Are "theater ripped" fansubs crossing the line?

[jennwenn]

Originally Posted by Radd

This whole 'theatre rip' debate seems to be based around drawing a line, for the sake of drawing a line and no other reason. No logic behind it. No consequence is trying to be avoided. It has every bit a grounding in reality as the idea that wearing a hat on a Tuesday should be illegal. To my eye no one has brought up a strong reasoning, merely some vague, intangible belief that it is somehow 'more wrong' simply because it is, mmkay?

My view is that online anime rips and (therefore fansubs) hurt Japanese sales or sales in other areas where an anime is already licensed, like the rest of Asia. This can be directly because viewers download rips/fansubs in the area they weren't intended to be viewed or indirectly through bootleggers stealing fansubs. Both aren't fansubbers' intentions, but it happens and we should consider that.

Whether fansubs "encourage" foreign, English-language sales is debatable. Most people thnk they do, but I think it makes no difference. I'll just assume they do for debate. There is no way I can change people's opinions about DVD rips or TV rips, where this is also a problem, but I'm hoping that people care enough to stop at theater rips. Theaters get a commission from ticket sales and profit from concession stands. It would be nice to let them keep that. At least we won't be stealing the same file twice, as all movies that are fancam subbed will inevitably be resubbed from DVD as well.

This whole question will only apply to possibly 2 movies a year, as movies are rarely made, quickly announced for license, or fansubbers don't care about the movie. (Like the annual Doraemon, Kochi-kame, Crayon Shin-chan etc.) The only anime films coming out where people might care enough to get fancam subs are Naruto and possibly Air. Konjiki no Gash Bell the Movie appears safe so far...

IF Animesuki does decide to list fancams, I hope they put a little "fancam" label or something like that next to the file. (Like the "speedsubbers" warning.)

[NoSanninWa]

This thread does not exist to discuss the legality of fansubs. That topic has had its share of threads so find one of them to discuss it in. (Never mind, you've alrady had your say there. God this gets done to death.) Short answer: They are illegal and we at AnimeSuki know that.

This thread does not exist to discuss the ethicallity of subbing licensed vs unlicensed anime either. That topic is also done to death.

This topic does not even exist to discuss the probability of all Gundam being licensed and hence that it should be considered licensed from the moment it airs. Once again, that is a very popular discussion, but not on topic here.

The only topic that this thread exists to discuss is whether theater filming is an acceptable way to get a raw. Or perhaps I should restate that: If theater filming is more unethical than illegal taping of TV broadcasts and DVD ripping. Yes, it is illegal to trade tapes of TV broadcasts. You are allowed to tape for personal use only.

As a final note, this discussion is utterly not binding on AnimeSuki. You are discussing it only for your own amusement. We feel that all relevant points (and there weren't many of them) have already been made. So - If this discussion wanders off topic again, I'll just close it since it is pretty much irrelevant.

[hooliganj]

Bah, I always seem to find a good thread right after NSW tells everyone to settle down.

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

The only topic that this thread exists to discuss is whether theater filming is an acceptable way to get a raw. Or perhaps I should restate that: If theater filming is more unethical than illegal taping of TV broadcasts and DVD ripping. Yes, it is illegal to trade tapes of TV broadcasts. You are allowed to tape for personal use only.

This is the point I wanted to expound upon. All distribution of fansubs is illegal, regardless of how the raw was obtained. This does not, however, mean that the fansub itself is illegal. When you tape a show off of TV or buy a VHS or DVD copy, you are allowed to do whatever you want with that copy, under the clause of 'fair use'. The cost that the company incurs from this is supposed to be reflected in the price of the product.

The ripped, translated and subtitled copy that is in the possession of the person who owns the original DVD or tape or subsribes to the TV station (even with PPV) is a legitimate copy.

A theater ticket does not grant the same rights. Even possessing a recording device in a theater is grounds to be removed, actually recording the film as it's playing is cause for arrest and charges of theft of intellectual property. The very recording itself is illegal.

To summarize: unlike DVD and TV subs, the raw itself is an illegal copy, there is no 'fair use', and, yes, I'd say this is a line that should not be crossed.

[Radd]

But surely to have any kind of reasonable debate on the topic of theatre ripped sources for fansubs, we must compare those to the alternatives.

