[Manga] Chapter 515 Discussion

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by Death Liger

now i am 100% sure sixth coffin was Minato...

Minato is sealed in the Death God's stomach. Well half of him. If Edo Tensei could summon from the Death God then Kabuto would have the Hokages all there. And Madara doesn't strike me as being scared of Minato. He was scared by what was in that coffin.

Originally Posted by kitten320

Haku could have easily killed them back then yet his kindness didn't allow him. Now he doesn't have any restrictions. I really wouldn't cross him and Zabuza out so easily.

His greatest restriction is that he died at 15. The zombies are brought back as they were at the moment of their deaths.

So he couldn't progress. His databooks stats when he died add up to 21. That would put him around Tenten's level. The other Konoha kids have passed him. Now as a zombie with no kind streak, he gets upgraded. But compare him to someone like Asuma who totals 32.5 or Chiyo at 32. Even Zabuza at 30.5, Dan at 31.5, or Hizashi at 29.5. He clearly doesn't measure up to the other zombies there. Only maybe that Yu girl might be weaker.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

Minato is sealed in the Death God's stomach. Well half of him. If Edo Tensei could summon from the Death God then Kabuto would have the Hokages all there. And Madara doesn't strike me as being scared of Minato. He was scared by what was in that coffin.

Minato was not only able to injury Madara quite easily, but on top of that, he developed and utilized a seal/fuinjutsu that prevented Madara from controlling the Kyuubi (possibly from ever controlling the Kyuubi again). So yeah, Minato is a real threat.

That being said, I also doubt it was Minato in the box...

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

So he couldn't progress. His databooks stats when he died add up to 21. That would put him around Tenten's level. The other Konoha kids have passed him. Now as a zombie with no kind streak, he gets upgraded. But compare him to someone like Asuma who totals 32.5 or Chiyo at 32. Even Zabuza at 30.5, Dan at 31.5, or Hizashi at 29.5. He clearly doesn't measure up to the other zombies there. Only maybe that Yu girl might be weaker.

Data Book entries don't really mean anything (or at least, the statistics do not mean what many audience members use them for), so using them for arguments concerning a character’s strength in comparison to other characters is mostly meaningless...

[Cub-Sama]

I just realized how OP bringing Chiyo back is, she can bring people back to life using her chakra but now that she is a zombie she wont die.

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by james0246

Minato was not only able to injury Madara quite easily, but on top of that, he developed and utilized a seal/fuinjutsu that prevented Madara from controlling the Kyuubi (possibly from ever controlling the Kyuubi again). So yeah, Minato is a real threat.

That being said, I also doubt it was Minato in the box...

I never said Madara didn't see Minato as a threat. But whoever was in that coffin scared Madara. And I don't see anyone we have met so far in the story doing that. He doesn't even fear Tobirama as much as he is obsessed with him.

I am in the camp that believes he saw his real identity/body.

Originally Posted by james0246

Data Book entries don't really mean anything (or at least, the statistics do not mean what many audience members use them for), so using them for arguments concerning a character’s strength in comparison to other characters is mostly meaningless...

The databook stats can be useful even if Kishimtoto and a few assistants threw them together. They are facts. Cold hard logic that is emotionless. They don't have a bias. Unlike every fan of Naruto with their favorite characters.

Go into a forum of Neji fans and some there will tell you he is capable of beating Sasuke, Naruto, Itachi, etc, and is strong as a Kage. Since a lot of what we see in the manga is based on opinion, not much will change their minds. But his databook stats clearly show Kishimoto put well him behind Sasuke and any of the elite fighters. Doesn't mean he couldn't beat Sasuke. I suppose Ino or Tenten could also in theory. Just that he would be a huge underdog.

Another example. I've already heard some fans say Asuma was a lame jonin and didn't deserve to be raised. Honestly, you might agree with that based on the fact we didn't see much of him fight like Gai or Kakashi. But when you look at his databook stats, you realize how extremely powerful Asuma was. He is actually one of the strongest zombies outside of the Kages and Hanzo.

