2013-03-14, 21:20 | Link #4683 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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I'll give you a third big edge. They were in DD tanks with enhanced freeboard. Even when circumstances make them sink, they still retain some of that freeboard, so they probably sank at a slower pace and presumably weren't moving to the vertical. That gives the crew enormously more favorable opportunities to simply get out before the hatches are all blocked by water. And a 4th big edge over only Nishizumi tanks. They can try to use any hatch that isn't blocked by water (they can also use them after the pressure equalizes). Nishizumi tanks apparently had them welded shut. Do you really think a side-hatch compensates for these 4 rather big differences? You say that the DD crews that drowned did because they decided to hang on too long. We will never know for sure since they drowned, but the way Ep7 played out, there wasn't time to consciously decide much of anything. |
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2013-03-14, 21:22 | Link #4684 | ||||||
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Right, had some sleep, woke up early, had breakfast. I think I can come back to this now.
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Also, as I recall, Miho is not swimming against the current, but with it. I believe those of us who swim all agree that it's easier to swim with the current rather than against it. I'd also like to share the thoughts of another soldier I'm acquainted with: Quote:
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So I would respectfully submit that the possibility exists that the crew is incompetent (by your standards), and thus the rescue is required. Also, if we compare them to the DD Sherman crews, there is a vast level of difference in the preparedness and equipment: these girls are wearing school uniforms, throat mikes and headsets only, versus the DD Sherman crews who had life jackets and breathers, and fully expected that they might have to bail from sinking tanks in rough seas, as opposed to schoolgirls whose tank suddenly slid off a short cliff. Why would you expect a crew of schoolgirls in school uniforms, without even helmets or seatbelts, to fare equally well compared to a tank crew trained and prepared for amphibious operations, equipped with life jackets and rebreathers, and on tanks that were made to be as watertight as possible? Quote:
Now, by all means, you may feel free to dismiss his opinion on this, but I will again reiterate that ignoring the opinions of American and Canadian soldiers, who have actually participated in fighting, is a tad... short sighted, perhaps? With all due respect, when have the JGSDF and ROKA actually gone out and engaged in combat for real? As opposed to the American, Canadian and British forces, which have been on active duty for the last decade? Again, you are free to hold your own opinions, but I will give greater weight to the men who have seen the elephant. Also, can we please give the whole sociopath argument a good decent burial? It was Random Wanderer who brought that up, and I am rather tired of seeing how you appear to be tarring everyone with the same brush as her. Do note that for the most part we have all been arguing points, paradigms, and with reasoned words, instead of insults (and in my case, experiences of men who have done this shit for real). Quote:
I will add one thing, however. Senshado is practiced as a sport, at the Inter-high. In every sport that I know of, as soon as the refs realise there is an accident, a time out is called. Even Formula One calls a halt to the racing and everyone goes into the safety lap. Name one, one sport, where continuing to play in pursuit of victory, endangering the lives of your team members and opponents, is acceptable. Do you sincerely believe risking the lives of your teammates to secure a victory trophy is justified? Quote:
Something that's also ignored is that the crew were most likely injured in the fall, and depending on how they landed, may not have been in any shape to immediately save themselves. I mean, I fell in a drain over the weekend, scraped my forearm and hit my back and my knee, and it took me a minute or so before my muscles stopped quivering and I managed to painfully haul myself out. And that was a 4-foot drop. If I'd landed on my ankle and sprained it, I probably wasn't getting out without assistance.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2013-03-14 at 21:46. |
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2013-03-14, 21:53 | Link #4685 |
Operation sneaky sneaks
IT Support
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Hic et ubique
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You've summarised all of the points nicely if I may add my $0.02, all we've seen is a flashback. Said flashback is deliberately grainy, perhaps suggesting that it was to the best of Miho's recollection. Because it's told from Miho's perspective, we cannot ascertain the actual situation inside the tank, leaving discussion restricted to (primarily) reasoned speculation at best.
It's not worth losing sleep over, mate Better to get more sleep and get more psyched for episodes 11 and 12
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2013-03-14, 22:06 | Link #4686 | |
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Sides it's 11 am here.
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2013-03-14, 22:13 | Link #4687 |
Operation sneaky sneaks
IT Support
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Hic et ubique
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Whereas I desire sleep, I'm not allowed it. The sun sets on this side of the world, and it's going to be a long night: there are too many real world obligations right now I suddenly realise that I might be forced to put off watching those final episodes until the dust settles
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2013-03-14, 22:58 | Link #4688 | |
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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As for me, I think things have finally died down, so long as nobody decides to toss in a Molotv to liven things up. Fascinating discussion, in quite many ways, even if some heads were getting quite heated up towards the end. Though some unanswered points are, I suppose, the price of peace.