[Leo_Otaku]

I don't see a huge problem. I mean we can't go to Japan and watch it. But it is stupid if someone would keep the crappy quality one in a movie theatre instead of buying it.
I mean I would download it but then if I liked it enough I would buy it.
Like the naruto movie can wait to be fansubbed but i mean the waiting is what people don't like.

[Dragoonmahn]

Originally Posted by kj1980

I refute your last statement on "free TV broadcast..."

Need I have to stress over and over again that most anime shows that you are watching via "fansubs" are shown on pay-per-view and subscriptional BS/CS satellite channels?

So, how is "theatre-ripping" and "fansubbing" different? They are equally on the same level. I have to pay 600 yen per airing of "Samurai 7" on CS SkyPerfectTV's PPV channel. I have to pay a monthly subscriptional service of 5000 yen to maintain my digital BS and CS satellite channels so I can watch TBS BS-i, Kids Station and ANIMAX. You guys don't.

Heck, even in normal "free service" VHF and UHF channels, you guys are getting a cheaper end of the deal. An anime show that aired in the Kanto region might not air in other parts of Japan until a week later. Heck, the big hit anime "Kaleidostar" which ended this spring in Tokyo, has only started begun airing its first episode in Hiroshima in July!

So you can't watch Japanese anime in "real time" as we do. Big deal. We wait several months for a big hit Hollywood movie to hit our movie theatres. We don't complain. We wait several months before a new season of a major hit American drama to air "dubbed" on our TV stations. We don't complain.

Yes indeed I agree to the fact that "fansubs" are somewhat postive in light as you guys can keep up with what anime is on in Japan right now. It is yet a known fact that "fansubs" are a double-edged sword.

My case however is that I see no difference from capturing a theatre show on a digital handicam versus fansubbing something that a Japanese person has to pay for to view.

Well, in that aspect I got it even worse. In israel we have to wait for months for american movie hits (we STILL don't have Catwoman). I pay 50$ a month for sattelite for 3-5 animes on all channels combined (not to mention the funky way we get them. They buy 20 episodes or so and air them, than don't get any more and just air those 20 episodes over and over and over again). Not to mention the fact that for most part we get the lamest ones out there (the 100th or so season of pokemon. Yu-gi-oh, Shinzo & Shaman king and the not so lame DBZ with horrible editing. Apperantly you can't show violence against woman, so Vidal's wounds magicaly appear) and if I want to get a DVD I have to travel for over 100km (60 miles). So yeah, it's no picknick here either...

[Cheesemon]

Sorry for bringing up a page two thread, but I became sick soon after posting this, and only got better recently to catch up. Thanks to everyone for commenting, I particularly have a new respect for teh_suck, who strikes me as one of the more intelligent members on this forum (though I think UPS is overrated, but that's another thread. ^^) I honestly thought a lot of people would be agreeing with me on this, but it looks like the poll is almost evenly split, so skimming through all those comments has been interesting.

I guess there's not much to say, but I'll add my comments anyway. I've been thinking, what makes theater-ripping so much more illegal? And don't think anyone has said this yet, but I think it's mainly about public vs. private. You sub TV shows or rip DVD's in the privacy of your own home. But when you go to a theater, your now in someone else's territory. The law aside, at the very least, it's pretty disrespectful doing something shady behind the back of your host. It's like throwing garbage in your own house vs. throwing garbage in your own home.

I've supported Animesuki because I believe in their main goal to promote unlicensed anime. FMA is probably gonna get a lot more viewers and R1 buyers because it was such a huge hit on Bittorrent. But I think a lot of anime movies will be successful without promotion; for example, will a theater rip of the Naruto movie gain the series more viewers and more popularity than it already has?

Someone said that you choose whether to download it or not -- but regardless, I think the Naruto movie would still get a ton of downloaders since it seems like every other post on AS's Naruto Movie thread is asking for the raw. I'm using this as an example because it shows that quality isn't necessarily an issue with every. Also, IF there are a lot of leechers and it popularizes theater-rips and fansubs, then now what is being promoted is that there may be more pressure to get people in Japan to go out and cam the movies. Fansub groups may start pushing their RAW encoders to do just that, and if they are caught, is the price to promote an anime movie a few months earlier from the DVD release worth some jail time? Promoting anime is one thing, promoting crime is another.

Crap, I'm so busy tonight, I promised myself not to spend so much time on this. Eh well, hope it makes sense.

