Harem Vs. "All Girls" Anime Debate

[darkchibi07]

Originally Posted by Tempester

Show any "all girls" anime or 90% of harems to a typical Hollywood movie producer, and their head will explode because they're used to failing the Bechdel test.

Now that would be an interesting topic to start another thread on.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Tempester

Show any "all girls" anime or 90% of harems to a typical Hollywood movie producer, and their head will explode because they're used to failing the Bechdel test.

I just like the idea of exploding hollywood movie producer/exec heads... there should be a scorched earth policy on them, their accountants, their lawyers --- send them file attachments of these scenes. We know they're incapable of not opening every attachment offered them :P

[asaqe]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

It kind of goes without saying because harem shows require a certain combination of factors to work:

1. The protagonist has to attract multiple potential mates for whatever reason (whether it's judged to be "deserved" or "not deserved" is up to the author to suggest and the viewer to decide)

2. The protagonist has to act in such a way that will perpetuate the question of "who he will choose", which gives the potential mates a reason to continue their pursuit.

3. The protagonist's presence can't overshadow that of the potential mates, because they are just as important to the audience if not more so.

4. The protagonist must not "cross the line" with any potential mate unless they are the final choice (except if this is a melodrama or a tragedy). (Where the "line" is can sometimes be one of the points.)

So based on all these factors, the protagonist basically has to be flawed in some way, and possibly in a certain specific set of ways to perpetuate the fantasy.

Still, though, when they talk about a "Yuuji Everylead", the issue isn't whether or not they're reliable when push comes to shove (even Yuuji himself doesn't remain powerless), but how bland/dull their personality otherwise is. If the protagonist just goes with the flow most of the time and, when the time comes, saves the day simply because they're the protagonist and it's back to the status quo... it's not very distinctive or memorable. The oft-quoted theory here is that these sorts of male lead characters are ostensibly easier for the target audience to relate to (because their lack of distinctiveness gives them more in common with as many people as possible), but people who don't want to see the protagonist as a "sit-in" for themselves argue that this is too "pandering" and/or plain.

I think that, regardless of the protagonist's other traits, the more the show emphasizes the protagonist's inability to make a romantic decision, the more frustrated some people will be with both the show and the protagonist. But of course, the fact the protagonist won't choose is the point because, once the protagonist chooses, the story ends. That's the genre. Anecdotally, I have in fact seen some people whose frustration with this issue inherent to the genre is what causes them to prefer the "All Girls" anime the OP is proposing, because they can see it as "all great heroines, no annoying male lead". So I guess there can be a link between the two styles of shows, even though they're otherwise also quite different.

Crossing the line won't really hurt, casual sex can been as another way to pass the time, something like having dinner or something similar. Maybe a bit of naughty bedside talk.

Damn, I really have a casual approach to sex...

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by darkchibi07

Now that would be an interesting topic to start another thread on.

Perhaps. I don't feel like it right now, but anyone is free to do it if they wish to.

Originally Posted by asaqe

Crossing the line won't really hurt, casual sex can been as another way to pass the time, something like having dinner or something similar. Maybe a bit of naughty bedside talk.

Damn, I really have a casual approach to sex...

In this case, the "line" would be somewhere beyond sex, like a love confession or marriage. It's theoretically possible to maintain a harem even after having sex with one of the heroines, and I'm almost sure that it's been done at some point. But it's not common outside of porn VNs and manga. The problem is that most harem manga and light novels have this idea that sex has to be the ultimate declaration of love, meaning that if the male MC has sex with a girl, he has irreversibly chosen her as his permanent love partner.

[kenjiharima]

As long as the story is interesting I like watching a harem or an all girls anime.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Tempester

The problem is that most harem manga and light novels have this idea that sex has to be the ultimate declaration of love, meaning that if the male MC has sex with a girl, he has irreversibly chosen her as his permanent love partner.

Well, yeah, and the reason for this is that these are mostly shounen works published in magazines sold to kids and teenagers (or anime adapted from the same). So the editorial influence, despite all the "fanservice", is that "sex is something special and should be saved for the one you love". (Very conservative values juxtaposed with all this nudity, suggestiveness, and "immorality". ) Going against this principle almost always results in a Bad End.

