Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood - Episode 54 Discussion/Poll

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by xellos2099

Not really related but I just watch the fma ova 3 where Izumi is training on mountain, she really beat a bear on her own.

There's a thread dedicated to the OVAs, you might wanna post that there instead.

[Gooral]

Originally Posted by jimms

(...)
We know that the war would be more accurately characterized as a genocide. None of the soldiers knew that. From their perspective, part of their country was rebelling, and there is no country in the world that would not try to put down a rebellion; but since its the citizens themselves that are the enemy in a rebellion, it gets bloody. We know that the people on top were aiming for a genocide, but I am not sure that it would be apparent that was the goal to a soldier on the front lines. So I think the distinction between the two is, in one case, Mustang was following questionable (from the knowledge he had at the time, as opposed to horrifying as we know) orders, which he believes in hindsight were wrong. His intent there is still good; he has trusted that those above him know what they are doing, and that it is a just goal. The fact that he was wrong does not change the intent; whereas with Envy, he knows his intent is wrong and he tries to force through anyway. When weighing the practical outcomes of the actions, you are right that what he has done in the past is far far worse. But not every moral system focuses on outcomes, and I would say that it is intent that drives how your character changes more than the practical result, justifying the reaction of the other characters.

We know that it was generally known Amestris started the war when a soldier "accidentally" killed an Ishbalan child (although one may wonder how can you accidentally kill a child, especially when you're a trained and experienced soldier that's not in the battle zone). Since Mustang was in the military he should know that it was general who did that, and this general was opposing to invade Ishbal earlier (he wasn't just any soldier but lieutenant at least so he should know about this soldier's rank, maybe not his beliefs and that Amestris army wanted to invade Ishbal anyway). But that didn't change the fact he had to obey orders as a soldier unless he wanted to end his career. So he knew who was the aggressor here. Instead of trying to end this conflict peacefully and for example letting Ishbalans themselves to administer justice they've "protected" this soldier and then executed him themselves. One could wonder why would they do that? It would be very suspicious and it would mean they've considered Ishbalans as trash and wanted to invade them. Mustang was only obeying orders blindly but that doesn't make his crime any lesser.
As for "any country would put out the rebellion". I have three words for this: China and Tibet. On the other hand in Spain they don't wipe out Spanish Basque Country or even Russia doesn't end problems with Chechnya with extreme means. Killing civilians is never a "just goal" if he thought that way then he would have to be a psychopath. I would guess he wasn't thinking about it much, only did his job and suppressed his conscience (but if he could do that then, he could do it after killing Envy even more so). The same goes for not letting them escape but shooting them in the back (we could see that many woman and children wanted to escape but were killed anyway, even Armstrong prevented them from escaping but he had a conscience and regretted it immediately. After seeing with his own eyes that he indirectly killed people he disobeyed orders. Now that's an admirable man).

With Envy he knows he's right (at least he thinks that way) and that he has all rights to kill him. He knows now that killing Ishbalans was wrong but now he has legitimate reason to kill Envy. Mustang is 100% sure that he has a right to kill Envy and that no one should interfere. It's Riza, Ed and Scar that think otherwise.
On the other hand in Ishbal he knew it wasn't right and he didn't see a point of this war. He asked Hughes why are they fighting and Hughes answered him "because we want to live, simple as that". He needed his friend to tell him why he killed all these people.

@Grey
Watch episode 30 again or better yet, read 15th volume of manga. You will see that Mustang killed at point blank range.

[Jeffry2009]

Originally Posted by GaimeGuy

indeed



there, back on track

Burn in hell ENVY!!

BTW Do you know that Envy, compared to the 1st one was actually a failed-resurrected son? Then he transformed into the Giant Dragon in the Shambala Movie which was continue from the series which was completely didn't make sense to me.

Compared to this vid from the 1st:-

[blewin]

It seems we've a new variation of the music here when Armstrong pounded his fists into Sloth. Very appropriate music.

and I never did expect Envy to be envious of humans. Have always wondered what his name means. well, a fitting end for him.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by klare

Roy "the Homunculus buster" Mustang again stole the spotlight, really cant blame him for going for revenge

at the current pace, i am afraid the ending will not be able to be done when the TV series end... a few OVAs or movies perhaps?

Has the end of the manga been announced? Sometimes they'll make an announcement that there are x number of chapters left or something.

Originally Posted by blewin

and I never did expect Envy to be envious of humans. Have always wondered what his name means. well, a fitting end for him.

