Macross Delta - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Thess

No, I'm sure I'm comparing them right. Windermerians are aliens. You can't shove your human standards and morals on them without coming across as condescending when they think Earthlings' ideas are worth less than the dirt under their foot. Their short lives obviously have some psychological impact about how they perceive living in general and how they act. That's inherently cultural on them.

Protodevlin aren't more "true aliens" than Windermerians. Windermerians are more humanized, but they are still freaking aliens with a different moral code and system.

In episode 8 prologue of Macros Frontier it is believed that Humanity (Jinri) was created by the Protoculture in hopes of peace and culture.

In the Voldor infiltration episode prologue goes on Humanity existing on various worlds due to Protoculture.

What was the revelation in SDF Macross? Zentradi are Humans and the Protoculture is Humanity's ancestors/progenitors.

Across light years we aren't that different. Note they don't call those from Earth Humans they cal them Earthers/Earthlings/Terrans.

It was a psychological weapon that relied on cultural shock to work and create confusion in the enemy to make more effective your attack. Have also some join you.

As stated by Tak only a minority joined. Those that escaped is because the protocol for the main fleet commander killed is for the fleet to disperse. It was a distraction as for most Zentradi it lacked context. Most of them has never looked and heard a girl much less her smooching a guy.

You forget what they did before they were sealed and how their actions still affected the galaxy, right with the Supervision's Army.

What part they are energy being aliens do you not get? The Supervision Army is now just a mop up operation for the Zentradi Army, going after stranglers.

Here's your problem to assume your morals are the ones that an alien species should take up. Morals don't exist inherently, they are construction by historical circumstances and contractual relationships of each society. Your human morals don't apply to Windermerians. You can only appeal to individual ethics, but to speak of general and universal morals to some alien society isn't only hilarious, IMO, but also is stuck in the XVII century with Kant, which has already been criticized and regarded as outdated. Freyja behaves in a different way because her feelings are appealed, not a sense of "morality." Windermerians simply don't regard Earthlings as people as they are, like humans wouldn't have regarded Zentraedi when they started fighting them. And I fully believe that they would have relied on var had they possessed it and were outnumbered to achieve their goals. This doesn't make them "evil", though.

Do I find their actions 'wrong'? Well sure, but I don't necessary think it's evil.

I believe Macross is built and inspired partly by Rorty's sense of morality and benevolence. In the sense that only when two groups recognize and acknowledge each other as people, the conflict and empathy begins. Music is a bridge to that purpose. Windermerians aren't acknowledging humans as people as them just like the Vajra didn't. It's the same thing, IMO. Hits closer home because they are more humanized, but still has the same set up, IMO. It's all about your feelings rather than some rational sense of morality. That's why the game changer is a song.

See above they are human. Pretty much human in motivation. Which is why what we are seeing is irredeemable.

We've seen this before our history. Shoji Kawamori not really being subtle about his politics is showing who Windermere represents much like Tomino did with Zeon.

[Kazu-kun]

I'm with Thess on this. Macross isn't Gundam, and morality has never been the point. It's about feelings, and that's why singing has always been so important.

Say what you want about Windermiere, but this connection between Heinz and Walkure may become a bridge for mutual understanding.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

As for the Windermerians.... oh look, it's a nice, big ancient battleship ripe for a well-placed and deserved MACROSS CANNON TO THE FACE

Ancient? Or less than 40 years old?

- Tak

[Triple_R]

To those defending the Windermereans, I have a quote for you.

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime

If you really want to stand up for the moral differences of different species, then that means that each species needs to be free to make their own moral choices. Which in practical terms means "your rights end where mine begins". This obviously runs contrary to mentally enslaving 8 billion sentient beings.

[sikvod00]

I mean, it's not even up to Hayate to decide that they don't need a replacement...please don't listen to him...

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

To those defending the Windermereans, I have a quote for you.

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime.

Been saying that since the beginning too. The Wind can scream as much as they like in regards to their self-proclaimed supremacist ideals. But when they exert that ideal upon others with force, its a different story.

- Tak

[Darthtabby]

Thess, while I agree that one probably can't understand the Windermereans without some acknowledgement of their perspective being different from that of humans, I think you've been doing a generally terrible job of advocating for them.

Roid seems to be the only one who is really into this "it is our destiny to rule" thing. Other Windermereans like Bogue and King Gramia seem to view themselves as liberators. So I doubt they plan to make everyone in the cluster permanently mind controled slaves. Perhaps they figure that if they keep everyone out of the way with mind control while they evict NUNS, then they'll just accept the status quo when they're released afterwards (hey, people who believe in causes IRL believe some pretty stupid things too ).