BTW, my other goal of this thread was to learn more on Animesuki's policy on this, and from somewhere on this forum, I did read that animesuki will post any anime from any source, as long as its unlicensed and subbed. So there's my and your answer. ^^

[Aquillion]

Originally Posted by hooliganj

The ripped, translated and subtitled copy that is in the possession of the person who owns the original DVD or tape or subsribes to the TV station (even with PPV) is a legitimate copy.

Not necessarily. It's technially legal to make your own copies for personal use, yes; but most DVDs, tapes, broadcasts, etc. now contain anti-piracy measures that effectively prevent you from making those copies. In may places (in the US, for instance) bypassing those anti-piracy measures--even with a simple video-out plug--is every bit as criminal as taking a camcorder into a theatre. You might not agree with those laws, but that's where it stands at the moment; fair use rights in the US (and many other countries) have been vastly reduced from what they once were.

Furthermore, regardless of that situation the copyright-holder has exclusive rights to distribute their copyrighted material, as well as exclusive rights to distribute translations. That means that owning the original DVD or tape, or subscribing to the TV station, does not mean that anyone else can legally give you a copy. Even a raw would probably be illegal; a fansub definately is, since the person giving you the translated file has neither the right to distribute the original nor the right to distribute a derivative work (e.g. a translation.) For that same reason, even distributing a fansub file intended for use with a legitimate copy is illegal; the copyright holder has exclusive control over the distribution of all such translations.

Yes, it is legal to make your own copy of a copyrighted show for your personal use, and even subtitle it yourself--as long as you never give it to anyone, ever, under any circumstances. It doesn't matter if your friend bought the original five-hundred times over or holds a lifetime subscription to the station it aired on; the only people who can legally distribute it are the copyright holders.

Since what we're talking about here is recording things for the express purpose of coupling them with an unauthorized translation and distributing them online, any discussion of "fair use rights" is plainly moot; doing it from a DVD is merely more private than doing it from the screen, not more legal.

If none of that means anything to you, look at it like this--your argument holds the same flaw as all similar arguments made earlier, viz, that in your view it somehow becomes more legal/ethical/whatever to illegally distribute movies once they're available in high-quality DVD format. That conclusion is plainly absurd.

[hooliganj]

(...)your argument holds the same flaw as all similar arguments made earlier, viz, that in your view it somehow becomes more legal/ethical/whatever to illegally distribute movies once they're available in high-quality DVD format. That conclusion is plainly absurd.

(This thread is about thater bootlegs, after all.)

Did you mean to post this in the DVD rips thread? I kind of hinted about this over there, but you're right, it isn't really more legal than subbing off of TV. It would be incredibly absurd to assume that higher quality made it legal, which is why I never stated that anywhere.

In fact, you are echoing my point about 'fair use'. The only thing I disagree with you on is the ability to make copies of your own DVDs, since I believe that anti-piracy measures carry no legal backing whatsoever. That doesn't mean that they can't put them on there, but it's still legal to crack it and make your back-up copy, as long as you don't give your copy to anyone else.
/

Originally Posted by Cheesemon

regardless, I think the Naruto movie would still get a ton of downloaders

It's true a lot of people would download that movie, but you make a good point. The Naruto movie will not need to be fansubbed to be popular or to sell well once it hits DVD. A TV series that uses free exposure to reach it's audience might see some benefits from fansubs, and an OVA might be so obscure that no one would hear of it without the extra attention. Movies, especially ones based on popular series, are different. They are built on the business model of having to pay to see, so the company gains absolutely no benefit when someone starts distributing a free copy.

This argument is pretty sketchy and full of holes, but the point is that there is absolutely no good being done by distrbuting a theatrical bootleg.

[FinFangFoom]

IMO the biggest difference between a theater rip of a movie that will NEVER EVER EVER be realeased theatricaly outside of Japan and a TV rip or DVD rip that will absolutely with out a doubt be released on DVD and TV outside of Japan are this....

Since everyone is once again picking on Naruto fans (I would consider it almost a fact that the poll results would be much different if we were talking about anything other than Naruto) let's use Naruto as the example. Let's pretend that Naruto was licensed next week, after the famcam release has been widely distributed. And lets pretend that many people would no longer be able to download Naruto off the internet.

Which would the majority of the Naruto fans be more likely to buy DVD's of or watch on TV?

Episodes 1-100 which they have very high quality versions of sitting on their harddrives or burned to CD's?

or

Naruto the Movie which they have a very low grade version of with awful sound and crappy picture quality?