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2013-03-14, 23:12 | Link #4689 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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That reminds me. Someone mentioned Ooari winnng via asymmetric warefare. But typical anti-tank warfare in such situations would require infantry forces or artillery. The mention of Molotv for example, along with magnetic mines and anti-tank rifles would be a way to defeat Black Forest Peak. But I'm fairly certain such things are against the rules.
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2013-03-14, 23:28 | Link #4690 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
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...No, really, I'd like to stop arguing too. It seems I have a tendency to start these things (or at least, ignite them) by saying things without really thinking of the consequences, and stuff spirals out from there.
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2013-03-14, 23:28 | Link #4691 | |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
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The actual post was this:
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2013-03-14, 23:38 | Link #4692 | |||
Operation sneaky sneaks
IT Support
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Hic et ubique
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2013-03-15, 00:43 | Link #4697 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
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In any case, I registered on this forum to express my displeasure at the implications being raised about a number of groups that I am associated with. In an effort to avoid bringing the discussion back to this, this will be my only post on the topic of the incident. 1. I am unhappy that Asian militaries are being considered less safety-conscious than Western militaries. As a conscript in the Singapore Armed Forces who has trained with the Republic of China (Taiwan) Army, we definitely make safety a serious consideration on par or close to that of our friends and allies in the United States armed forces who we regularly train with. I have heard no indication from my friends in that service that there is a serious divergence in the training safety regulations when they train with the JGSDF or the ROKA either. This is not surprising for several reasons. a) First and foremost, an exercise is not more important than saving lives. An exercise is something that you can halt and carry on with, or even repeat next week or next month if need be. Human lives, once lost, are irreplaceable. b) In a conscript force such as the ROKA, ROCA or the SAF, especially in our Confucian oriented societies, explaining to a mother why her son who was forced to serve was left to die in the pursuit of a trivial goal, in this case a repeatable exercise, is lunacy. c) Even ignoring the human factor, there is a great deal of monetary cost involved. All three conscript militaries pay out significant death benefits in order to avoid strong political dissent against conscription. Furthermore, a tank crew is an asset. An investment in time, money, training and experience. Once again, to squander this resource over something as minor as an exercise just does not add up. d) These are not applicable in wartime of course, but only due to the simple fact that Miho's actions might have led to additional lives being lost, and if the security of the sector under her watch fell then the Panzer III crew would be dead anyway even if they were rescued. But this is not applicable in a Senshadou match. Outside of war militaries, be they Western or Eastern, take safety seriously. Both out of concern for human life and also in cost/benefit terms. Even in war, concern for safety is reduced, only because playing it too safe will cost even more lives. 2. As a member of the Armour community and who has served on armoured vehicles (the M113-Ultra 40/50 and the BV206), I am unhappy with the crass treatment being given to "A" vehicle accidents. Armoured vehicles are cramped and lack the safety features found on civilian vehicles. There's a lot of bouncing around even during normal off road driving, necessitating the wearing of helmets at all times while inside, and frequent vehicle overturning and evacuation drills. Despite all this training, fatal accidents still happen due to the nature of the vehicles. In addition, water bodies always present a danger in armoured vehicle operations. Frequent water-tightness dip tests are required to ensure that the vehicle is ready for fording or amphibious operations, as is training for evacuation while on water bodies. We also wear inflatable life jackets whenever we conduct amphibious operations. Combined with the inherent dangers of armoured vehicle operations, water body accidents pose an additional hazard and many have drowned due to this. In Senshadou, these safety precautions are largely absent. Given the dangers and difficulties of armoured vehicle accidents, immediate external assistance of any kind would have been prescribed for the Panzer III crew. 3. As a fencer and a rugby player, I am unhappy with how victory in sport is being implied to be more important than human life. Contact sports and martial arts take safety seriously. Where there are lapses in safety they are addressed and fixed. Lapses do occur due to unforeseen circumstances or negligence, but when they do occur the consequences should be immediately attended to. There were evidently no means in place to aid the Panzer III crew in distress. In light of the dangers of armoured vehicle accidents, Miho's response was warranted. 4. As a first responder (I'm a medic), I know all too well about the Bystander effect. You cannot rely on anyone but yourself to respond in an emergency situation. The failure of anyone else in the area to respond is not an indictment against Miho's response. 5. As a consumer of fiction, I am aghast at the inability to recognize that the writers themselves make it very clear that the philosophy of the Black Forest is reprehensible. None of the other schools agree with them, and the actions of Miho's parents are a clear example of terrible parenting. In fact, I would consider them to be an allegory for the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy during World War 2, which did pursue a "victory at any cost" philosophy which involved them squandering troops and materiel in hopeless situations rather than pulling back, reassessing the situation and coming up with a new plan. 6. As a human being, I am deeply disappointed. To hear talk of how people only die in accidents due to incompetence shows a clear disconnect with reality. And even taking a utilitarian viewpoint that does not value human life inherently, the cost/benefit analysis doesn't add up when the "benefit" is a trophy that can simply be won again the next time around, and which any reasonable person will admit was lost due to extenuating circumstances. Last edited by dacis2; 2013-03-15 at 00:59. |
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2013-03-15, 01:35 | Link #4698 |
Senior and Demented
Join Date: May 2006
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Wow, I was going to vehemently agree with Random Wanderer's textual analysis but I think dacis2 just won this thread.