He was called Envy for a reason. All of the homunculi feel and act out of their name sake emotion more than anything else. It was quite poetic for Envy to be envious of humans.

[Sylphonic]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Envy's death was quite impressive, quite emotive. I was never quite as moved by Hughes' death as many people seemed to be, so it was Envy's confession of his jealousy of humanity that moved me the most about this episode.

As for the animation...to be honest, impressive as it was, somehow, at this point in my appreciation for fantasy action my foremost reaction to Roy's pillars of flame was "is this physically accurate"? My understanding of Roy's alchemy being based on the flow of air had me thinking 'with all these short bursts and powerful explosions, where is he getting the oxygen?' And with regards to Envy's burns, I was wondering if it might not be more effective to set him on fire and let his flesh burn slowly as opposed to repeatedly blasting him with so many individual bursts of flame. I dunno. I liked the rest of the action though.

so, mustang has busted 2 homunculi. he kinda like an orchestra maestro when executing last flame combo. about the oxygen thing, it's pretty much of the same pattern as how they build a wall using alchemy. it controls and gathers some substance(s) into their target point.

the most emotional moment is when envy is nagging about everyone including himself in tears.
the funniest moment is when this piece of subtitle arrives: He fixes my arm!

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Sylphonic

so, mustang has busted 2 homunculi. he kinda like an orchestra maestro when executing last flame combo. about the oxygen thing, it's pretty much of the same pattern as how they build a wall using alchemy. it controls and gathers some substance(s) into their target point.

Flame Alchemy is really, really strong. You wouldn't think so at first, but it is ridiculous. I also had no idea that Riza's back was the secret to it either. I thought it was going to be some human transmutation thing that Father would take advantage of at some point.

the funniest moment is when this piece of subtitle arrives: He fixes my arm!

It's funny because it's a poor subtitle. It was cool, not really funny, since he used the enemies attack to put his arm back in it's socket.

[Reckoner]

Oh boy, I am going to go against the tide here. I really did not enjoy these last two episodes as much as the previous.

The emotion of the scene just did not reach me. I didn't feel touched at all. Perhaps the whole storyline with Mei bringing him back was just so contrived that it ruined it all for me. It would have been better had they just never captured Envy in the first place.

I didn't find the fight that glorious, and the only redeeming thing here was to see Mustang actually make use of his powers properly.

Oh well, at least the animation has been top notch. I am looking forward to these next episodes much more.

[Grey]

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

The way I see it, they were all civilians. They didn't start the war, they didn't have weapons; they didn't even have an army. Ishval wasn't a separate nation, they were a minority group within Amestris, so I don't see how they can be classified as anything other than civilians. Even though there were some amongst them who could fight, I don't even count them as combatants, but as volunteers who were made into a front line.

Actually, they were apparently really good at guerilla warfare, and were getting armaments from the country to the south. That's why riots eventually became a seven-year-long conflict that couldn't be stamped out. Rioting civilians became guerilla fighters. Not to mention those warrior priests who could take out ten regular soldiers (and apparently did so by getting in close and fighting hand-to-hand).

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

If that's the case, why would he feel guilt? He knew what he was doing was wrong.

He still ended up killing civilians. Killing civilians isn't really righteous. But neither is refusing to fight and letting your comrades get shredded by machine gun fire when you could have saved them. The whole situation was morally ugly. Maybe--if his comrades were loyal enough--he could have passed secret orders to ignore escaping citizens. But, well, it's easy to think this up from our position--it would be a lot trickier if we were actually caught up in the fighting. I was just pointing out that it wasn't so simple to say, "Everything was an Amestrian war of aggression and the Ishbalans were all innocent defenders".

EDIT: --oh, wait, yeah I see. The bolded part. Yeah, I recant on the part where we didn't see him killing civilians and that he might not have. He probably did considering his kill count, and that one guy I thought was a warrior priest may not be.

[HayashiTakara]

great episode, my only gripe is the whole "revenge is wrong" deal. Which I partially agree, but there are times where it is right. It's not like Mustang is gonna go on a blood lusting rampage or anything. He's just gonna kill one psychopathic homunculus, If I was Mustang I would've felt cheated.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

It's funny because it's a poor subtitle. It was cool, not really funny, since he used the enemies attack to put his arm back in it's socket.

Are you kidding? It was just as hilarious in the original manga. Yeah, he's cool but he's funny as well because of just how over-the-top he is. He and Olivier as well. The ability to be GAR and funny at the same time is an ability passed down the Armstrong line for generations...

