Code Geass R2 - Overall Series Impressions & Total Series Rating

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

I always saw that conversation as Lelouch never liking to use geass to force complete servitude due to both disgust with that thought, and pride. It shows that Lelouch has been through hell when he does start doing that.

Then, quite frankly, you're just not paying attention or deliberately interpreting it in a way that will allow you to make Lelouch out as more of a monster than he is. It was because he was a friend and because of pride, not because of some stigma about bending free will. Obviously people don't want to kill themselves, yet he does that quite often.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

If Lelouch had no problems with forcing people into complete servitude why didn't he do that with more people. Instead of forcing Dalton to attack Cornelia once, and then Lelouch killing him, Lelouch instead forces Dalton into complete servitude, and be one of his generals. Dalton is a whole lot more useful than most of Lelouch's men.

Aside from the fact that loyalty from nowhere does not go without questions, just take Guilford and Jeremiah as examples, it is infinitely more useful to have a latent command activate on schedule rather than a dominating one which alters behavior. In the case of the Britannians in episode 20, he simply needed them to obey to the fullest extent in a situation where they certainly would not do so of their own accord. You're ignoring context.

[bladeofdarkness]

but he never ever used it like he did after the events of ep 20
and when he did it then it was becouse he knew (or at least inteneded) that to be his last action
becouse at that point he had nothing left
nunnaly was dead
sherly was dead
rolo was dead
C.C was gone (might as well be dead)
kallen was with the black knights (no chance of ever getting in touch with her again,not without putting her in danger)
the black knights have turned on him (and potential allies like kaguya and xing-ke now had a nice video tape of him saying that he was using the OOBK as pawns all along, to go along with shnizel's evidence)
his ID was exposed which ment the end of his life both as zero AND as lelouch lamperuge (so no ashford life or friends)
suzaku had betrayed him (or so he believed)
and he would spend the rest of his (in all likelihood, short) life being hunted down by both britannia and the black knights
so at that point all he had left was revenge (which is a good motivator to drop any ethics one might have)

at that point he went all the way to the dark side and turned from anti-hero
to an all out villain (who happened to have good intentions)
and given what he had lost it was a rather reasonable that it would happen

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

I always saw that conversation as Lelouch never liking to use geass to force complete servitude due to both disgust with that thought, and pride.

I agree, but I also think that Suzaku is a special case.
Lelouch even said something along the lines of: "You were the only one I never wanted to use it on."
Because the only person whose free will is more important to Lelouch than Suzaku's is Nunally.

It shows that Lelouch has been through hell when he does start doing that.

*nods her head*
And that he has come to his final conclusion.

Lelouch was just too good for this world.
Doing to people what he did went against his very nature, but he often didn't even realize it.
People can think about him whatever they like, but in my opinion, what he did wasn't a crime and it certainly didn't make him a monster.
I can see why one would say that about Clovis - because Clovis truly lost his way and just stopped caring -, but I'll never be able to see something unkind in Lelouch.
I could pity him, worship him, hug him... but I'll never agree that he wasn't an amazing person who was... well, too good for this world.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Then, quite frankly, you're just not paying attention or deliberately interpreting it in a way that will allow you to make Lelouch out as more of a monster than he is. It was because he was a friend and because of pride, not because of some stigma about bending free will. Obviously people don't want to kill themselves, yet he does that quite often.

Aside from the fact that loyalty from nowhere does not go without questions, just take Guilford and Jeremiah as examples, it is infinitely more useful to have a latent command activate on schedule rather than a dominating one which alters behavior. In the case of the Britannians in episode 20, he simply needed them to obey to the fullest extent in a situation where they certainly would not do so of their own accord. You're ignoring context.

If Lelouch has no such reservation against taking away free will than that makes him a complete monster a man who has no reservation, and only cares about those close to him.

If Lelouch is really like that than that changes my view of him completely, his worse than Light in that case, Light may kill you, but Lelouch would wipe your mind, and turn you into nothing more than a puppet. What Lelouch did to those soldiers was a fate worse than death, at least with death you go to the world of C.

