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Old 2010-12-21, 21:17   Link #2161
Moogleking
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Originally Posted by loctar87 View Post
There's nothing to indicate that any of Beato's stories follow Dine. The one time Will tried it against Bern, it did absolutely nothing. Even then, it was "the truth" he was fighting against, not Beato's game-board.
The reason Van Dine's rules did nothing against Bern is because that tea party wasn't a mystery.

I mean, is there a single mystery element in what we're shown in the tea party? It's really just a story.
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Old 2010-12-21, 21:32   Link #2162
loctar87
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Originally Posted by Moogleking View Post
The reason Van Dine's rules did nothing against Bern is because that tea party wasn't a mystery.

I mean, is there a single mystery element in what we're shown in the tea party? It's really just a story.
That's true, but they've never been used in beato's stories, so we don't know they apply. Beato's stories seem to violate rules 16 and 20.

16. A detective novel should contain no long descriptive passages, no literary dallying with side-issues, no subtly worked-out character analyses, no "atmospheric" preoccupations. such matters have no vital place in a record of crime and deduction. They hold up the action and introduce issues irrelevant to the main purpose, which is to state a problem, analyze it, and bring it to a successful conclusion. To be sure, there must be a sufficient descriptiveness and character delineation to give the novel verisimilitude.

20. And (to give my Credo an even score of items) I herewith list a few of the devices which no self-respecting detective story writer will now avail himself of. They have been employed too often, and are familiar to all true lovers of literary crime. To use them is a confession of the author's ineptitude and lack of originality. (a) Determining the identity of the culprit by comparing the butt of a cigarette left at the scene of the crime with the brand smoked by a suspect. ...(the rest omitted)
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Old 2010-12-21, 21:38   Link #2163
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And Knox has a rule about no Chinese people. Obviously he doesn't use all of the rules. The rules said in red are definitely used, though.
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Old 2010-12-21, 21:44   Link #2164
Kirroha
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It never said no Chinese people. Just no "Chinamen", which are defined as random people who just pop in like the mafia or something. And anyway, that rule was excluded in the TIPs.
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Old 2010-12-21, 21:44   Link #2165
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by loctar87 View Post
That's true, but they've never been used in beato's stories, so we don't know they apply. Beato's stories seem to violate rules 16 and 20.

16. A detective novel should contain no long descriptive passages, no literary dallying with side-issues, no subtly worked-out character analyses, no "atmospheric" preoccupations. such matters have no vital place in a record of crime and deduction. They hold up the action and introduce issues irrelevant to the main purpose, which is to state a problem, analyze it, and bring it to a successful conclusion. To be sure, there must be a sufficient descriptiveness and character delineation to give the novel verisimilitude.

20. And (to give my Credo an even score of items) I herewith list a few of the devices which no self-respecting detective story writer will now avail himself of. They have been employed too often, and are familiar to all true lovers of literary crime. To use them is a confession of the author's ineptitude and lack of originality. (a) Determining the identity of the culprit by comparing the butt of a cigarette left at the scene of the crime with the brand smoked by a suspect. ...(the rest omitted)
Regarding the 20th, if you knew about the rules when you saw that scene you would chuckle. You would tell yourself that there is no way Hideyoshi would be the culprit just because of that. In fact, I think that was RK07s intention when he used it.

Regarding the 16th, discard everything you've seen in fantasy scenes and attack the problem without any preconceive notions that the fantasy scenes gave you. Thats the actual mystery element in the story.
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Old 2010-12-21, 21:46   Link #2166
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Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
It never said no Chinese people. Just no "Chinamen", which are defined as random people who just pop in like the mafia or something. And anyway, that rule was excluded in the TIPs.
Actually, apparently its because back during Knox's time, "mystery" novel writers were having a blast with using an evil mastermind "Chinaman" as the culprit. Knox's 5th rule was essentially saying that if you want to make a serious mystery novel, don't fall onto such cliche methods.
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Old 2010-12-21, 21:48   Link #2167
Kirroha
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Well, back in those times, a lot of people like to make use of "The Butler did it". Nowadays though, it's more of reversed -- the butler/maid is the one who's accused, but the real culprit is someone else. The EP7 introduction sort of plays on that.
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Old 2010-12-21, 22:36   Link #2168
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Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
Well, back in those times, a lot of people like to make use of "The Butler did it". Nowadays though, it's more of reversed -- the butler/maid is the one who's accused, but the real culprit is someone else. The EP7 introduction sort of plays on that.
This is particularly interesting because, and excuse me, because I'm not terribly well read in any genre, let alone mysteries, but I've seen the argument (even before encountering Umineko), that this is one of those cliche's whose origin can't really be found, because it was never all that prevalent as we seem to think. Even back in the Golden Age, I believe there are rather few cases of a servant/butler actually being the culprit.
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Old 2010-12-21, 22:38   Link #2169
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Just finished Ep7 - Thank you Witch Hunt for the Christmas present.