I think if you want to sit on an ethical high horse, you should argue that all fansubs should be famcam quality so that people who download them are more likely to buy them or watch them on TV when they become availible in their region.

[zalas]

Originally Posted by FinFangFoom

IMO the biggest difference between a theater rip of a movie that will NEVER EVER EVER be realeased theatricaly outside of Japan and a TV rip or DVD rip that will absolutely with out a doubt be released on DVD and TV outside of Japan are this....

What about movies that will most likely be released outside of Japan (any Ghibli movie, GITS2, etc.) and things on TV and DVD that will most likely never be released outside of Japan? (older mahou shoujo shows, etc.) If you're going to compare two things, at least put them on equal footing, instead of biasing your comparisons one way. If I'm going to compare price differences between PC games and console games, I sure won't compare Doom3 and Super Mario Bros.

Since everyone is once again picking on Naruto fans (I would consider it almost a fact that the poll results would be much different if we were talking about anything other than Naruto) let's use Naruto as the example. Let's pretend that Naruto was licensed next week, after the famcam release has been widely distributed. And lets pretend that many people would no longer be able to download Naruto off the internet.

Which would the majority of the Naruto fans be more likely to buy DVD's of or watch on TV?

Episodes 1-100 which they have very high quality versions of sitting on their harddrives or burned to CD's?

or

Naruto the Movie which they have a very low grade version of with awful sound and crappy picture quality?

If people are anxious enough to grab the camrip, why do you think they would be patient enough to wait for a Naruto movie DVD and buy it? They'd most likely watch it once and forget about it. There are a few exceptions, but from what I've seen of anime downloaders in the past years, the main reason people will download that cam rip is that it's out fast and it's free.

[FinFangFoom]

Originally Posted by zalas

What about movies that will most likely be released outside of Japan (any Ghibli movie, GITS2, etc.) and things on TV and DVD that will most likely never be released outside of Japan? (older mahou shoujo shows, etc.) If you're going to compare two things, at least put them on equal footing, instead of biasing your comparisons one way. If I'm going to compare price differences between PC games and console games, I sure won't compare Doom3 and Super Mario Bros.

Because main topic of this whole thread is not comparing things on equal footing. That was kind of my point. This is mainly about the upcoming Naruto movie, and if animesuki should list the famcam sub version. And I was saying that the fansubs of the TV show will have a much more negative effect on sales of the DVD or viewers of the TV show than the fancam of the movie would have on the sale of the movie DVD or veiwing of the movie if it was shown on TV.

Originally Posted by zalas

If people are anxious enough to grab the camrip, why do you think they would be patient enough to wait for a Naruto movie DVD and buy it? They'd most likely watch it once and forget about it. There are a few exceptions, but from what I've seen of anime downloaders in the past years, the main reason people will download that cam rip is that it's out fast and it's free.

Some people would not buy it. But my point is that if someone is a big Naruto fan, and the movie is good, which would they be more likely to buy? The first 100 episodes that they have saved in high quality format? Or the movie that they have saved in extremely low quality format?

If they liked the movie, they're going to want to see it done reasonably well. That is the reason that you hear people say all the time about speedsubbing of Naruto "I download the first one that comes out, then delete it when the anbu-aone version comes out. I burn that one for my collection."

People in this thread are talking about "crossing the line to far". Well, how do you judge what's to far over the line? I think common sense would say that when your comparing two things, the one that hurts the Japanese company the most would be the one that's most over the line. And I don't think it's possible to argue that crappy famcam subs hurt a company more than high quality TV or DVD subs. And if they somehow do hurt them more, nobody in this thread has effectivly argued that case.

[hooliganj]

(...) how do you judge what's to far over the line?

That's 'too far', and the debate largely centers around how many laws you break to get the fansub made. With TV and DVD, you aren't technically doing anything wrong when you rip the file, translate it and add subtitles; you only run afoul when you give the resulting file to someone else. Movies are different, you have to break another set of laws just to get the copy to begin with.

[Aquillion]

Originally Posted by hooliganj

(This thread is about thater bootlegs, after all.)

Did you mean to post this in the DVD rips thread? I kind of hinted about this over there, but you're right, it isn't really more legal than subbing off of TV. It would be incredibly absurd to assume that higher quality made it legal, which is why I never stated that anywhere.

