US Elections 2012 Part I: The Primaries/Caucus

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

Export is defined as changing ownership from a citizen (or corporation) of the state to someone from a foreign state.
The parts most likely come from an even lower wage country.
The finished car belongs to VW, because they paid for building it, then it is sold somewhere other than Germany and that counts as an export. But the money they invested to build the car, was mostly paid to foreign entities and the money they will get from selling them will be reinvested in the same way. So even though it creates a huge plus on the German export balance, it barely has anything to do with Germany at all.

Wrong wrong. Parts require precision engineering. In fact, Parts is what Germany's industry specialises in. It's not glamorous, but it's important.

Precision made parts made in Japan is (one among many) reasons why Toyota routinely beat GM in Auto making.

Here's a list of all of Volkswagen's Factories. Volkswagen has 61 factories worldwide, 16 of them located in Germany, and the vast majority of the rest being located in other parts of Europe. Not only that, but in terms of Employees, most of their plants are ~3000 workers, but the plants in Germany employ substantially more, 2 of their plants there employ over 40,000 people, with several others employing ~20,000. The largest factory outside Germany is their factory in Mexico, employing 13,000 people.

It's a similiar story for Toyota, 15 of their plants are located in Japan (12 of which in and around toyota city), with many other sdotted around the world. The country with the most plants outside Japan is actually the USA, with 6 plants in all.

That doesn't include all the plants that Volkswagen subcontracts to of course, which are likely located near their other plants, and are likely agin to be primarily located in Europe.

In all, 866,000 people in Germany work in the Automotive industry. 6 million cars are produced yearly in Germany, while 5.5 million are produced abroad by german brands.

EDIT: Here's a better page with Volkwagen's various factories, notice the concentration in Europe. Also, a lot of the plants outside Germany (for instance in Eastern Europe, Scandinavia etc.) are not Volkwagen, but other afiliated brands (like Skoda, Scania etc.)

@Zetsubo If you want a good example of why GM did so badly against Toyota, listen to this radio documentary.

[Zetsubo]

I still think the bulk of the Obama administrations policy development and implementation problems lies solely in the the scorn and mule like resistance at the hands of desperate republicans, and the idiotic birther's and tea party coooks.

Repsponsible opposition helps to grow a nation... but the bulk of the opposition Obama faced was more along the lines of tantrums and vendettas.

I am still in shock that there were people who decidedly chose to "ensure he does not get elected to a second term"

I thought the American way was to let a president perform to the best of his ability, or lack thereof, and then allow the voters to vote him in or out.

But to have a politician decide to become a millstone about his own country's neck, to hobble the progress of the United States, just so that he can see one man out of office is despicable.

How could they do this ?

What was so bad about Obama that you couldn't allow the voting public to decide for themselves ?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

I still think the bulk of the Obama administrations policy development and implementation problems lies solely in the the scorn and mule like resistance at the hands of desperate republicans, and the idiotic birther's and tea party coooks.

Repsponsible opposition helps to grow a nation... but the bulk of the opposition Obama faced was more along the lines of tantrums and vendettas.

I am still in shock that there were people who decidedly chose to "ensure he does not get elected to a second term"

I thought the American way was to let a president perform to the best of his ability, or lack thereof, and then allow the voters to vote him in or out.

But to have a politician decide to become a millstone about his own country's neck, to hobble the progress of the United States, just so that he can see one man out of office is despicable.

How could they do this ?

What was so bad about Obama that you couldn't allow the voting public to decide for themselves ?

Because they don't believe Democrats are "REAL" Americans. So it is okay to do this because Obama is an alien invader.

Talking to a hardcore Republican, I was convinced that he believe Obama is pure evil, and that he would be happier to have a convicted rapist/Satan be President instead.

I don't blame the Republican Party for doing what they did. I blame its retarded party members to go along with it.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Bri

The importance of exports for the really large economies like the US, EU and China is often exaggerated. Historically US and EU exports rarely exceeded 10% of GDP. Production is focused on the domestic market. Currently about 5% of Chinese GDP depends on exports to the US. A US tariff-wall would hurt Chinese growth figures but it wouldn't exactly crash their economy.