Edit: This is also assuming the interpretation that their plan is to mind control the entire population of the cluster is even correct. IIRC those apples don't really have so much effect without the special water to go with them.

I also don't remember anything about genociding humans, its more about evicting the NUG from the sector. (Which is sort of understandable for people who think the NUG WMDed them.) Granted, history has had a tendency for forced relocation to morph into genocide rather easily, but thing haven't gotten to that point in this series.

I'm sure some people think I'm an apologist. Maybe I am. But I personally find the anti-Windermere crowd to have a very strong case of confirmation bias. The condemnation's been around since episode one, and it seems like people are inclined towards the worst possible interpretation of every new piece of information. (Like assuming that the Wind wiped out the population of Alfheim when there's pretty much no indication they were involved in that particular incident.)

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I'm with Thess on this. Macross isn't Gundam, and morality has never been the point. It's about feelings, and that's why singing has always been so important.

Say what you want about Windermiere, but this connection between Heinz and Walkure may become a bridge for mutual understanding.

Seriously. I'm actually kind of boggling over how adamant some people are on treating this as if it was a serious war drama instead of, you know, Macross.

(At this point I'm not sure if I'll be stoned or reported for Roid being one of my favorite characters... Clearly this is proof that I wanted Hitler to win WWII or something.)

[Triple_R]

Aside from the musical elements, and certain plot conveniences, this certainly feels like a serious war drama to me. This episode treated Messer's death with considerable reverence and seriousness. The Windermere King's speech isn't far off Gihren Zabi's famous speech in the original Mobile Suit Gundam. A lot of what I've seen in Delta so far also reminds me of serious war narratives in various Star Trek shows and movies.

If some people are fans of the Windermere characters, fine. They do have excellent character designs and some good dialogue. Part of me would in fact like to agree with Thess, as many of the basic "world-building" ideas behind Windermere and its people are in fact pretty cool ("wind" being a big part of their sense of culture and self, the colorful runes as part of their hair and having a seemingly sexual aspect to it).

But Windermere just keeps ratcheting it up with almost every passing episode. And all we've been given for reasons to sympathize with them are their own words and assessments of things. If ever "show, don't tell" applied to making characters more sympathetic...

Originally Posted by Tak

Been saying that since the beginning too. The Wind can scream as much as they like in regarda to their self-proclaimed supremacist ideals. But when they exert that ideal upon others with force, its a different story.

- Tak

Agreed.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Seriously. I'm actually kind of boggling over how adamant some people are on treating this as if it was a serious war drama instead of, you know, Macross.

I dunno, the only Macross I couldn't take seriously was 7. Zero was bittersweet, and PLUS was downright dark.

- Tak

[magnuskn]

@Thess: Freyja disproves your entire point about the Windermerans having a different. No, you can't just dismiss her as an outlier, since you have no point of reference to other Windermeran civilians (who in the very short interludes we've seen them even talk seemed pretty normal, too).

@kuromitsu: Preventive proclamations of victimhood are a bad discussion strategy. Choose a better one. Also, if you don't want to treat Macross Delta as a serious show, then why are you even having this discussion with us, who want to do so?

@Darthtabby: You fall into the trap of making assumptions about how the Windbags will treat their mindslaves in the future. On the basis of what are you doing that? Their vast sense of honor, which already has permitted them to make terror attacks for the last months in the entire sector?

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

To those defending the Windermereans, I have a quote for you.

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime

If you really want to stand up for the moral differences of different species, then that means that each species needs to be free to make their own moral choices. Which in practical terms means "your rights end where mine begins". This obviously runs contrary to mentally enslaving 8 billion sentient beings.

You know that those thoughts are based on Kantian ideas which work for other 'hard' shows who try to shove those moral fundamentalists as a sure thing (like Gundam or kids' shows like Transformers) but it was never a focus on Macross as far as we've seen where the difference isn't brought by some moral and higher than thou peace princess or peace mecha fighter speech, but actually brought and taught people they are the same through their feelings. Like Hume, not Kant, stated.

I'm not saying that's bad, or I don't disagree, but it's just a school of thought that has never reflected Macross in general. I don't see how Kawamori will start doing it now either unless he had a change of heart.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I'm with Thess on this. Macross isn't Gundam, and morality has never been the point. It's about feelings, and that's why singing has always been so important.

Say what you want about Windermiere, but this connection between Heinz and Walkure may become a bridge for mutual understanding.