Anyway, venturing a bit afar from the topic, but all this to say that the properties of this particular genre seem fairly set in stone, whereas I still think "all girls anime" is a pretty vague descriptor that can cover a whole lot of different genres.

[aohige]

Gone are the days when you could filp through Weekly Shounen Jump, and see sex depicted in Cobra.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by NK_500

One thing I hate to hear about people may said about an anime where 90% of the characters are female, especially teenage girls and they quickly thought it going to be moe or ecchi "craps". How "crappy" is Taishou Yakyuu Musume for example? TYM is one of the few shows that isn't ends up as neither moe(except perhaps for Koumei though but she acts just like a normal 14-years old girl) or ecchi crap. Expect no bouncy breasts and pantyshots in that show. Despite all that it also quite obvious that the show's main target audiences are 20-something men and this can be explain with marketing alone, as it may sell better as seinen than shoujo or josei, as it lacked of romance(and most likely bishies). However in the West, outside the internet in can be considered as a failure for lacking any 'commercial values'.

Taisho Yakyuu Musume isn't moe in the sense that something like Kanon is moe. Personally though, I conceive of moe more broadly - something like a certain feminine vitality or charm possessed by a character. And those sorts of qualities are definitely present in TYM. Koume's probably the easiest to recognize as a moe character just because of her youthful enthusiasm and spirited rather than intellectual style - something I'd arguable is not only a moe archetype, but perhaps the moe archetype. Personally, my favourite was Yuki though, since manages to combine refined and youthful enthusiasm into something that's more than the sum of those two treats. And I love Noto Mamiko's voicework.

Either way it's a great show, and pretty unique among it's kind for it's period setting and plot. As for those that deride it for being an all girls show - it's possible some of them are extrapolating bad experiences with lesser all girl's shows on it or something along that line. But personally I suspect a lot of it is either a) old school anime fans high on their own sense of superiority or b) guys who consider all girls shows anime "girly" and therefore beneath them. Really, the latter is one of the few things I think can account for the visceral, non-critical nature of some of the attacks on the genre I've encountered.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by hyl

I disagree that in VN that "you" are the protagonist because the main characters tend to have their own personalities (eventhough most of them are dokan though)

You should play any of the late Kanno Hiroyuki's works, where pretty much every single protagonist he drew were complete and utter badasses. Regardless of their age.

He was one of the three big genius of the eroge market back a decade ago, along with Elf's Hiurta and Alicesoft's TADA.
These three were the cornerstones of the medium, and Kanno's work at Elf "YU-NO" is one of the best eroge novel ever made. If not THE best.

Alas, after his works in recent years were less than mediocre, and then he passed away, without even completing the detective series we never got to see the conclusion of....

Anyways, you're right that many of the leads do have strong personalities, and clearly not a simple avatar for projection of the player.
There were many mediocre eroge where they try to make the protagonist = player, but they are usually not popular enough to be made into anime anyways.

[Vexx]

Frankly, I can't project myself into most VNs either because the choices often suck. I'm sitting there saying, "what a jackass, NONE of these choices are what I'd do"

[Sheba]

I have that problem too with most of light novels, which may explain my dislike for Yuuji Everyleads, the most recent one being Narumi from Kami-sama Memochou. No wonder people mostly remember Alice because otherwise it would have been very forgetable.

[Kyero Fox]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Frankly, I can't project myself into most VNs either because the choices often suck. I'm sitting there saying, "what a jackass, NONE of these choices are what I'd do"

Hahaha same here. Its like every anime with romance like toloveru and Rosario vampire the lead never picks the girl i would. Like haseo and alkaid in hack//gu. Instead he picks the annoying wussy damsel is distress.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

b) guys who consider all girls shows anime "girly" and therefore beneath them.

Out of curiosity, do you hear this more from younger people or older ones? I'd understand the girly complaint if it was the former but for the latter all I can say is that "all girls" shows, especially male-targeted ones, are probably the least "girly" works you could watch since they play on male attraction if that makes sense. A different form of masculinity maybe?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto

Out of curiosity, do you hear this more from younger people or older ones? I'd understand the girly complaint if it was the former but for the latter all I can say is that "all girls" shows, especially male-targeted ones, are probably the least "girly" works you could watch since they play on male attraction if that makes sense. A different form of masculinity maybe?