While crashing their economy may have been too strong a word, it would do more than just hurt their growth figures even if it only makes up 5% of the Chinese GDP. They're so tied with "American" companies that do more than just ship products back to America, that if a tariff wall were to pull said companies back to America or, at least, into a non-tariffed country, China would be hit hard. Not to mention that the entire country would lose a good chunk of its imported innovation which, in general, doesn't come from their own people.

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Because they don't believe Democrats are "REAL" Americans. So it is okay to do this because Obama is an alien invader.

Talking to a hardcore Republican, I was convinced that he believe Obama is pure evil, and that he would be happier to have a convicted rapist/Satan be President instead.

I don't blame the Republican Party for doing what they did. I blame its retarded party members to go along with it.

But even if the Democrats are not "REAL Americans" hurting the whole nation just to get rid of them is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Simple republican solution: Help the Dems to BECOME REAL Americans and grow the nation.

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

I still think the bulk of the Obama administrations policy development and implementation problems lies solely in the the scorn and mule like resistance at the hands of desperate republicans, and the idiotic birther's and tea party coooks.

Repsponsible opposition helps to grow a nation... but the bulk of the opposition Obama faced was more along the lines of tantrums and vendettas.

I am still in shock that there were people who decidedly chose to "ensure he does not get elected to a second term"

I thought the American way was to let a president perform to the best of his ability, or lack thereof, and then allow the voters to vote him in or out.

But to have a politician decide to become a millstone about his own country's neck, to hobble the progress of the United States, just so that he can see one man out of office is despicable.

How could they do this ?

What was so bad about Obama that you couldn't allow the voting public to decide for themselves ?

Because they don't give two craps about the American people. When they say DC politicians live in a bubble, they aren't exaggerating. They run in the same, very small, very isolated, very wealthy circles, with little outside perspective intruding. The plights of ordinary folks are often outside of their reality. And on those occasions when it does, it's either ignored or viciously attacked.

And it's not just "people" who decided to make it their priority that Obama doesn't get reelected. The Senate Minority leader himself said it - it's as good as the GOP's official platform. From day one, it's been pretty obvious they had zero interest in actual governing; their prime objective is simply to oppose Obama at every turn, while simultaneously providing massive tax breaks for their rich patrons/masters.

Even recently, take a look at the debate over extending the payroll tax holiday. For the last several years the GOP has been frothing at the mouth in rage over any potential tax increases of any kind, no ifs, ands or buts.

But then, fast forward towards the end of 2011, and Obama comes out for extending the tax holiday, suddenly the Republican leadership decide they don't like that idea. They don't like it one bit. So Bayin' Boehner decides to kill the extension, which meant on Jan 1 of this year, taxes went up for 160 million Americans. You know, tax increases. Gee, I could've sworn I heard something somewhere about that being something the GOP was against...

This is their only logic (well, one of the big ones). Obama, to them, was never a legitimate president, cannot be allowed to exercise his powers, and must be opposed and blamed at every single turn, even if he's supporting something they agreed with all along.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

But even if the Democrats are not "REAL Americans" hurting the whole nation just to get rid of them is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Simple republican solution: Help the Dems to BECOME REAL Americans and grow the nation.

Republicans also assume that the only way for Democrats to become REAL Americans, is by becoming Republicans themselves.

Wild West mentality. The only good Democrat is a dead one. Insane, yes, but being insane isn't illegal.

Because they don't give two craps about the American people. When they say DC politicians live in a bubble, they aren't exaggerating. They run in the same, very small, very isolated, very wealthy circles, with little outside perspective intruding. The plights of ordinary folks are often outside of their reality. And on those occasions when it does, it's ignored or viciously attacked.

And it's not just "people" who decided to make it their priority that Obama doesn't get reelected. The Senate Minority leader himself said it - it's as good as the GOP's official platform. From day one, it's been pretty obvious they had zero interest in actual governing; their prime objective is simply to oppose Obama at every turn, while simultaneously providing massive tax breaks for their rich patrons/masters.

Even recently, take a look at the debate over extending the payroll tax holiday. For the last several years the GOP has been frothing at the mouth in rage over any potential tax increases of any kind, no ifs, ands or buts.

But then, fast forward towards the end of 2011, and Obama comes out for extending the tax holiday, suddenly the Republican leadership decide they don't like that idea. They don't like it one bit. So Bayin' Boehner decides to kill the extension, which meant on Jan 1 of this year, taxes went up for 160 million Americans. You know, tax increases. Gee, I could've sworn I heard something somewhere about that being something the GOP was against...