I'm ready for the whining to begin like happened with the Vajra.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

In episode 8 prologue of Macros Frontier it is believed that Humanity (Jinri) was created by the Protoculture in hopes of peace and culture.

In the Voldor infiltration episode prologue goes on Humanity existing on various worlds due to Protoculture.

What was the revelation in SDF Macross? Zentradi are Humans and the Protoculture is Humanity's ancestors/progenitors.

Across light years we aren't that different. Note they don't call those from Earth Humans they cal them Earthers/Earthlings/Terrans.

And? Their "species" isn't important and is certainly not even a good argument to start to persuade someone to respect someone else anymore. Morality in itself doesn't exist: it's an invention given by historical circumstances and your culture. It depends and relies on the context, even for own bloody countries in the course of history. Thinking some alien civilization has your same sense of morality and pretending they do is awfully etnocentric and condescending.

Windermerians do not think Earthlings as people, period. So slaughtering them isn't morally wrong to them.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

We've seen this before our history. Shoji Kawamori not really being subtle about his politics is showing who Windermere represents much like Tomino did with Zeon.

Yes, because Macross is oh so similar to Gundam, right?

Just a hint, even the arguments that are put in the show against the Windermerians actions weren't based on rationalism or sentience (which is what Kant would argue, but Kawamori has never really interested in Kant. Hell, in Aquarion, Apollonius didn't change his mind because humans are sentient which they already knew and treated them as cattle, but because he fell in love with a human: it's always about the feelings). It was based on feelings. Hayate pointing out about slaving minds (how would those people feel and not about if it's morality wrong) and Freyja pointing out about the feelings of farmers who got their apples employed in war, not about the right of being told the uses of the apples and given the freedom to choose. Again the counter wasn't even rational, it was again based on feelings: their resentment and Cassim's loss of his own apple orchard during war.

Macross is heavily based on feelings while Gundam is heavily based on those fundamental ideas of "justice" and "freedom" and what is right and wrong which are established by Kant or Plato. However, Macross has always been awfully postmodernism.

Note I'm not saying I like what Windermerians are doing or think all of them will survive (obviously not), but I don't think they are being portrayed as moustache twirling evil villains and that the idea to shove some kind of universal idea of morality in Macross never worked. They will have to learn to open those hearts and become more empathetic to the suffering of others: Heinz has started by witnessing what Freyja did. It's appealing to his feelings, not some kind of rationality, yeah? Food for thought.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

@Thess: Freyja disproves your entire point about the Windermerans having a different. No, you can't just dismiss her as an outlier, since you have no point of reference to other Windermeran civilians (who in the very short interludes we've seen them even talk seemed pretty normal, too).

What point exactly she disapproves? Her personal ethics were appealed based on her feelings. She's not helping people "because it's right", but because of her personal desire to help them. It's all about her sensibilization and because she never felt personally pressured as she doesn't think about the future (but Keith does, for example). It's all subjective. Not something you can put as a blanket statement and try to use Kant when Freyja is extremely emotional in a good way. I certainly see her as an example of how a more kinder, open Windermerian person can be, but the way Aerial Knights act remind me to Rorty's speech about those destitute of safety and sympathy which aren't lacking in anything rational necessary, except they aren't the right circumstances that would make they sympathize with others more. Freyja's experiences are Freyja's experiences. One in a million because she had contact with external world. But how many of them do you see with mp3 given by someone else?

[dmaxzero]

Originally Posted by Tak

I dunno, the only Macross I couldn't take seriously was 7. Zero was bittersweet, and PLUS was downright dark.

- Tak

You mean perfect.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by dmaxzero

You mean perfect.

Perfect Dark?

- Tak (look ma, a pun!)

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

@kuromitsu: Preventive proclamations of victimhood are a bad discussion strategy. Choose a better one.

Aw man, sorry. That was a joke, sorry for not making it even more obvious...

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Also, if you don't want to treat Macross Delta as a serious show, then why are you even having this discussion with us, who want to do so?

Excellent question! Actually, given that I love this franchise and all, I thought it would be fun discussing this fun show with people who also enjoy it. I was also under the impression that there were many different individuals participating in these threads, and not everyone was treating the show as if it was LoGH with idols (<- I'd watch that). But if the Serious Macross Police is going to be patrolling here for the remaining ~13-14 episodes...

[Thess]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

But if the Serious Macross Police is going to be patrolling here for the remaining ~13-14 episodes...