I think the complaint that "all girls" shows are "girly" comes partly from the stereotypically-"manly" "guys shouldn't have feelings" school of thought (except for hunger, anger, will-to-kill/conquer, and steeled resolve ). To this audience, a show about a group of girls going about their "inane" lives and talking about arguably-pointless things might be considered torture (akin to a girlfriend saying "let's sit down and talk about our feelings"). I think this attitude is very old-fashioned and almost offensively stereotypical... but I can't deny that it's there to some degree. On the one hand I'd say that it sways towards younger people (who are still worried about "looking cool" in front of their friends), but I've known a lot of adults who still act this way too. So I think the appeal of these sorts of "all girls" shows may be lost on part of the audience, who are basically trained to not relate to other people on an emotional level (hence have a hard time empathizing with the characters in these sorts of shows). Many harem shows are exempted from that because they can be grounded in the male protagonist's basic nature and the way he sees the female characters in the story (which doesn't always require as much empathy with them directly).

This isn't by any means trying to make a judgement call on people who like either sort of show; I've certainly appreciated both equally. But I think it's possible that some people's personality/nature may influence the sorts of shows they're drawn to.

[Vexx]

Its something you're *supposed* to grow out of as you mature - the simplistic 'macho-man' stereotype and the underlying insecurity/fear of being caught having more complex behavior. Its mostly in young people but as relentless notes - some "men" never grow out of it. :P

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I think the complaint that "all girls" shows are "girly" comes partly from the stereotypically-"manly" "guys shouldn't have feelings" school of thought (except for hunger, anger, will-to-kill/conquer, and steeled resolve ). To this audience, a show about a group of girls going about their "inane" lives and talking about arguably-pointless things might be considered torture (akin to a girlfriend saying "let's sit down and talk about our feelings").

Oh, right. I actually take the amount of "feelings" a lot of shows have for granted since I'm less likely to watching something "manly." And anyway I thought it was equating a series male:female ratio as a measure for how girly or not something is. Content-wise, yeah, it's a different story.

I'd like to see how they'd handle Fist of the North Star. Their reaction to the amount of emotion the series has on "manliness" alone would be priceless.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto

Out of curiosity, do you hear this more from younger people or older ones? I'd understand the girly complaint if it was the former but for the latter all I can say is that "all girls" shows, especially male-targeted ones, are probably the least "girly" works you could watch since they play on male attraction if that makes sense. A different form of masculinity maybe?

It's not something I hear from people, it's something I infer from their statements.
If it is blatant - as in the person going on about the anime they watch is superior to "moeshit" because of the baddassery and gore, I tend to assume the poster is immature.

Older fans tend to be more subtle about it and I doubt many of them consciously recognize that they tend to think of "girly" shows as inferior. But the sheer vitriol directed at all girls shows in general and the lack of such directed at even really crappy action shows isn't easily explained otherwise. These guys feel threatened by the by these "girly" shows because it doesn't fit with the image they've built up over the years of how cool their hobby is.

As for whether all girl's shows are actually the least girly because they play on male attraction, I would disagree. While there are exceptions, I tend to find the girls in most such shows far more endearing than attractive - hardly the hallmark of male attraction IMO.

(Of course, there's the whole theory of how these shows appease the "fatherhood gene" in older male otaku, but I'm not sure that's what you're getting at. Especially since it's not a theory I see discussed much in the west - personally, I think it explains some characters and shows very well but only a few.)

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Older fans tend to be more subtle about it and I doubt many of them consciously recognize that they tend to think of "girly" shows as inferior. But the sheer vitriol directed at all girls shows in general and the lack of such directed at even really crappy action shows isn't easily explained otherwise. These guys feel threatened by the by these "girly" shows because it doesn't fit with the image they've built up over the years of how cool their hobby is.

As for whether all girl's shows are actually the least girly because they play on male attraction, I would disagree. While there are exceptions, I tend to find the girls in most such shows far more endearing than attractive - hardly the hallmark of male attraction IMO

(Of course, there's the whole theory of how these shows appease the "fatherhood gene" in older male otaku, but I'm not sure that's what you're getting at. Especially since it's not a theory I see discussed much in the west - personally, I think it explains some characters and shows very well but only a few.)

On the point of the quantity of criticism, I think there's some exposure factor at work. If something becomes more prominent it follows that the hate it receives would become more noticeable. The severity of the complaints remains the same but the amount of it not so much methinks.