This is their only logic (well, one of the big ones). Obama, to them, was never a legitimate president, cannot be allowed to exercise his powers, and must be opposed and blamed at every single turn, even if he's supporting something they agreed with all along.

Once again, it is one thing that GOP did this. But it is entirely another that GOP voters took the excuse at face value. If GOP Voters are willing to take something this illogical, then that's the kind of GOP they deserve.

And if the GOP win POTUS this year using this platform, then the voters are responsible. I refuse to excuse voters from their own responsibilities in a democracy.

Obama is nowhere as good as anyone hoped, but he is BETTER than the garbage on the other side.

But you only get the democratic government you deserve. If America want GOP, that's what they will get.

[Zetsubo]

No politician, in my view, has the right to determine if a man or woman should be re-elected or not.

This is a matter for the people to decide.

The people are who you serve, it is they, the people, who actually WIN the elections... not the politicians.

If Obama was voted in, then the MAJORITY of the people decided he was the man for the job.

The same with G.W.BUSH

If the people wanted G.W.Bush for POTUS then he should be sworn into office and be allowed to carfry out his duties without the interference of vindictive politicians.

And he did... he went to war in IRAQ... and if he could have, IRAN and N.Korea as well.

It seems to me the reps are spoil sports fuming at the mouth because the PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WANTED TO BELIEVE IN OBAMA AND PUT HIM IN A POSITION OF POWER TO CARRY OUT THEIR DREAMS AND DESIRES.

That is what the president is.

The first representative of the people.

So why then do you selectable bash the man and hinder him.

Let him fail on his OWN lack of skill in carrying out the tasks of chief servant.

Let Obama fail on his own.

DO NOT HELP OBAMA TO FAIL.


Doing is un American.
As far as I see it... this decades bunch of Republicans are UN AMERICAN IN EVERY ASPECT because they are deliberate trying to invalidate the wishes of the Majority of people who put Obama in office... telling them that they are dumb for doing so.

Let Democracy run its natural course.

Let the natural selection of the vote mean something.

Merit or DeMerit

This repugnant politics is making me ill.

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Republicans also assume that the only way for Democrats to become REAL Americans, is by becoming Republicans themselves.

Wild West mentality. The only good Democrat is a dead one. Insane, yes, but being insane isn't illegal.


Once again, it is one thing that GOP did this. But it is entirely another that GOP voters took the excuse at face value. If GOP Voters are willing to take something this illogical, then that's the kind of GOP they deserve.

And if the GOP win POTUS this year using this platform, then the voters are responsible. I refuse to excuse voters from their own responsibilities in a democracy.

Obama is nowhere as good as anyone hoped, but he is BETTER than the garbage on the other side.

But you only get the democratic government you deserve. If America want GOP, that's what they will get.

Oh he is absolutely better than what the GOP is offering. And yes, voters do have responsibility here, but keep in mind that many are simply uninformed, willfully or not. Let's face it, many Republican voters hate Obama just as much as their politicians, and likewise want him out of office at any cost, because Fox News told them to.

Also keep in mind the GOP's efforts, especially their recent ones, at disenfranchisement. Their recent attempts at Voter ID laws, Jim Crow resurrected in a less menacing guise. Such laws, like it or not, primarily affect people of low-income, minorities, etc. - in other words, people who generally vote Democrat.

So you see, even if America doesn't want the GOP, the GOP is doing their best to make sure that doesn't matter.

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

So you see, even if America doesn't want the GOP, the GOP is doing their best to make sure that doesn't matter.

That is UN AMERICAN !

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

Oh he is absolutely better than what the GOP is offering. And yes, voters do have responsibility here, but keep in mind that many are simply uninformed, willfully or not. Let's face it, many Republican voters hate Obama just as much as their politicians, and likewise want him out of office at any cost, because Fox News told them to.

Also keep in mind the GOP's efforts, especially their recent ones, at disenfranchisement. Their recent attempts at Voter ID laws, Jim Crow resurrected in a less menacing guise. Such laws, like it or not, primarily affect people of low-income, minorities, etc. - in other words, people who generally vote Democrat.