[Shinigami00]

Simply sublime!

[zebra]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

The ability to be GAR and funny at the same time is an ability passed down the Armstrong line for generations...

LOL had to quote it, because it's so true!

[Grey]

Originally Posted by Gooral

We know that it was generally known Amestris started the war when a soldier "accidentally" killed an Ishbalan child (although one may wonder how can you accidentally kill a child, especially when you're a trained and experienced soldier that's not in the battle zone). Since Mustang was in the military he should know that it was general who did that, and this general was opposing to invade Ishbal earlier (he wasn't just any soldier but lieutenant at least so he should know about this soldier's rank, maybe not his beliefs and that Amestris army wanted to invade Ishbal anyway). But that didn't change the fact he had to obey orders as a soldier unless he wanted to end his career. So he knew who was the aggressor here.

Been reading through again, and it looks like the Ishbalan conflict started as riots 13 years ago after the child was killed. But Roy is supposedly 29, so he wouldn't have been an officer yet. Plus, the top brass' true plans are secret and they used Envy's shapeshifting to fuel the conflict. Still haven't found the part where they mention the child getting shot by a general, but I'll probably get there eventually.

And again: Amestris wasn't an obvious aggressor that started the war--that's a simplistic and biased account. One soldier killing a child isn't the same thing as the soldier's country waging a war After the incident, Ishbal blew up into riots. It became a war when Amestris couldn't stop the riots, the riots became larger scale, and Ishbalans took up guerilla warfare (and Aerugo provided them with arms).

Originally Posted by Gooral

Instead of trying to end this conflict peacefully and for example letting Ishbalans themselves to administer justice they've "protected" this soldier and then executed him themselves. One could wonder why would they do that? It would be very suspicious and it would mean they've considered Ishbalans as trash and wanted to invade them. Mustang was only obeying orders blindly but that doesn't make his crime any lesser.

There are almost no countries that would hand over one of the top brass--or any citizen, really--to an extremely religious subsection of the population for punishment, no matter the crime. State and military both handle justice internally--that's normal. The military protecting the soldier (especially if he were high up) doesn't mean "we want to invade Ishbal"--it's the usual favoritism/protection for people in your own organization. Though certainly Ishbalans would see this as unfair and may think it's looking down on Ishbalans--that's probably one of the reasons it produced anger and riots.

Originally Posted by Gooral

Killing civilians is never a "just goal" if he thought that way then he would have to be a psychopath. I would guess he wasn't thinking about it much, only did his job and suppressed his conscience (but if he could do that then, he could do it after killing Envy even more so).

True enough about the just goal bit. But nah about "not thinking"--they had that one scene where he and other soldiers were talking about their crappy situation. In the end, they probably accepted that they were just saddled with BS orders. Yeah, I'd say there was some conscience suppression, and probably some reasoning like "they're already dying from an earlier attack" or "if I don't, I'm just making my comrades/subordinates do the dirty work".

But yeah, I agree I don't think Roy thinks "killing Envy is wrong". I guess Riza (and Ed) stopped him because she thought his revenge binge was making him a bit too warped. I mean, he was so berserk that he threatened to blow off Ed's automail arm and get shot by Riza just so he can deal with finishing blow to Envy. Plus, as others mentioned, there was the torture bit. They probably made him back off because they thought the whole situation was screwing him up.

Originally Posted by Gooral

@Grey
Watch episode 30 again or better yet, read 15th volume of manga. You will see that Mustang killed at point blank range.

Yeah, I know. I just thought it was weird for you to say he wasn't like artillery. He moved in with the rest of the soldiers and finished the wounded off point blank, but his explosions definitely make him artillery role (with other soldiers pulling back so they wouldn't get caught in the blasts).

[Holy Knight]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

great episode, my only gripe is the whole "revenge is wrong" deal. Which I partially agree, but there are times where it is right. It's not like Mustang is gonna go on a blood lusting rampage or anything. He's just gonna kill one psychopathic homunculus, If I was Mustang I would've felt cheated.

I was disappointed by that whole thing. It was kind of weird and out of place really. Considering all that envy has done, I would think this one time it would be acceptable. Sure it does look brutal, but I think eye for an eye felt justifiable here.

Man, and Mustang's face during all that rage.. Shit was priceless.

[HayashiTakara]

Ed needs to learn that being a pacifist when everything is after your life is actually a BAD thing.