[morbosfist]

Every time he uses his Geass it takes free will. People just usually get it back, unless of course they're killing themselves. Yes, he goes all out once he loses the Black Knights, but he didn't have time to waste with the niceties at that point, and he was dealing with people he simply couldn't win the trust of. And if we're going to do Light comparisons then Light can not only kill you, but use you like a puppet before that as well. The soldiers Lelouch controlled can't be slaves to a dead man. They obeyed Jeremiah once he died. They're free for all intents and purposes.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Every time he uses his Geass it takes free will. People just usually get it back, unless of course they're killing themselves. Yes, he goes all out once he loses the Black Knights, but he didn't have time to waste with the niceties at that point, and he was dealing with people he simply couldn't win the trust of. And if we're going to do Light comparisons then Light can not only kill you, but use you like a puppet before that as well. The soldiers Lelouch controlled can't be slaves to a dead man. They obeyed Jeremiah once he died. They're free for all intents and purposes.

Which would be great if we saw that, but I am not about to make up for the failures of the writer and director to wrap up the plot by saying that clearly Jeremiah ungeassed them, or they somehow have free will since Lelouch is dead.

For all we know they could go 47 Ronin on Suzaku and kill him.

[bladeofdarkness]

since the public doesnt know about the geass then those soldiers who followed him are like the SS
"just following orders" doesnt cut it anymore
those few people who supported him without being geassed (jeremia suzaku and C.C) are likely to be viewed as traitors and hunted down
sayoko Lloyd cecile and nina surrendered under the claim that they had been threatend so they are off the hook
but they only did that becouse of the OOBK sinking the avalon (the original plan was to attack the damocles using the avalon)
if everything had gone according to plan they would also be marked as traitors
everyone Lelouch involved in ZERO-R he involved knowing that it would mean their end (luck saved the above mentioned four from it)
i doubt he cared about the faceless mooks he inslaved

[Charred Knight]

I always saw it as Lelouch seeing them as a necessary casualty to his plans. I don't understand how anyone could watch Code Geass and get that Lelouch was some kind saint of a man who was frankly to good for this sinful Earth when he was a heavily flawed man who did horrible things, felt bad about it, and died to atone for his actions.

I highly doubt that Taniguchi and Okouchi are somehow dense enough to honestly try to compare Lelouch with Jesus Christ.

[Witacume]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

I always saw it as Lelouch seeing them as a necessary casualty to his plans. I don't understand how anyone could watch Code Geass and get that Lelouch was some kind saint of a man who was frankly to good for this sinful Earth when he was a heavily flawed man who did horrible things, felt bad about it, and died to atone for his actions.

I highly doubt that Taniguchi and Okouchi are somehow dense enough to honestly try to compare Lelouch with Jesus Christ.

Well people who compare LElouch to Jesus are very flawed.
But i don't think anyone has though seriously.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Which would be great if we saw that, but I am not about to make up for the failures of the writer and director to wrap up the plot by saying that clearly Jeremiah ungeassed them, or they somehow have free will since Lelouch is dead.

For all we know they could go 47 Ronin on Suzaku and kill him.

They are not failures simply because you see them as such, it's just you trying to make it look like he's inflicting more suffering than he actually is. Also, if they were going to go ronin on Suzaku, that huge time gap would have seen him dead by this point. Either they don't care, are dead, or were degeassed. Either way, they're not a problem.

[Knight Of Zero]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

since the public doesnt know about the geass then those soldiers who followed him are like the SS
"just following orders" doesnt cut it anymore
those few people who supported him without being geassed (jeremia suzaku and C.C) are likely to be viewed as traitors and hunted down
sayoko Lloyd cecile and nina surrendered under the claim that they had been threatend so they are off the hook
but they only did that becouse of the OOBK sinking the avalon (the original plan was to attack the damocles using the avalon)
if everything had gone according to plan they would also be marked as traitors
everyone Lelouch involved in ZERO-R he involved knowing that it would mean their end (luck saved the above mentioned four from it)
i doubt he cared about the faceless mooks he inslaved

What makes u think that he going to use Avalon to attack damocles don't forget about the invincible sheild it has ,how do u suppose avalon to get through that?
I think there would be a plan for those who help him to not mark be mark as traitors and that avalon sinking was just PLAN-B.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Knight Of Zero

What makes u think that he going to use Avalon to attack damocles don't forget about the invincible sheild it has ,how do u suppose avalon to get through that?
I think there would be a plan for those who help him to not mark be mark as traitors and that avalon sinking was just PLAN-B.

he said it himself that they would charge the damocles with the avalon in ep 24
including the UFN heads who were on it
after xing-ke took out the float system he told them to take part in operation something or other (cant remember the name)
thats when they "betrayed him"

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

I always saw it as Lelouch seeing them as a necessary casualty to his plans. I don't understand how anyone could watch Code Geass and get that Lelouch was some kind saint of a man who was frankly to good for this sinful Earth when he was a heavily flawed man who did horrible things, felt bad about it, and died to atone for his actions.