Don't change the subject. You were comparing the ethics of DVD and movie rips, and doing so in a plainly bizarre fashion. That comparison is an important part of this discussion, since one simple way to weigh the ethics involved here is to compare the ethics of movie rips to things we already accept or reject.

And you did say that bootlegging from the higher-quality DVDs was more ethical. You said:

To summarize: unlike DVD and TV subs, the raw itself is an illegal copy, there is no 'fair use', and, yes, I'd say this is a line that should not be crossed.

That means that you think movie fansubs are worse, morally, than DVD-rip fansubs; that DVD-rip fansubs are, logically, more ethical than movie fansubs; and that it somehow becomes 'more ethical' to fansub a movie once you can do it from the DVD rips. I believe that position is indefensible.

In fact, you are echoing my point about 'fair use'. The only thing I disagree with you on is the ability to make copies of your own DVDs, since I believe that anti-piracy measures carry no legal backing whatsoever. That doesn't mean that they can't put them on there, but it's still legal to crack it and make your back-up copy, as long as you don't give your copy to anyone else.

The law (at least in the United States; and I know similar laws exist in Japan) does not agree with you on that point. The anti-circumvention sections of the DMCA are entirely unambiguous: if you crack the anti-piracy measures on a DVD, even with the intent to use it only for your own personal use, then you have broken the law. In cases like these, at least, these anti-circumvention laws make no exemption for fair use.

Furthermore, fansubbers (regardless of their source) are--by any modern standard--ripping the with the intent to break the law several times over, both by distributing an unauthorized translation and by illegally distributing copyrighted material. This renders the whole question of legality fairly moot.

Again, I'm not saying that traditional fansubs are evil and must be destroyed, nor am I saying that movie rips are all hunky-dory. My main objection is that many people here seem to be trying to make themselves feel better about watching the ripped DVD by drawing an imaginary line that makes it more ethical than a poor-quality theatre rip that they didn't want to see anyway.

[Grona]

ahhh, well it dosent matter on the country, you walk into a theater with a cam and record the movie your doing somthing that'll be seen as wrong. As in recording the N.movie, it isnt licenced here yet as far as I know so your not exactly breaking any lawas per say here, but if the person doing the recording over in Japan is caught he'll have a nice fine or jail time in his future. Of course the same thing can be said about DVD rips (and has it ever been said above, sheesh).


I never really like DVD rips, fansubs are supose to help those who dont know japanese understand the show and I see them as basicly getting high quality anime for free. The only subs I see as alright are those who are off tv, and to a lesser extent media that will never be released over here (OVAs and specials and stuff that may be on DVD).

[hooliganj]

The only point I made that even approached being an ethics argument was my (admittedly sketchy) point about the percieved benefits to the company. Everything else I've attempted to base on legal arguments, and there is a difference, big-time.

Take, as an example, illegal Marijuana. How is smoking pot unethical? You don't even do half the damage to your body that you get from cigarettes or beer, but those are OK? It's simply a case where the politicians' grip on reality is weaker than that of those who smoke the stuff, and that's saying something. But do I encourage people to buy, sell, or smoke pot? No, it's against the law. It has nothing to do with ethics.

Now that was to illustrate the difference between ethical and legal points. You may disagree, which brings up the primary difference between the two. Ethical points are based on a personal system of morality, and can change from person to person. If this argument was based on ethics, there would never be an end to it. The law, however, is, as you said, entirely unambiguous. Only on legal merits could the debate ever be settled.

Also, I haven't used quality as a basis of any of my arguments. You are the one who read that into them, and I take some offense in your persistant pecking to get me to back down on a point I never made. Let me try one more time: I agree with you. Stop being defensive about it, there's nobody at the gates.

Do you want my personal opinion, based on my own ethics? Alright, here goes: I agree with the people who say that whatever isn't available over here should get subbed, regardless of how or why. I have no love for the big companies that regularly seek to screw over their consumers, and I don't believe that it matters if someone takes a camera into a theater. Ignoring all the little interferences of reality, that would be my answer.

Life isn't like that, though, so that's not how it works. I buy the DVDs for stuff I like when I can. I also don't encourage people to break the law, because that's another part of my own personal ethics.

There isn't really anything that can be said here to change how I personally think about it, which is why I've stuck to the legal arguments. They are absolute, after all. It's no good going around trying to change people, better to leave the ethics to philosophers and parents.