Fate/Zero - Episode 14 Discussion / Poll

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

On Saber: I don't mind her being a bit "nerfed" for awhile as long as she eventually gets to cut loose at full power and actually look like the main protagonist servant for two or three episodes. If ufotable handles this well, then it'll feel like a great payoff after a long stretch of Saber struggling a bit.

I have faith. The final scene in the first OP sequence gives me it.

On Tokiomi: You know, I do think the guy genuinely loves his two daughters, and that he's made choices that he sincerely believes is in their best interests. It's certainly fair to say he's misguided, but I think the arguments against him are perhaps going a bit too far. I don't think the guy is a heartless bastard (he typically comes across as being on Valium, but that's a separate issue ). He's just working within a clan society and worldview that's very alien to most people, so most people would naturally disagree with him a lot.

It's not that his heart is in the wrong place, it's that he's completely caught up in a corrupt system that's similarly corrupted his thinking.

But.. it's not corrupt. He's a magus. If he had let a nice and supportive magus family adopt Sakura then everything he said would have been a-okay. It's just that he gave his daughter to an evil vampire bastard who needs to die a painful and long death as his insides are slowly crushed into powder while he hangs upside down with his dick nailed to the wall.

[Archer]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

But.. it's not corrupt. He's a magus. If he had let a nice and supportive magus family adopt Sakura then everything he said would have been a-okay. It's just that he gave his daughter to an evil vampire bastard who needs to die a painful and long death as his insides are slowly crushed into powder while he hangs upside down with his dick nailed to the wall.

That's just how it looks to normal people. He's a magus with the value system of one, so he thought it would be the best for Sakura to have one of the Three Families to adopt her, since that would ultimately serve the needs of the Tohsaka family as a whole.

In short, he's not heartless, just horribly crazy and misguided.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

I have faith. The final scene in the first OP sequence gives me it.

That is an encouraging scene, yeah.

But.. it's not corrupt. He's a magus. If he had let a nice and supportive magus family adopt Sakura then everything he said would have been a-okay.

You're right. Crazy might be a better word to use than corrupt.

It's just that when Tokiomi gave his speech to Kariya I didn't get the feeling of "This guy is BSing it. He only cares about himself and his image as a magus, and so he knowingly threw his daughter Sakura to the wolves and made her life a literal hell just for Magus PR reasons. Sick, sick bastard!"

Instead, I get the feeling of "Wow, this guy sincerely believes everything he is saying. He actually thinks he did Sakura a favor here. He really does care about and love his daughters... but the dude is crazy!"

Maybe I'm reading too much into the seiyu performance, but that's the impression I'm getting at least.

[Haak]

Yeah I also got the feeling that Tokiomi sincerly thinks he did what was in Sakura's best interest. It just that what he considers in people's best interest is almost Kyuubey level.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You're right. Crazy might be a better word to use than corrupt.

It's just that when Tokiomi gave his speech to Kariya I didn't get the feeling of "This guy is BSing it. He only cares about himself and his image as a magus, and so he knowingly threw his daughter Sakura to the wolves and made her life a literal hell just for Magus PR reasons. Sick, sick bastard!"

Instead, I get the feeling of "Wow, this guy sincerely believes everything he is saying. He actually thinks he did Sakura a favor here. He really does care about and love his daughters... but the dude is crazy!"

Maybe I'm reading too much into the seiyu performance, but that's the impression I'm getting at least.

The other thing is Tokiomi thinks the Matous are still pursuing the Root meanwhile they are not. Kariya should have told Tokiomi that. I really hate it when the characters don't say something that could change the outcome of what's to follow. You are right though, Tokiomi believes everything he says down to his very core. Magi can be ruthless sometimes. The Mind of Steel Bad End from F/SN is a good example.

Originally Posted by Haak

Yeah I also got the feeling that Tokiomi sincerly thinks he did what was in Sakura's best interest. It just that what he considers in people's best interest is almost Kyuubey level.

You know, that isn't too far off. I think QB is a little more extreme but the same idea holds true. I bet QB was borne of this too.