I *was* also going to add this link to a first hand account of how dangerous WWII tanks were when in sinking *for operators who were trained in amphibious tanks*, but again it seems kind of moot. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peop...a1311652.shtml I would submit that our best course of action is to agree wholeheartedly with dacis2 and move on. It's clear that Sumeragi will not change his opinion and that everyone else is horrified by it and that's that. I'd like to go back to arguing pointlessly about wether Katyusha is overrated or not please (because I find tsun-loli tankers to be adorable and any excuse to chatter on about her seems like a good excuse).
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2013-03-15, 01:51 | Link #4699 | |
Whoosh!
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2013-03-15, 02:01 | Link #4700 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Things we know:
(Relative to the present in Girls und Panzers) Last year, in the finals, Miho was the freshmen, Vice Commander of Black Forest Peak, in command of the flag tank which was a Tiger I. We can assume she was Vice Commander the entire year and worked with Maho and Erika as they defeated everyone else to get to the finals with their mid-late war German tanks. From Miho's introduction and Little Army manga, Miho didn't particularly have friends at Black Forest Peak. Or at least since her time in elementary school 5-6 years ago, she's not had fun with tanks until she gets onto Ooari. One wonders how close she was to her own tank crew. It is clear she cared about her team mates as she went after the fallen Panzer III crew. But it is unclear if she had friends like she has at Ooari or those she had in elementary school. Miho was likely in Black Forest junior high school's tank program for three years and senior high school for a year before she ran off to Ooari this year. Do we know how much older Maho is than Miho? The assumption is one year older so that Maho is also in high school, but it is also possible that Maho is in college at Black Forest Peak, which bring up interesting questions about who is elegible to participate in this specific tournament. Maho was MVP in middle school when Miho was 10 years old. This could make Maho anywhere between 1 and 4 years older than Miho. (Was Miho in fifth or sixth year at age 10?) Erika comes off as something of a bitch whenever she's around Miho. A smug bitch at that. It is not exactly clear if they were friendly prior to last years finals, or if Erika always was like this to Miho. She's clearly surprised and maybe upset that Ooari is winning at all. Her declaration to destroying Miho's "herasy" seems a bit over the top, but then Erika might be too into Black Forest's style. She's too passionate and not cold and serious like Maho or Shiho. Maho is sort of the mystery woman. She says so little that she's almost impossible to gauge. However her time at Black Forest Peak means that Miho has a lot of experiance, but even in elementary school she was put as the tank commander. It is unknown if she kept this position the next several years in high school until given the position of Vice Commander and command of the Tiger in the finals last year. She showed reluctance to be commander of the Panzer IV at Ooari and more reluctance to be Commander of the team over Momo. Aside from a few individuals, Miho was not so well known before her run at Ooari. Yukari knew her for what she did, and a few others for her family name, but it would seem she did not make a name for herself at Black Forest Peak in the four years she was there. Miho at Ooari has developed an odd fan following with those she's fought (she did not defeat Darjeeling). It is unknown what the media is doing as aside from the huge screens during the games and the interview with Maho early on, we've not seen much in terms of media on this sport, and certainly no one running to interview the girls after a match. Little Army does have a potental setup for a sequel series with her friend from Germany being serious about tanks and wanting to defeat Maho. Though defeating Miho once she has her own style would do for her, (tsundere-like that she is). Though bringing that up in the anime might require make in show backstory that one would expect. It is still possible to lose in Episode 12. But it is likely Ooari will win, but with a photo finish last shot like all the rest of their victories. It is also possible the game will be called for some reason without a victor. Or that Black Forest Peak wins but is disqualifed for some reason. There are many possibilites that will be answered in the next ten or so days.
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2013-03-15 at 02:11. |
Tags |
comedy, gup, original anime, slice of life, sports, tanks |
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