Well, he was too good for this world.
And sadly, it shows.
When he was a child, all Lelouch would have needed to be happy were his mother and sister. But then he had to find Marianne "dead" in a nice little pool of blood, and from there on, the only happiness he had left - his sister - was in constant danger.
Not only was she crippled, he also had to fear that she would be discarded as a tool that had outlived its usefulness. So he stood up to his father, who just abondened them both and left them in an enemy country.
There he found a friend and new happiness, but at the same time, he and his sister were still political tools.
Even the Ashfords didn't just take them in out of kindness.
He saw the cruelty of the world and without the Geass, alls his attempts to change anything would probably have been in vain.
Therefore, he became distrustful, bitter and incredibly protective of those he cared about. He was so kind that he ended up killing his own heart in order to accomplish his goals.
He had some serious psychological issues, but if there had been some people to give him a push in the right direction from the start, he would have eventually gotten over them and never strayed too far from his path.

He still managed to cope somehow, but I think he's been a very tragic character from the very start.
And most people in his postion would have ended up much, much worse.
Like Charles, who became a total psycho, or Clovis, who was a very kind person once, but became indifferent to everything after he first lost two of his siblings and then realized that he would never be able to change anything the way he wanted to.

I highly doubt that Taniguchi and Okouchi are somehow dense enough to honestly try to compare Lelouch with Jesus Christ.

Comparing them is fun, but I wouldn't do it if I wasn't joking.
After all, it's Lelouch I'm interested in, not Jesus.
Are there really people who try to seriously compare them? o.o

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

They are not failures simply because you see them as such, it's just you trying to make it look like he's inflicting more suffering than he actually is. Also, if they were going to go ronin on Suzaku, that huge time gap would have seen him dead by this point. Either they don't care, are dead, or were degeassed. Either way, they're not a problem.

I consider it a failure since I felt Code Geass did a horrible job of wrapping things up, they just threw out that Ougi had somehow become Prime Minister, and somehow I am supposed to believe that Suzaku can become a leader when at not point does Suzaku ever show any leadership ability, and in fact he mostly comes off as a stereotypical idiot hero. At least they didn't show Kallen become some world leader. This is more because Code Geass probably worked best as an ensamble cast anime, but they only really focused on four characters (Lelouch, Suzaku, Kallen, and C.C)

It's still better than the Harry Potter ending, where we have to find out what happened to everyone in interviews.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Well, he was too good for this world.
And sadly, it shows.
When he was a child, all Lelouch would have needed to be happy were his mother and sister. But then he had to find Marianne "dead" in a nice little pool of blood, and from there on, the only happiness he had left - his sister - was in constant danger.
Not only was she crippled, he also had to fear that she would be discarded as a tool that had outlived its usefulness. So he stood up to his father, who just abondened them both and left them in an enemy country.
There he found a friend and new happiness, but at the same time, he and his sister were still political tools.
Even the Ashfords didn't just take them in out of kindness.
He saw the cruelty of the world and without the Geass, alls his attempts to change anything would probably have been in vain.
Therefore, he became distrustful, bitter and incredibly protective of those he cared about. He was so kind that he ended up killing his own heart in order to accomplish his goals.
He had some serious psychological issues, but if there had been some people to give him a push in the right direction from the start, he would have eventually gotten over them and never strayed too far from his path.

He still managed to cope somehow, but I think he's been a very tragic character from the very start.
And most people in his postion would have ended up much, much worse.
Like Charles, who became a total psycho, or Clovis, who was a very kind person once, but became indifferent to everything after he first lost two of his siblings and then realized that he would never be able to change anything the way he wanted to.



Comparing them is fun, but I wouldn't do it if I wasn't joking.
After all, it's Lelouch I'm interested in, not Jesus.
Are there really people who try to seriously compare them? o.o

Lelouch was a tragic character I will give you that, and I have seen him compared to Greek Tragic characters, but he still did horrible things. He may not have been Charles, and Clovis but that wasn't that hard. I agree with the greek hero comparison as he was supposed to be good at heart but did horrible things and paid the price.