[willyvereb]

Nah, Tokiomi's reasons are pretty sound even if a bit too sound.
He's like the stereotypical Asian parent who does everything to make their children become an "elite".
Both Rin and Sakura has immense potential as magi so Tokiomi does his best to give them the proper nurtuling. He certainly loves them but he shows his affection in a different way. Since he's a magus. And for a magus there's no greater joy than to surpass their ancestors in power. Tokiomi wishes both Rin and Sakura to grow up as proper magi.

Also I'm quite baffled that people think there's anything Tokiomi can reveal about Zouken via a so-called "background check".
Zouken is basically a ghost, void of any official records. There are no documents that Tokiomi could just conviently read about this guy.
Oh, and before people would come and say "that is sooo suspicious!", no it isn't. Magi in general prefer to be isolated from the modern world. They're shady basement dwellers absorbed in practicing their own occult arts.
In addition there's a no-interference pact between the three founding families. Meaning Tokiomi has no right to enter the Matou residence to check Sakura's well-being.

And of course Tokiomi has no idea about the mechanics behind the Matou family magecraft. Magi are supposed to hide all their secrets from each other. They're selfishly keeping all their attained power, unwilling to share their research. As such Tokiomi has no way to know the torture that Sakura went through.

To conclude: The moment Tokiomi adopted Sakura, he gave up almost any chance to ever meet her again. He did it willingly, believing that even if Sakura would feel lonely she'll eventually get over it and focus on her new life as a Matou mage. He wished the best for Sakura as a mage. That's all.
Tokiomi viewed everything from the PoV of a mage. Everything else came second.

[Klashikari]

I can't call that the "stereotypical Asian parent" style. Being asian, I can testify parents usually get pushy on their offspring for the latter's -own- future, not regarding the bloodline and whatever prestige it may be.
Notice how he put emphasis on the "family name", even a possible confrontation between Rin and Sakura. That's unrelated to their welfare or future, but rather the usual objective of the magi in general, as in reaching the Root.

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I can't call that the "stereotypical Asian parent" style. Being asian, I can testify parents usually get pushy on their offspring for the latter's -own- future, not regarding the bloodline and whatever prestige it may be.
Notice how he put emphasis on the "family name", even a possible confrontation between Rin and Sakura. That's unrelated to their welfare or future, but rather the usual objective of the magi in general, as in reaching the Root.

According to Tokiomi's belief, there's no greater joy for a magi than accomplishing their ultimate goal.

That is:
Reaching the Root, Akasha.
So allowing both sisters to participate in the next Holy Grail War gives both of them a chance for ultimate happiness.

Yeah, that's a screwed up logic.
Except, we're talking about mages.
They're just THAT obsessed.

[Leo_Otaku]

Well that was just super awesome! I did not expect Gil to have a UFO hover craft!!! That was so epic the animation was just breathtaking! Was very impressed with this episode. Thank god Ryunosuke is gone -_-. I can't wait for next week and the hilarious captions for Gil-sama

I wasn't as fond of the OP as the last one had a better song and imagery to me.The ED did not match up in imagery to me since I could care less about Irisviel and Kiritsugu, the song was beautiful though.

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by Leo_Otaku

I wasn't as fond of the OP as the last one had a better song and imagery to me.The ED did not match up in imagery to me since I could care less about Irisviel and Kiritsugu, the song was beautiful though.

Kiritsugu is pretty much the protagonist of Fate/Zero.

It was more apparent in the novels where he had lots of internal monolouges.
Although from the second half onwards I believe he's going to take a more active role and it's represented in the ED.

[Beggar]

I liked this episode. Tokiomi was less boring this episode.

Am I the only one who noticed Kotomine decided no to interfere in Kariya's and Tokiomi's fight?

[dark998]

Fate Zero 2nd is finally back. Ok, first the bad: new OP/ED are a heavy downgrade compared to Oath Sign and Memoria. Downgrade in both visuals ans music.

Now the good and most important: the episode itself was quite enjoyable, much better than the last three of season 1. Berserker possesing the F-15 was great and Gilgamesh has weird taste in ships.

Uryuu died but he was a meh villian so whatever. Caster and his beast still have energy to keep moving.

[LunarMoon]

Originally Posted by dark998

Fate Zero 2nd is finally back. Ok, first the bad: new OP/ED are a heavy downgrade compared to Oath Sign and Memoria. Downgrade in both visuals ans music.