Fair enough. I can see the distinction between endearing and attractive though I have the suspicion the dichotomy isn't a precise line.

(The fatherhood gene is definitely not the context I'm thinking of. It's less of the character being a daughter and instead takes the familial position one order higher than that.)

[Magin]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Now that's an interesting statement Lets use 2011 as a sample since it's the most recent complete year, by my count there are 24 harem shows (or shows with harem elements in them).... If I missed out one let me know, after all I don't watch everything...

Spoiler for list:

Winter 2011
----------------


Dragon Crisis! - Can fight, but is a wuss
Kore wa Zombie Desu ka? - strong
IS Infinite Stratos - strong
FREEZING - unknown (never watch)


Spring 2011
----------------

Kami nomi zo Shiru Sekai II - strong
Astarotte no Omocha! - unknown (Never watched)
Denpa Onna to Seishun Otoko - strong
DOG DAYS - strong
Hidan no Aria - strong
Seikon no Qwaser II - strong
Hoshizora e Kakaru Hashi - unknown (Never watched)
Ore-tachi ni Tsubasa wa Nai - unknown (Never watched)


Summer 2011
-------------------

Mayo Chiki! - strong but abit of both
Baka to Test to Shoukanjuu Ni! - idiot, but strong
Ro-Kyu-Bu! - nice guy?
R-15 - unknown (Never watched)



Fall 2011
-----------

Mashiro-iro Symphony - nice guy?
Persona 4 the ANIMATION - strong
Boku wa Tomodachi ga Sukunai - strong
C³ -C Cube- - strong
Ben-To - strong
Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon - strong
Maken-Ki! - unknown (Never watched)
Maji de Watashi ni Koi Shinasai!! - unknown (Never watched)

Heh... looks like I'm still mostly in 2009/2010 in terms of anime, with a few from 11

Anyways, here's my version of that list... and I'm going to add in some criteria for what qualifies as a strong male lead (keep in mind this could degenerate, since my criteria may be different from others):

First off, the ideals of leads: Tenchi, Tsukune (Rosario + Vampire manga, the anime is pure FAIL), Touma* (ToAru), Sai Akuto (Daimou)... and I'm not sure whether or not to include Ayumu (Zombie desu ka), because of the fact that he is kinda forced to crossdress...

The criteria they pretty much fit:

-Although they tend to upset their girls, they generally don't just take the infamous punishment, but actually attempt to defend themselves/fight back
-Actually respond to the girls' feelings
*Touma is the only possible exception to this- he's definitely one of the most dense leads out there, but I think Mikoto is slowly getting to him (in the novels, at least)
-If shit starts to hit the fan, they are able to hold their own in a fight and not rely on the girls... and can protect the girls if need be
-Have their power through most of the series, and actively use it... not just gain and use it near the end of the series
-Aren't overshadowed by the girls for majority of the show

... there's probably more, but these are the ones off the top of my head. Note too that most of the harem stuff that I watch has at least an action plot in there somewhere as well

So here's my list for the past several years, and note that quite of bit of recent anime is missing, because even I haven't seen every single out out there:

Spoiler for BIG list:

Spring 09
Tears to Tiara- Technically a harem, and the lead is badass, but there's very little in the way of any actual romance. Still a highly recommended show, though.

Tayutama- Again, I think it was technically a harem, but between it being mostly focused on a certain love triangle and comedy, the guy was mostly in training for the series and didn't shine until he end. And the way it ended... well, it confused anyione who hadn't played the VN

Summer 09
Bakemonogatari- Actually a really good series, and the only thing that keeps Araragi from being an ideal is that he doesn't tap into his vampire abilities very often (for obvious reasons). So this is one of the rare ones.

Princess Lover- a TnA fest, with slight plot kicking in at the end. Puts it on the lower tier.

Seitokai no Ichizon- a comedy/parody series more than an action-orientated series, so as awesome as Ken is, he doesn't make the list.

Fall 09
The Sacred Blacksmith- Luke is badass when he gets his moments, but 90% of the show is about Cecily, who is relatively useless with Luke around... and it didn't even have an ending. Again, low tier.

Nyan Koi- I'm just going to say it was a fun series... about mid-tier in terms of harem (I also happen to be rooting for the osananajimi in this one...)