So you see, even if America doesn't want the GOP, the GOP is doing their best to make sure that doesn't matter.

That still doesn't change the fact that the Republican voters are still voting Republican. Being uninformed is a choice. If they want to do what Fox News told them, that's their right. Democracy does not need everyone to make the right choice, only that they make a choice.

As I say, the GOP only does what works for them. And that they do works because of their supporters. And if they win it is because they outnumber the voters on the other side. While the majority of American voters stay home and do nothing.
Changing the system can't happen unless you change the minds of people on an individual level. All well and good to say the system isn't fair, the only real question is what you are going to do about it.

[solomon]

Even though I don't agree with GOP voters. I also don't like making them out like they are stupid people who just blindly follow whatever (such and such) tells them.

Because I have to be frank the same thing can happen in African American circles. Some of us are just uniformly democrat for tradition despite the fact that some Democratic leaders are pathetic (this is more of an urban big city thing rather than a congressional thing, but you get what I mean). Then you have people who always vote on the labor ticket.

That doesn't mean it's a majority. I think that the average american voter is more moderate than either party will normally bay and haw to, GOP included.

I do agree with Xagan's general feeling though. The argument over the payroll tax was laughable. Repubs turned on their head just get at Obama, cause it was close to election time. I don't deny that Dems wouldn't do the same thing in some fashion if they were on the Republicans shoes.

Thing is with the GOP is that it's so rigid. Democratic party is somewhat more big tent. No moderate Republicans in Congress save for maybe Olympia Snowe in Maine. But that's what GOP constituents want. Can't blame the party for that.

I won't mollycoddle them over the Obama birther thing and the constant "Barack Hussein Obama" that's just well white racism frankly. Such views also poison the immigration debate,

Conservatives have legitamte claims to arguments of just how much low wage unskilled labor the country can take, that's a pragmatic question.

However, part of it is just due to racism. And history can bare this out. It happened with the Irish, Chinese and now Hispanics. And that alienates not only illegal workers but a lot of home grown Hispanics as well.

Not to mention the very narrow minded approach to Muslims.

Adding to that and the whole anti-gay ANYTHING nonsense, and that's why I just don't trust a primarily Republican government right now.

They are too rigid and believe any form of compromise is EVIL. That works some times but it this system it's just wildly unpragmatic. If we had more moderate Republicans then I'd be more willing to listen to and support them. We have them at local levels, but not nationally.

[Ithekro]

I won't mollycoddle them over the Obama birther thing and the constant "Barack Hussein Obama" that's just well white racism frankly. Such views also poison the immigration debate,

Remember, to this group, Obama is an illegal President. They will follow nothing he says, they will not listen to him if they can avoid it, and will fight anything he does.

We aren't taking "hanging chad" illegal dabate from 2000, we are talking "not a native born citizen" illegal under the Constitution. We are talking "enemy in the White House", if they believe him to be Muslim. This is before the racism kicks in. At which point you have people going off about half-bloods, growing up in a Muslim country, Not being part of the African American community until late...bring from wealth and thus shouldn't have any understanding about "the poor black man" that comes up from time to time in racial disputes. As well as questioning his citizenship based on his father being a British citizen (later Kenya). This even if they have decided to give up the quest to have him not have been born in Hawaii, or fiddly bits about his mother's citizenship based on residence, Hawaii being a Territory up until 1959, and any host of other things they could think up that I only half remember from debating people (over it and if it was "really" important)

Basically Obama is everything they don't want to see. Even without the race question, they see him as a foreigner. A foreigner that by the law of the land (the Constitution) should not be able to be President. Thus a breakdown of the laws. They see him as a Muslim in a time when most of our enemies in combat have been Muslims (Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, hostile with Iran), because we haven't been trading shots as often with the North Koreans or Chinese. Thus a breakdown not only of the relgious order of things (if they care about that), but also "sleeping with the enemy", or "the enemy in charge". I'd say they see him a a liar, but then "politician", to many, means the same thing. And after all that and the Party lines, we get to race.

What I wonder, is if he had run as a Republican (somehow), would he still be getting flak from these same people? Considering the things they are against, it is unlikely he'd make it in the Republican Party to begin with, so that might be amoot point.

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Remember, to this group, Obama is an illegal President. They will follow nothing he says, they will not listen to him if they can avoid it, and will fight anything he does.