I must be among the few people who vastly preferred the new OP to Oath Sign. As a standalone piece, Oath Sign wasn't necessarily bad, but it would've been horrible at indicating the mood of Fate/Zero, especially throughout the 2nd half. It was a peppy, fairly generic J-Pop piece, while To the Beginning was specifically written for the series, with lyrics that heavily reference its plot.

As for the show, itself, the episode was everything I expected and then some. My body was not ready.

[Haak]

To be honest I don't like the new OP nor the old one. Both are way too upbeat.

I really miss Memoria though...

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

I must be among the few people who vastly preferred the new OP to Oath Sign. As a standalone piece, Oath Sign wasn't necessarily bad, but it would've been horrible at indicating the mood of Fate/Zero, especially throughout the 2nd half. It was a peppy, fairly generic J-Pop piece, while To the Beginning was specifically written for the series, with lyrics that heavily reference its plot.

As for the show, itself, the episode was everything I expected and then some. My body was not ready.

I think the new OP is worst visually, but as far as song goes there's no comparison. Kalafina is way better. So I agree.

[blue_sora]

Well I like To The Beginning in full version more than the tv size, and I was hoping ufotable will spice up the OP as actually that song is not that fast compared to the oath sign, but I'm fine with this. I just wished there more epic ones like where the 5 masters beside Kiritsugu and Kirei walking together (or one sitting in a wheelchair ). I like that one.

I love the ED, but I think it will be weird that every week it still about KiritsuguxIri when the episode doesn't even focuses on them. So now I'm having vain hopes that they will have alternate versions of other teams just to be disappointed again and again. Come on ufotable, make my dream come true

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Nah, Tokiomi's reasons are pretty sound even if a bit too sound.
He's like the stereotypical Asian parent who does everything to make their children become an "elite".
Both Rin and Sakura has immense potential as magi so Tokiomi does his best to give them the proper nurtuling. He certainly loves them but he shows his affection in a different way. Since he's a magus. And for a magus there's no greater joy than to surpass their ancestors in power. Tokiomi wishes both Rin and Sakura to grow up as proper magi.

Also I'm quite baffled that people think there's anything Tokiomi can reveal about Zouken via a so-called "background check".
Zouken is basically a ghost, void of any official records. There are no documents that Tokiomi could just conviently read about this guy.
Oh, and before people would come and say "that is sooo suspicious!", no it isn't. Magi in general prefer to be isolated from the modern world. They're shady basement dwellers absorbed in practicing their own occult arts.
In addition there's a no-interference pact between the three founding families. Meaning Tokiomi has no right to enter the Matou residence to check Sakura's well-being.

And of course Tokiomi has no idea about the mechanics behind the Matou family magecraft. Magi are supposed to hide all their secrets from each other. They're selfishly keeping all their attained power, unwilling to share their research. As such Tokiomi has no way to know the torture that Sakura went through.

To conclude: The moment Tokiomi adopted Sakura, he gave up almost any chance to ever meet her again. He did it willingly, believing that even if Sakura would feel lonely she'll eventually get over it and focus on her new life as a Matou mage. He wished the best for Sakura as a mage. That's all.
Tokiomi viewed everything from the PoV of a mage. Everything else came second.

Which frustrates me all the more since Kariya should have told the Tohsaka's what was happening to Sakura.

And then you throw in how Sakura had to live until F/SN... more rage.

[Kouvley]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I think the new OP is worst visually, but as far as song goes there's no comparison. Kalafina is way better. So I agree.

Agreed.

I thought the ending song was excellent aswell (also composed by Yuki Kajiura). The images used actually matches up with the bonus drama cd that came with the season 1 boxset, recommended listening for those who want a deeper understanding of Kiritsugi and Irisviel's relationship.

As for the episode, "COOOOOOOOOOOOL!!" would be apt to sum it up I think .

[joshuafaramir]

oh damn. Book elitist that I am, I never watched Fate/Zero but you guys make it sound interesting. Maybe I should give it a shot? Finished reading everything though so it's gonna be tough.

[Haak]

I'm pretty sure Tokiomi was able to deduce that Kariya's sorry state was due to the Matou magic, and he didn't seem too surprised by it so I think he knows what Sakura is going to have to go through if he thinks she hasn't already.