11eyes- The guy can fight alright, but the way they did the ending... about mid-tier. Not too bad, but could've been a lot better.

Heaven's Lost Property (Sora no otoshimono)- Haven't seen, but I understand it's a TnA fest. Mid to low-tier.

Winter 09/10
Haven't seen much, only Omamori Himari. And that... was a case of the girls are powerful, and the guy only gets his power (which is really just an enhancing power) at the end. Low tier.

There are probably a couple other shows from that season that are harem, but I haven't seen them yet (such as Qwaser).

So at the end of that year for 09, only Bakemonogatari stood out.

Spring 10
Only seen Angel Beats, Daimaou and Working. And Daimaou has Sai Akuto, so see the start of my post.

Summer 10
Amagami SS- haven't seen it

Sekirei SII- haven't seen it. Probably mid-tier IMO

Asobi ni Iku yo- Currently watching, in English, with the anime club I'm part of at home. It's fun, but the power lies all with the girls (so far... haven't seen beyond ep. 5). Mid to low tier based off what I've seen so far.

Fall 10
Samurai girls- guy only gets his power at the end. Low tier.

ToAru SII- haven't seen, but it has Touma. 'Nuff said.

Sora no otoshimono SII- Haven't seen, sounds again like a TnA fest. Low tier.

OreImo- Um... honestly, I don't think it exactly counts as a harem, having seen it, despite what anyone in the OreImo thread might say. Or at least, not this first season.

Motto TLR- I'm guessing it's a TnA fest? Rito is just your average student, through and through. Maybe a bit fun, but low tier.

TWGOK- I'm not sure if this is technically a harem, since mindwipe is employed everytime. Good, but only mid to low tier.

Winter 10/11
IS- Sure, Ichika is one of the strongest characters. But he's also one of the most dense characters in all of anime history, right of there with Naruto. I enjoyed the series, but as a harem lead he fails.

Freezing- Kazuya doesn't do anything until the final episode for all intents and purposes, with the girls doing all the fighting. Fail.

Zombie desu ka- if it weren't for the fact that Ayumu has to crossdress, this was pretty epic. Still, top-tier.

Dragon Crisis- not bad, but could've been better. Mid-tier.

So from what I've seen in 10, Daimaou, ToAru and Zombie were the epic ones, and all have my ideals. IS is down on the next rung, and that's all (from what I've seen, again)

Spring 11
Have only seen TWGOK II and Dog Days. Dog Days was good; I just wish that Lo wasn't the only one with a good rack. Still top-tier.

Summer 11- have yet to see anything.

Fall 11- seen Persona 4 and Working'!!, neither of which is harem (in my book, though P4 almost fits the bill). And I can already tell you that Maken-ki is Fail, based on the manga. And Maji de watashi ni koi shinasai has the guy being brilliant (in fact, he's called the Tactician), but he's surrounded by insanely strong women who generally overshadow him.

Winter 11/12
Having only seen the first half of Moretsu Pirates, which is practically an all-girls anime, and Brave10, which is reverse harem and suffers from Asspull ending (though I'm not completely complaining)... this has the best line-up in a while, from High School DxD, to Zero no Tsukaima F (I enjoy the Zero series), and Nizemonogatari as well... I wish I had more time to see all of it

In other words, I've got a lot to see

Spring 12 (current)- Have yet to see anything, but Zombie looks like the only clear-cut harem winner, with Shining hearts also being possible harem but no idea on how it is. The other interesting titles (like Tasogare Otome, Jormungand, Houka) don't seem to be harems.

Summer 2012
So far, only my list are Dog Days II, Hagure Yuusha, Campione, and possibly Date a Live. I know Dog Days will be a winner, but no clue about anything else.

[aohige]

Those are some weak "ideal"s, IMO.
Tench annoyed the crap out of me 20 years ago, and still do now.

Ideal leads to me are like, Ataru from Urusei-Yatsura. He may not get his harem, but he'll die trying!
Or Captain Ohgami from Sakura Taisen games. Get dozens to fall in love wih you. Kill a monster in bare, walk out of explosion like nothing.
How about Banjo Haran from Daitarn 3? Bad-ass, rich, ladies man, and did I mention bad-ass? I mean, the dude's NAME basically means badassery.

All these sackless spineless twats in harem anime can go die in a pit of fire.