We aren't taking "hanging chad" illegal dabate from 2000, we are talking "not a native born citizen" illegal under the Constitution. We are talking "enemy in the White House", if they believe him to be Muslim. This is before the racism kicks in. At which point you have people going off about half-bloods, growing up in a Muslim country, Not being part of the African American community until late...bring from wealth and thus shouldn't have any understanding about "the poor black man" that comes up from time to time in racial disputes. As well as questioning his citizenship based on his father being a British citizen (later Kenya). This even if they have decided to give up the quest to have him not have been born in Hawaii, or fiddly bits about his mother's citizenship based on residence, Hawaii being a Territory up until 1959, and any host of other things they could think up that I only half remember from debating people (over it and if it was "really" important)

Basically Obama is everything they don't want to see. Even without the race question, they see him as a foreigner. A foreigner that by the law of the land (the Constitution) should not be able to be President. Thus a breakdown of the laws. They see him as a Muslim in a time when most of our enemies in combat have been Muslims (Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, hostile with Iran), because we haven't been trading shots as often with the North Koreans or Chinese. Thus a breakdown not only of the relgious order of things (if they care about that), but also "sleeping with the enemy", or "the enemy in charge". I'd say they see him a a liar, but then "politician", to many, means the same thing. And after all that and the Party lines, we get to race.

What I wonder, is if he had run as a Republican (somehow), would he still be getting flak from these same people? Considering the things they are against, it is unlikely he'd make it in the Republican Party to begin with, so that might be amoot point.

I thought if anything, his rise to prominence would have been a hallmark of American liberty and justice. The chance for ANY person to rise in the ranks of society based on hard work and merit.

Didn't Arnold Schwarznegger, an Austrian, rise to prominence and power through hard work (even on his accent) and even married into a branch of the Kennedy family ?

Wasn't Obama supposed to a symbolic representation of the American dream.

That all men are created equal in this land... and that all have the chance to make something magnificent out of their lives ?

I thought it would have been a proud moment for them to say this is a positive change for the USA because now you wont have so many "Angry black men" filling the prisons as they see that they too can rise into power if they work for it properly ?

Wasn't it supposed to be a showcase of how free the USA is for the rest of the world ?

[Irenicus]

Why are you asking us? If you haven't noticed, we're a bunch of Japan-loving liberals over here. As far as the people hanging around this General Chat area is concerned, Bush would never have been elected and the USA would be sporting a universal healthcare system right about now. If you want to know the real answer of the hatred for Obama you're better off trolling some Republican forums. Be prepared to get flamed and banned though, and make sure to read between the lines to figure out what's really driving at them.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

I thought if anything, his rise to prominence would have been a hallmark of American liberty and justice. The chance for ANY person to rise in the ranks of society based on hard work and merit.

Didn't Arnold Schwarznegger, an Austrian, rise to prominence and power through hard work (even on his accent) and even married into a branch of the Kennedy family ?

Wasn't Obama supposed to a symbolic representation of the American dream.

That all men are created equal in this land... and that all have the chance to make something magnificent out of their lives ?

I thought it would have been a proud moment for them to say this is a positive change for the USA because now you wont have so many "Angry black men" filling the prisons as they see that they too can rise into power if they work for it properly ?

Wasn't it supposed to be a showcase of how free the USA is for the rest of the world ?

It's a nice story, but here's the reality: Obama is a plastic orator no different from his new rival Mitt Romney. If anything I'd trust Romney more (and I hate Romney) with Obama's ties to Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase, Citigroup, Lehman Brothers, and Morgan Stanley all contributing to his campaign and him earning money from these questionable groups during his senate run.

The liberal vs conservative debate can wait, until we get rid of these corporatist monsters on both sides of the party line.

[Ithekro]

For Schwarznegger, there is no cover of his roots, so no one would question where he is from. He is an Austrian, and no one really questions it.

He also can't run for President because he is not a "natural born citizen of the United States". If he tried he would be disqualified on that basis. Unless the rules were changed (which has been suggested a few times...sometimes specifically for Schwarznegger to be able to run"). If the rules were changed, the "birthers" would have no problem with Obama (on that issue at least). Because they contend Obama was not born in this country (via whatever thing they've picked out) he should have been disqualifed from running for President.