Also, How is he going to be a prisoner of hatred and vengence? It's not like Envy has loved ones Mustang can track down and murder, or for them to seek out Mustang causing a vicious cycle of vengence. bleh... I'll just leave it at that.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Are you kidding? It was just as hilarious in the original manga. Yeah, he's cool but he's funny as well because of just how over-the-top he is. He and Olivier as well. The ability to be GAR and funny at the same time is an ability passed down the Armstrong line for generations...

After that, was humorous. However, I was really pointing fingers at the subtitle.

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Ed needs to learn that being a pacifist when everything is after your life is actually a BAD thing.

As do so many other shonen heroes.

Also, How is he going to be a prisoner of hatred and vengence? It's not like Envy has loved ones Mustang can track down and murder, or for them to seek out Mustang causing a vicious cycle of vengence. bleh... I'll just leave it at that.

I think it's more like a barrier. Once he crosses, he'll have no problem doing it again in the future, and for something less important. It's like how some people simply cannot have only one chip or one cookie.

[zebra]

Well, you don't have to like the message, but Arakawa delivered it clearly.

It was pretty much the whole point of the scene that executing his revenge would have corrupted Roy. I mean as entertainíng angry Roy was - he was just as scary. If it had been about doing the right thing it wouldn't have mattered to him if he killed Envy or if Riza killed him in his place. But it did, and that's the point.

Roy's thirst for revenge has been played very subtil until he met Envy. Remember that he asked every Homunculus who killed Hughes, no matter the circumstances and with a dark look to top it off.

The speech the others give him give the reasons why he shouldn't do it:
"It's not to help the country or to protect a comrade."
It's just his wrath.

Hawkeye is supposed to watch his back and make sure he doesn't stray off his path and that's exactly what she does. Bones underlined that nicely with inserting her hurt expression watching Roy fireworking Envy. That Roy turned his back on the revenge shows balls and that he is truly a good guy. Someone you would want to be your leader. The leader of a country can't let his emotions drive his actions.

It's one of my favorite scenes and imo the best executed revenge plot in an anime I have seen. Because it's built up subtly, explodes violently and then gets a conclusion that satisfies.
And it's been shown that unlike Ed he kills when he has to (like the Zombie things the episode before), but this was about him only and not about if it's right to let Envy stay alive.
That Envy kills himself in the end brings the irony to his death others have pointed out so nicely.


Ed's pacifism is flawed, but it's part of his personality and the result of his backstory. Going for a kill is totally out of character; his pro life attitude is one of his character traits.

[Guardian Enzo]

I'm not so sure I'm comfortable putting Mustang into the "Good Guy" category based on this episode. I think his hand was stayed in the end more by concern over what his finishing what he started would have done to hurt his allies - especially Hawkeye - than any hesitation over the merits of the deed itself. As I said, he's absolutely an "end justifies the means" guy and nothing that happened here changes that, for me.

There's no question that Roy has done indefensible things. There's also no doubt that he's felt remorse for them, but does remorse after an act of evil exonerate the perpetrator of moral responsibility? It seems to me that Mustang's primary drivers over the course of the series have been two - revenge and ambition. Neither of those are what I would call noble, though in his own mind he pursues them towards a noble end (avenging his friend, unifying the country and bringing peace).

[lonewolf777]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I'm not so sure I'm comfortable putting Mustang into the "Good Guy" category based on this episode. I think his hand was stayed in the end more by concern over what his finishing what he started would have done to hurt his allies - especially Hawkeye - than any hesitation over the merits of the deed itself. As I said, he's absolutely an "end justifies the means" guy and nothing that happened here changes that, for me.

There's no question that Roy has done indefensible things. There's also no doubt that he's felt remorse for them, but does remorse after an act of evil exonerate the perpetrator of moral responsibility? It seems to me that Mustang's primary drivers over the course of the series have been two - revenge and ambition. Neither of those are what I would call noble, though in his own mind he pursues them towards a noble end (avenging his friend, unifying the country and bringing peace).

I agree. I never really considered Roy a good guy, even though he does the right thing more often than not. I personally never let him off the hook for Ishval, and I don't think that time causes sins to be erased. It seems that a common sentiment is that if something happened a long time ago, it's easier to brush under the rug, whereas something that is happening now makes the perpetrator of those currently occurring actions more criminal. But at the end of the day, Roy Mustang is still a murderer who took massive part in genocide, regardless of his afterthoughts. The fact is, he never did anything during the genocide campaign to show his remorse or disapproval, nor did he do anything afterward to help the Ishvalans in any capacity.