I must apologize beforehand - instead of answering some of your comments/theories I would like to talk about the person "x" we got to know.

So let they stop crying now.

- We have a person "x", who is called Yasu/Lion.
In this episode "the heart" of this child is opened for us. In the meta-world where Beatrice "revives" and the murders occur the profile I get from Yasu is the following:
(I will use the term "it" instead of she or he because of the ambiguity of the question)

A child that has some kind of handicap/fragility , because of the "accident" that it suffered when it was thrown from the cliff.
While growing, at a young age, it had the opportunity to live/work at the Ushiromiya Mansion, which was something that everyone at the Fukuin House dreamed of.

It feeling the strain of the responsibility and aware of the lack of experience, had the "necessity" to create a personality that would serve has a guide/a goal/ an older sister that never existed. Its mind created this figure to offer the shelter and a friend that it needed - Shanon was born. (I could even theorize that Shannon was born before the child being admitted at the Ushiromiya Mansion)

Shanon was not enough. This child had a flexible mind - a dreamer we can say.
Forgetting keys, losing things without noticing until they are gone was something regular. That is something normal in a child, however being a servant in the Ushiromiya Mansion that was something intolerable.
"It must be the witch that everyone talks about" - An easy answer for a problem.
Then we all know the story about Gaap - 1st Beato - and how that evolved.

Has time passed, it became more cautious, with the help of Kuwasawa and some inspiration, she became, in maturity, what it goal was - Shanon. However the power that it gained, with the knowledge passed trough a large number of mystery tales and "creative thinking" (witch gained the title of "Magic" - Beatrice was playing tricks using her body), couldn't co-live with the personality of a "simple servant that carried his job perfectly) - So Incomplete Beatrice was born.

After that, I can pass up the story about Battler and jump to the part where it broken heart needed a replacement for the gap that Battler left. Kanon was born (Kanon who was the same age it was supposed to "falsely" have in order to fool Natsuhi).

Now we have a soul, divided in 3 fragments. Beatrice - Who still loves Battler
Shanon - Who developed feelings for George and Kanon - Who fills the desire of Jessica to have "love"

On top of all of this, we still have the truth. Yasu became the heir that Kinzo desired so profoundly - solving the epitaph.

Even having it all, this person couldn't gain what it wanted. A heart divided in three, couldn't possibly have a complete happy ending.

This game is not only mystery or fantasy, because a true Human lives between the border of the two.

Now, with that said, I don't believe that Yasu is the true culprit of the murders.
It can be view has the culprit, only because it was the "plan" that it decided to carry, that was used has the "Motto" to carry out a real murder.
And I believe that, if it was still alive after some of the "real murders" happend, it would blow the whole place up.

Right now I just wanted to talk about this person "x", because my heart aches with such a sad tale.

(Who feels that Will, with that red piece of hair of his, is the "Battler" we all waited for?)

PS: I just read people talking about the "Virgilia" episode, where Beatrice had a flashback and all that. It could be interpreted has - Kuwasawa was the one who taught Yasu about "magic" and the rest was it vivid mind going wild. (The "old Beatrice" could be because Kuwasawa was the one who knew magic before the final Beato learned how to control it)
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Old 2010-12-21, 23:02   Link #2170
Kirroha
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(Who feels that Will, with that red piece of hair of his, is the "Battler" we all waited for?)
*raises hand* Me. But I can't find much concrete evidence for that and most others don't believe in it. ^^;
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Old 2010-12-21, 23:05   Link #2171
Jan-Poo
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@KazePT You basically made a summary of what is commonly accepted about Yasu's story, more or less.

There are still some unanswered question. Mainly: why Kanon was necessary? Did Yasu actually start to dress like a boy after that or did Kanon simply remained in her own mind? In the former case, how did she manage that? In the latter case how Jessica fell in love with him, and why everyone remember Kanon in 1986?

There is no general consensus about this issue.

Quote:
PS: I just read people talking about the "Virgilia" episode, where Beatrice had a flashback and all that. It could be interpreted has - Kuwasawa was the one who taught Yasu about "magic" and the rest was it vivid mind going wild. (The "old Beatrice" could be because Kuwasawa was the one who knew magic before the final Beato learned how to control it)
Well that's really the only thing that you can save from there, all the rest is false. How one was supposed to discern that very single truth among all the other lies, at the time?
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Old 2010-12-21, 23:10   Link #2172
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Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
*raises hand* Me. But I can't find much concrete evidence for that and most others don't believe in it. ^^;
Well he was the kind of like "Battler" in that he did what Battler would have done. It works as metaphor. But Claire also comments that she wishes Battler would have done it.

I'm not going to hurt you for thinking that. We still don't have an answer for other Battler either. /jp/ also claims that Ryukishi introduced Will because the fanbase didn't trust Battler to explain things.

Seriously though Battler needs to step things up. He gets all these badass powers and knowledge in episode 5 and he hasn't used them since. And sadly he might never use them.