They are just a tool. But combined with what we see in the manga, a very useful one.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

I just realized how OP bringing Chiyo back is, she can bring people back to life using her chakra but now that she is a zombie she wont die.

She can bring back someone in exchange for her own life, but she does not have a life any more, so she can't resurrect anyone.

[tkdtiger]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

I never said Madara didn't see Minato as a threat. But whoever was in that coffin scared Madara. And I don't see anyone we have met so far in the story doing that. He doesn't even fear Tobirama as much as he is obsessed with him.

I am in the camp that believes he saw his real identity/body.


The databook stats can be useful even if Kishimtoto and a few assistants threw them together. They are facts. Cold hard logic that is emotionless. They don't have a bias. Unlike every fan of Naruto with their favorite characters.

Go into a forum of Neji fans and some there will tell you he is capable of beating Sasuke, Naruto, Itachi, etc, and is strong as a Kage. Since a lot of what we see in the manga is based on opinion, not much will change their minds. But his databook stats clearly show Kishimoto put well him behind Sasuke and any of the elite fighters. Doesn't mean he couldn't beat Sasuke. I suppose Ino or Tenten could also in theory. Just that he would be a huge underdog.

Another example. I've already heard some fans say Asuma was a lame jonin and didn't deserve to be raised. Honestly, you might agree with that based on the fact we didn't see much of him fight like Gai or Kakashi. But when you look at his databook stats, you realize how extremely powerful Asuma was. He is actually one of the strongest zombies outside of the Kages and Hanzo.

They are just a tool. But combined with what we see in the manga, a very useful one.

Actually I believe the databook numbers doesn't show their overall strength, but rather their potential. A 5 would mean that they already maxed out their potential in that area not nec. that they're stronger.

[Kallen4life]

an example from databooks .. Kiba, Gai and Itachi all have 5 in speed .. now, both Gai and Itachi would kill Kiba before he can blink .. this simply means that for Kiba speed (along with str) is his greatest advantage .. HIS speed is a 5, but that 5 is far from Gai's or Itachi's 5 .. although, tbh here I fail to see how Kiba has 5 speed and Lee doesn't


or Orochi & Itachi both have 5 in genjutsu - Itachi's is obviously better, he even cast one on Oro when the latter attempted to possess Itachi's body .. I mean Sharingan = best genjutsu .. but Orochi probably has the best non-Sharingan genjutsu, hence the 5

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

Actually I believe the databook numbers doesn't show their overall strength, but rather their potential. A 5 would mean that they already maxed out their potential in that area not nec. that they're stronger.

There was a stat for potential. It was called Latent Potential on a 0-5 scale. Sasuke, Naruto and Haku all had a max 5 potential. Most of the rookies, Neji, and Lee had a 4. I believe Ino, Choji, and Tenten had a 3.

This stat didn't carry over to the third databook.

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

an example from databooks .. Kiba, Gai and Itachi all have 5 in speed .. now, both Gai and Itachi would kill Kiba before he can blink .. this simply means that for Kiba speed (along with str) is his greatest advantage .. HIS speed is a 5, but that 5 is far from Gai's or Itachi's 5 .. although, tbh here I fail to see how Kiba has 5 speed and Lee doesn't

Kiba is 4.5 in speed. It's his only good stat. The rest are average to below average. Which is why Kiba is not thought of as one of the better rookies.

I understand that two characters can have a 5 in the same category and be different. Shikamaru had a 5 in intelligence since the first databook. His 5 is obviously higher than even Itachi or Kakashi's 5 and should be judged differently. On a 1-10 scale, he'd be a 10 in intelligence. While Itachi and Kakashi might be a 9. This is why I wish Kishimoto would have gone 1-10 with the stats to make things clearer.

That's why I said the databook isn't perfect. Just a tool.