What is funny to me, is that the "birthers" were originally Democrats...Hillary Clinton's supporters. It spread to the Republicans who hold onto it since Hillary got the Secretary of State position. (Now if you wanted a stuck up bitch for President, that's your issue. She was a stuck up bitch in High School, and from all accounts she's still a stuck up bitch).

I wonder if McCain has won, if there would be "birthers" because of him being born in Panama (well, the U.S. Canal Zone actually).

Requirements to be President under the Constitution:

Article II, Section 1, Clause 5

• be a natural born citizen of the United States;
• be at least thirty-five years old;
• have been a permanent resident in the United States for at least fourteen years.

and if they pass that:

• • Under the Twenty-second Amendment, no person can be elected president more than twice. The amendment also specifies that if any eligible person who serves as president or acting president for more than two years of a term for which some other eligible person was elected president, the former can only be elected president once. Scholars disagree whether anyone no longer eligible to be elected president could be elected vice president, pursuant to the qualifications set out under the Twelfth Amendment.

  • Under Article I, Section 3, Clause 7, upon conviction in impeachment cases, the Senate has the option of disqualifying convicted individuals from holding other federal offices, including the presidency.

  • Under Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment, the Constitution prohibits a person from becoming president who swore an oath to support the Constitution and later rebelled against the United States. However, the Congress, by a two-thirds vote of each house, can remove the disqualification.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

For Schwarznegger, there is no cover of his roots, so no one would question where he is from. He is an Austrian, and no one really questions it.

He also can't run for President because he is not a "natural born citizen of the United States". If he tried he would be disqualified on that basis. Unless the rules were changed (which has been suggested a few times...sometimes specifically for Schwarznegger to be able to run"). If the rules were changed, the "birthers" would have no problem with Obama (on that issue at least). Because they contend Obama was not born in this country (via whatever thing they've picked out) he should have been disqualifed from running for President.

What is funny to me, is that the "birthers" were originally Democrats...Hillary Clinton's supporters. It spread to the Republicans who hold onto it since Hillary got the Secretary of State position. (Now if you wanted a stuck up bitch for President, that's your issue. She was a stuck up bitch in High School, and from all accounts she's still a stuck up bitch).

Not that it's my country, but personally, I want a president that gets the job done. Being a stuck up bitch isn't a crime like pedophilia or even petty theft, so I wouldn't care. Unless I was some kind of cabinet member or presidential aide or something.

[solomon]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

Why are you asking us? If you haven't noticed, we're a bunch of Japan-loving liberals over here. As far as the people hanging around this General Chat area is concerned, Bush would never have been elected and the USA would be sporting a universal healthcare system right about now. If you want to know the real answer of the hatred for Obama you're better off trolling some Republican forums. Be prepared to get flamed and banned though, and make sure to read between the lines to figure out what's really driving at them.

AHAHAHAA JAPAN LOVING??!!!!!

Dude, I admit that I am Liberal, but I am open minded, I can get with a conservative party dependent on the situation.

But while I like some Japan media, love the language and am moderately interested in culture from afar, I have NO HARD ON FOR JAPAN SOCIETY AND CULTURE. I'm too American, sorry.

And No Ithekro McCain can play the True Blooded Service to American Military card, no one would question it.

The idea the federal government regardess of party would be SO STUPID to allow someone who had LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS about his citizenship is beyond me. Not to mention all the Wall Street backers that ChainLegacy pointed out.

AND HE THREW HIS BIRTH CIRTIFICATE OUT THERE. I dunno, but I really have trouble seeing the same hew and haw if he wasn't a minorty, maybe that's a bias but orignally I was much more open minded about it. My elders were totally (it's cause he's black) though.

And Ithekro's cracker jack summary basically shows why I can't get with the Republican party, they REALLY bristle at the idea of any one other than a White Protestant Man being president. I mean look at the support for Mitt Romney, repubs don't really want him, they just like "oh well best we can do". I know there are some different ones who don't care as much and it's not like it's not an issue for the Democrats either, but well, the 1960s wasnt too long ago and neither was that Solid South transformation. We didn't just become all racially kumbaya overnight.

[DonQuigleone]

I wonder if I could run for president. I'm a US citizen through my Mom, but I was born and raised in Ireland...