Also I have seen him seriously compared to Jesus, especially at TVTropes.org where several people have claimed he died for the sins of the world which everyone should know is false as several people where punished especially Schneizel, and Suzaku who got a lot worse than Lelouch.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

I consider it a failure since I felt Code Geass did a horrible job of wrapping things up, they just threw out that Ougi had somehow become Prime Minister, and somehow I am supposed to believe that Suzaku can become a leader when at not point does Suzaku ever show any leadership ability, and in fact he mostly comes off as a stereotypical idiot hero. At least they didn't show Kallen become some world leader. This is more because Code Geass probably worked best as an ensamble cast anime, but they only really focused on four characters (Lelouch, Suzaku, Kallen, and C.C)

One, Suzaku is not a leader, he's a symbol and a bodyguard. Two, it's not a big surprise that Ohgi got voted into office. He's a recognizable guy once the war ends. Three, those four have always been the focus, and someone has to be. The rest are minor characters.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

One, Suzaku is not a leader, he's a symbol and a bodyguard. Two, it's not a big surprise that Ohgi got voted into office. He's a recognizable guy once the war ends. Three, those four have always been the focus.

One, the world needs leaders, and Suzaku controls Schneizel, and must be able to fill in that position of strong leadership, the world doesn't need fighters like Suzaku, and Kallen, and in that respect I felt that they did a horrible job. Gundam Wing gave us Relena, and Lady Une, Code Geass gives us Nunnaly, and Cornelia, not exactly as good.

Two, if they where going to fill that storyline they should have set it up with him starting to come in as his own leader making competent decisions, the only decision he makes was to betray Lelouch and give control of the Black Knights to Schneizel, not exactly the competent decision making I was talking about.

Three, I said that I was pointing out that I felt it would be better if they spread out the screen time, and character development more. Todoh was a gold mine of potential and all he ever got was a small romance subplot with Chiba.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

One, the world needs leaders, and Suzaku controls Schneizel, and must be able to fill in that position of strong leadership, the world doesn't need fighters like Suzaku, and Kallen, and in that respect I felt that they did a horrible job. Gundam Wing gave us Relena, and Lady Une, Code Geass gives us Nunnaly, and Cornelia, not exactly as good.

The word needs leaders, but Suzaku isn't a leader. Pay attention. He's a bodyguard for Nunnally. Schneizel is there to make up for the fact that he has the strategic aptitude of a rock.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Two, if they where going to fill that storyline they should have set it up with him starting to come in as his own leader making competent decisions, the only decision he makes was to betray Lelouch and give control of the Black Knights to Schneizel, not exactly the competent decision making I was talking about.

First, he didn't "give" Schneizel anything. In fact, it was Li who allowed him to command the Knights in that one encounter. Second, that's why there's a huge time gap. He may not be the best leader, but leading an army is different from being a bureaucrat.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Three, I said that I was pointing out that I felt it would be better if they spread out the screen time, and character development more. Todoh was a gold mine of potential and all he ever got was a small romance subplot with Chiba.

Then you'd be complaining about the main characters not getting enough focus. You can't please everyone.

[Rising Dragon]

Um, morbofist? Charred just got done saying that Suzaku isn't fit for leadership, when he said "the world doesn't need fighters like Suzaku". Telling him Suzaku isn't a leader is kind of redundant here.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Um, morbofist? Charred just got done saying that Suzaku isn't fit for leadership, when he said "the world doesn't need fighters like Suzaku". Telling him Suzaku isn't a leader is kind of redundant here.

"Suzaku controls Schneizel, and must be able to fill in that position of strong leadership." This I took to mean that he expects him to, but if not my mistake.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

"Suzaku controls Schneizel, and must be able to fill in that position of strong leadership." This I took to mean that he expects him to, but if not my mistake.

The problem is that giving Suzaku control of Schneizel is like giving a man with no legs a porsche. I just think of Suzaku staring at Schneizel wondering how to work the damn thing, giving up, and then using Schneizel to find where Schneizel keeps his pot.

One of my main problems with the ending is that out of the people mentioned that are safe guarding Lelouch's new world only Nunnaly has any real brains. Cornelia, Todoh, and Li are generals, and not very good ones at that, Suzaku, and Kallen are strictly soldiers as both are idiots, and Nunnaly isn't even out of high school.

That's what I meant when I said the world needs leaders, the problem is that what the world has is a bunch of fighters, since the leader just killed himself.

I can understand why they did it, you can't exactly have Lelouch get away scott free, but you also can't have anyone be really competent or else it would be unrealistic to have the black knights follow a super mysterious recluse that during the most important mission abandoned them.