[Kallen4life]

ah, you're right, Kiba has 4.5, my bad

On a 1-10 scale, he'd be a 10 in intelligence. While Itachi and Kakashi might be a 9. This is why I wish Kishimoto would have gone 1-10 with the stats to make things clearer.

well technically he is using .5's too, so it's a 10 scale .. and I think Kakashi & Itachi can match Shika here - if anything, they have more experience and the same mindset .. Shika is the genius among the Konoha rookie

with some more experience he'll probably genuinely become the only person worthy of a 10

[Ero-Senn1n]

It's useless to have a 1-5 or 1-10 scale, in shonen manga it should be something similar to the windows performance index. Which means there is no upper bound, and also the overall performance index is equal to the weakest component's performance. In this case if Naruto is very weak in genjutsu his overall performance index would be very weak simply because his enemies would keep using genjutsu to beat him. But shonen manga plots are not based on logic

[Kallen4life]

true, but stats are still fun and do reflect a person's basic skill set and strengths/weaknesses

[solidguy]

Originally Posted by Lunarskylar

hahah and maybe the next arc if there is one will be her body?
poor shizune

here's another few questions i have... #1 if madara is trying to take over teh world with this war, then why does teh shinobi army believe that he'll go through the effort of going to them when from the map, he could easily attack leaf, sand and stone, since the majority of the military forces from all these countries are in cloud, which isn'tttt so close

lol exactly what i first thought

[Sir-Nemesis]

Coming soon: Tsunade vs Zombie Tsunade XD

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Sir-Nemesis

Coming soon: Tsunade vs Zombie Tsunade XD

'Twould be cool if Kabuto can summon characters that died but were brought back. We could see Gaara vs. Gaara, and Kakashi vs. Kakashi fight ... Or, better yet, those characters that have been resurrected (Gaara, Shizune, Kakashi), can be un-resurrected (my own new word ) by those that brought them back; so Chiyo can un-resurrect Gaara, and Nagato can un-resurrect most of Konoha .

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

If you mean the spikey-haired guy, then that's Motoi's dad.

They look nothing alike and do not have the same uniform.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Oh goodie. So Edo Tensei allows the user to effectively bring people back to life at absolutely no cost to the user.
[...]
Oh I'm sorry. I just assumed that defying the laws of life and death would, you know, require a fair amount of energy. But nope, you can do that for free.

It requires the life of someone else in order to anchor the soul to its vessel but :

It's all magic.

Yes it is, did you realize just now that the rule of this universe is chakra did it?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Yes it is, did you realize just now that the rule of this universe is chakra did it?

Ah, in that you are wrong my friend. 'Tis not chakra that "did it", but rather the Rinnegan that did it .

[Hunter]

Heh. Seems like we have a chicken or the egg dilemma on our hands... And I will thus firmly stand on the side of the egg : for a Rinnegan to occur and jutsu to be discovered there must have been chakra first. And before them both, Kishomoto came first, ah!

[Shiryuu]

Actually rinnegan came first, which forced/made chakra into reality, then jutsu is developed.

[lucasd]

The beast was first juubi and it was made of chakra, hence they existed before. Sage maybe was the one to developed techniques more.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Hunter

They look nothing alike and do not have the same uniform.

Oh yes, thank you. Upon closer inspection you'll see that Motoi's dad wears glasses, has his spiky hair bunched up and wears a distinctly different, but nonetheless equally dull, uniform. Master of original design, that Kishi.

Yes it is, did you realize just now that the rule of this universe is chakra did it?

Again, yes thank you. I did just realize that chakra no longer has any rules or limitations, and is now effectively magic and can do whatever is convenient for the plot, and it's been that way at least since Sasuke's asspull victory against Deidara. I don't know why I didn't realize it sooner.

Originally Posted by james0246

Ah, in that you are wrong my friend. 'Tis not chakra that "did it", but rather the Rinnegan that did it .

Wrong again. It was the Rikudo Six-Path Sage who did it by magically creating stuff because he felt like it and then divided the powers of deus ex machina and plot device into two different clans so they could have vaguely-defined hax powers because honestly who gives a fuck.