made a rough episode-by-episode breakdown (for instance - episode 19, Kaede breakdown). Probably just some short reference points to tell them where they were going.

Incidentally, for what it's worth, the failure you described in your post -- the thing that would have held things together in the situation quoted above -- is a failure in what's usually called "Series Composition" or, in this case, Planning. It's actually a specific job, seperate from writing, directing, and all the rest. In fact, one of the theories/rumours at the time, if I recall correctly, was that the director for episodes 19 & 20 (a different guy) didn't coordinate properly with the planners (perhaps do to time-constraints, as you inferred), which interfered with the pacing of the Kaede/Asa arc. This, to me, would explain what you described (and I also felt) about the way the last episodes played out. It's not that what happened was bad by any means, there was just something botched in the flow/progression that really hurt the flow and continuity. An unfortunate lack of planning.

If I had any criticism for Shuffle's story on the whole, this would essentially be it. I enjoyed all the parts on their own (each episode was good by itself) but the way it all came together as one big cohesive story left a bit to be desired in my mind. So, that doesn't ruin the whole show for me either - I'm buying the DVDs and rewatching them, of course. But it does prevent the show from making the jump from "good" to "great" or "classic" in my mind. A blemish on an otherwise entertaining show. Anyway, all that in my opinion, of course. Good post, andiyar.

[rikku146]

i am not sure if anyone posted it before but i see that rin didn't sia inner twin a name in the last ep.....he kept calling her you are sia's twin..

[Maids! Maids! Maids!]

Originally Posted by Vegeta666

I get what your saying Maids. In my opinion there was both a flaw and failure to communicate Asa's motivation like you said. The first time we actual see Asa and Ama communicate about Asa's condition was back in ep.14 during the flashback. Then we don't find out until ep.23 that Ama is a demon and that she was the first test subject. So they waited another 9 episodes to tell us why Asa is sick. Throw into that all the double talk about how Asa doesn't want to use magic because that would mean in some way that she too is a demon and that's the reason she say's in ep.23 why she won't use magic. Also that because Ama was crying when she revealed she was a demon, Asa believes that by using magic then that means Ama is a demon and since the only time Ama cried was when she revealed she was a demon, Asa doesn't want to use magic. I think I just wrote the samething twice, but by now I confused myself,lol.

What it comes down to is the writers didn't give enough time and a lot of effort in making the reasoning agreeable and understanding. Since Shuffle! had several side stories, the writer's probably forget or didn't bother to think of a way to solve the problem the right way.

It seems to me the writers felt obliged (for reasons cultural? Contractual?) to stick with the game. After Asa's arc, we saw an explosion of creativity. The episode itself couldn't contain it. It just spilled into the closing credits. Asa tweaking Rin's nose. Itsuki hitting on all the girls and getting a licking from Mayumi. Primula drugging and molesting Rin. That strangely beautiful scene with Ama, God-chan, and Forbesii. "The Kiss." And of course Primula reaction to losing in cards.

Animation aside, did anyone else feel we were having great ideas fired at us with a machine gun? That very nice little stories were being told in a matter of seconds? That a particularly complex and troubling story, Ama's, was handled downright poetically? That Primula dosing and snuggling Rin was troubling in so many ways and glorious in so many others? (If you're invested in the characters, it just seemed to take fan service to another level.) That none of us will ever forget that out-of-the-blue, but just so perfect kiss? (Ditto.)

I had problems with the animation. Screw it. Maybe we should be clapping. I doubt we'll ever see fifteen minutes like that again. There was something for everyone and five or six things for those of us who like all the girls.

[Vegeta666]

Originally Posted by Maids! Maids! Maids!
It seems to me the writers felt obliged (for reasons cultural? Contractual?) to stick with the game. After Asa's arc, we saw an explosion of creativity. The episode itself couldn't contain it. It just spilled into the closing credits. Asa tweaking Rin's nose. Itsuki hitting on all the girls and getting a licking from Mayumi. Primula drugging and molesting Rin. That strangely beautiful scene with Ama, God-chan, and Forbesii. "The Kiss." And of course Primula reaction to losing in cards.

Animation aside, did anyone else feel we were having great ideas fired at us with a machine gun? That very nice little stories were being told in a matter of seconds? That a particularly complex and troubling story, Ama's, was handled downright poetically? That Primula dosing and snuggling Rin was troubling in so many ways and glorious in so many others? (If you're invested in the characters, it just seemed to take fan service to another level.) That none of us will ever forget that out-of-the-blue, but just so perfect kiss? (Ditto.)

I had problems with the animation. Screw it. Maybe we should be clapping. I doubt we'll ever see fifteen minutes like that again. There was something for everyone and five or six things for those of us who like all the girls.

Since I never played the game I can only go by what I saw in the anime. But yea the last 15 minutes were strange, weird, wonderful, nice and so many other feelings. It seemed like the writers drank a little too much coffee when making those final 15 minutes.

The animation I think we can all agree wasn't that good. Some parts I had no problem with. But there was one scene where Sia and Nerine were saying goodbye to Primula and when Primula waved goodbye, her hand was seriously deformed.

I'm just happy that the couple I wanted at the start of the series got together in the end. Rin and Asa forever, or until they make season 2 and somehow mess that up,lol.

[Maids! Maids! Maids!]

Originally Posted by Vegeta666

I'm just happy that the couple I wanted at the start of the series got together in the end. Rin and Asa forever, or until they make season 2 and somehow mess that up,lol.

I think he's maintaining a distance (the jerk!). She asks him to call her "Asa". Period. He calls her Asa-san and she seems to settle for it. I could be missing something culturally specific, but I suspect he could drop the "san" at this point.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Rin calls Asa by senpai because that's what he has always called her and as they say old habits die hard.

Now that their a couple, Asa is forcing Rin out of the habit of addressing her by senpai but instead by the standard "san" which is used in Japan I believe.

Of course I do believe that by addressing another person by just their name indicates that the two have an intimate relationship but I could be wrong but at the moment Asa is training Rin to address her by san.

[Maids! Maids! Maids!]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Rin calls Asa by senpai because that's what he has always called her and as they say old habits die hard.

Now that their a couple, Asa is forcing Rin out of the habit of addressing her by senpai but instead by the standard "san" which is used in Japan I believe.

It's an honorific and a sign of formality, which may not be entirely appropriate with the woman you love. He drops it for "family," Kaede and Primula, although neither is related to him. They're the people he loves.

[Vegeta666]

Originally Posted by Maids! Maids! Maids!
I think he's maintaining a distance (the jerk!). She asks him to call her "Asa". Period. He calls her Asa-san and she seems to settle for it. I could be missing something culturally specific, but I suspect he could drop the "san" at this point.

She wanted him to call her Asa-san. She didn't want him to call her Asa-sempai. Those two were the best couple in the series. I couldn't see him getting together with anyone else besides maybe Primula, if she were older only.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

I took another look at 22 and apparently Asa just says "call me by my name" and after Rin goes with Asa-san she says that'll do. Given time she'll probably force him to upgrade.