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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
How one was supposed to discern that very single truth among all the other lies, at the time?
Well a lot of the episode was focused on understanding "fantasy" and "magic".
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Old 2010-12-21, 23:18   Link #2173
TehChron
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
@KazePT You basically made a summary of what is commonly accepted about Yasu's story, more or less.

There are still some unanswered question. Mainly: why Kanon was necessary? Did Yasu actually start to dress like a boy after that or did Kanon simply remained in her own mind? In the former case, how did she manage that? In the latter case how Jessica fell in love with him, and why everyone remember Kanon in 1986?
Yeah, the problem with Kanon is that he feels unnecessary. So why is he even there? Filling a void doesnt...make sense. At all. I can understand if Kanon was supposed to act as a surrogate Lion (a potential male heir), for Yasu to act as, but that still begs the question of why would she go that far to begin with?

The simplest solution is that Kanon is an entirely fictional creation exclusive to the episodes, but Episode 4 rules that out as a possibility, supposedly. It's annoying.
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Old 2010-12-21, 23:58   Link #2174
loctar87
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Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
Yeah, the problem with Kanon is that he feels unnecessary. So why is he even there? Filling a void doesnt...make sense. At all. I can understand if Kanon was supposed to act as a surrogate Lion (a potential male heir), for Yasu to act as, but that still begs the question of why would she go that far to begin with?

The simplest solution is that Kanon is an entirely fictional creation exclusive to the episodes, but Episode 4 rules that out as a possibility, supposedly. It's annoying.
Shannon needed someone to keep from being lonely. That's why he was created. As for why Kanon was brought into the real world, it's not like Shannon is any different from Kanon. One isn't more real than the other. If circumstances allow you to play multiple roles, why not?
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Old 2010-12-22, 00:11   Link #2175
TehChron
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Originally Posted by loctar87 View Post
Shannon needed someone to keep from being lonely. That's why he was created. As for why Kanon was brought into the real world, it's not like Shannon is any different from Kanon. One isn't more real than the other. If circumstances allow you to play multiple roles, why not?
That's absurd, Shannon wasn't lonely at all. She had her fellow servants, and Jessica, not to mention Claire and Gaap, and by that point Im pretty sure she had Maria as well.

Shannon wasn't lonely, she just missed Battler. That problem was solved with putting the love into Beatrice, Kanon doesnt serve a purpose, given Shannons circumstances.
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Old 2010-12-22, 00:18   Link #2176
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That's absurd, Shannon wasn't lonely at all. She had he fellow servants, and Jessica, not to mention Claire and Gaap, and by that point Im pretty sure she had Maria as well.

Shannon wasn't lonely, she just missed Battler. That problem was solved with putting the love into Beatrice, Kanon doesnt serve a purpose, given Shannons circumstances.
People can be quite lonely even when they are around other people. Kanon was someone who could truly be close to her. Yasu needed Shannon, even if she had Gapp. It's the same from Shannon needing Kanon.
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Old 2010-12-22, 00:21   Link #2177
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Originally Posted by loctar87 View Post
People can be quite lonely even when they are around other people. Kanon was someone who could truly be close to her. Yasu needed Shannon, even if she had Gapp. It's the same from Shannon needing Kanon.
Yasu wasnt even aware of her status as head of the mansion at that point, however, so the logistics of the act make it absurd that Yasu would be able to carry on that farce only to alleviate Shannon's loneliness. Even if we allow that as an explanation (and it...is really stretching the believability factor there, if that were the case)
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Old 2010-12-22, 00:34   Link #2178
loctar87
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Yasu wasnt even aware of her status as head of the mansion at that point, however, so the logistics of the act make it absurd that Yasu would be able to carry on that farce only to alleviate Shannon's loneliness. Even if we allow that as an explanation (and it...is really stretching the believability factor there, if that were the case)
Most days they probably wouldn't both be on the island. As long as Genji played along, it probably wouldn't be impossible. And aside from Shannon's loneliness, this is someone who gets a great deal of joy from tricking others with "magic".
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Old 2010-12-22, 00:43   Link #2179
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Quote:
That's absurd, Shannon wasn't lonely at all. She had her fellow servants, and Jessica, not to mention Claire and Gaap, and by that point Im pretty sure she had Maria as well.
The servants are assholes, she's supposed to keep an air of professionalism around Jessica, who can't truly understand her anyway, Claire and Gaap are witches, and Maria is Beatrice's friend.

Kanon is someone who can understand Shannon and, until she finds new love, be someone she can "create a universe" with. He's a placeholder in a role that no one else but Battler at the time could fill.
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Old 2010-12-22, 00:49   Link #2180
Raiza Sunozaki
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Kanon is someone who can understand Shannon and, until she finds new love, be someone she can "create a universe" with. He's a placeholder in a role that no one else but Battler at the time could fill.
But she can't create a universe with Kanon. All universe creations we've seen have been between people who have in some two separate physical entities. Creating a universe with Kanon would be like creating a universe with herself, one that would crumble apart quickly.
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