Macross is best enjoyed with the heart, I think. It resonates deeply because it understands this. And honestly, it gets fairly ridiculous sometimes and I love that.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Thess

And? Their "species" isn't important and is certainly not even a good argument to start to persuade someone to respect someone else anymore. Morality in itself doesn't exist: it's an invention given by historical circumstances and your culture. It depends and relies on the context, even for own bloody countries in the course of history. Thinking some alien civilization has your same sense of morality and pretending they do is awfully etnocentric and condescending.

Windermerians do not think Earthlings as people, period. So slaughtering them isn't morally wrong to them.

Freyja went WTF are you guys doing to the Aerial Knights. Windermereans has pretty much the same morality. Difference is Aerial Knights are emulating Imperial Japanese in their values. They are not different Earthers else there wouldn't have been a peaceful first contact. What happened to Windermere is pretty much Gramia's fault creating a cult of personality and cult ideology.

Yes, because Macross is oh so similar to Gundam, right?

Oh please you are just playing stupid.

Shoji Kawamori isn't above tackling social issues in Macross. Whether environmental issues or loss of tribal cultures. Here is making Windermere a reflection of Imperial Japan. Significant today as nationalists are portraying as if Japan did not do anything wrong at all in WWII and is pushing the limits of its constitution with JSDF. He isn't exactly subtle in his stance on the whaling industry.

Tomino who was a student protester generation that had his work reflect his anti-militarism politics.

Shoji Kawamori isn't being subtle with this StarWind Sector being a Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity. Asia for Asians with the other races but really they dominate them to the point of destroying their culture replacing it with theirs.

[Triple_R]

@Thess and Kazu-kun

Your arguments make it sound like there's a bright bold line cleanly separating "morality" from "feelings". For many people, perhaps most people, our morality is impacted by feelings, such as feelings of empathy.

In any event, my criticism of Windermere was largely academic, and not all that strongly felt... until I saw a very compelling example of the harm being caused by Windermere on that cat-people world. Seeing those two children cry and sing out to their Var-infected father was heart-wrenching, and it caused me to feel resentment towards the people causing this for some vague lofty ideals (which may or may not be just dressing up petty revenge).

The Windermere side are the ones that don't seem to have any respect whatsoever for the feelings of people on the other side. And that lack of basic respect for the feelings of others is what I find morally upsetting. Particularly since I just don't see where Windermere is hurting badly, and are in any way justified in what they're doing. Heck, Freyja didn't even fully understand what war is, and she sparkles with an amazing innocence. She doesn't at all seem like someone from an oppressed planet.

I'm aware of Immanuel Kant and his Categorical Imperative, but I'd rather avoid the weeds of a lengthy philosophical debate. Besides, I think human morality is in fact shaped by feelings much more than it is by the reasoning of any philosopher.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Aw man, sorry. That was a joke, sorry for not making it even more obvious...


Excellent question! Actually, given that I love this franchise and all, I thought it would be fun discussing this fun show with people who also enjoy it. I was also under the impression that there were many different individuals participating in these threads, and not everyone was treating the show as if it was LoGH with idols (<- I'd watch that). But if the Serious Macross Police is going to be patrolling here for the remaining ~13-14 episodes...

Nooooooooo! Don't go anywhere, I enjoy reading your comments.

I had planned on trying to watch some of the previous Macross shows but just didn't get around to it, so Delta is my first real foray into the franchise, and I'm enjoying it so far. Personally, I'm interested in finding out what Roid meant with his time comment. (I also like him as a character, so will just weather those stones together.) Does Keith know about what Roid may be referring to, but sees things differently, and thus taking a different course of action. Or is he completely in the dark, and Roid is plotting something.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Freyja went WTF are you guys doing to the Aerial Knights. Windermereans has pretty much the same morality. Difference is Aerial Knights are emulating Imperial Japanese in their values. They are not different Earthers else there wouldn't have been a peaceful first contact. What happened to Windermere is pretty much Gramia's fault creating a cult of personality and cult ideology.

Have you ever read Richard Rorty? Our discussion is giving me a headache because you obviously clearly have no grasp of postmodern concept of morality from the liberal irony view.

I explained plenty of times Freyja personal ethics, affected by her feelings, are obviously different because she has contact with these people and started to consider them people because she's compromised by her feelings: A contact that started positively since her childhood. But to Keith and the rest, they are not people (or good people) because they aren't in their group of reference or have positive feelings to them. Morality is built by your circumstances, you cannot overlap Keith with Freyja. Period (from this line POV). Hell, just to show as example why this show isn't Kantian or tries to preach hollow rhetoric about abstract concepts, look at the character's actions: when Freyja stops Hayate from shooting Kitty daddy, does she argue "no Hayate, it's morally wrong to shoot a mind controlled person?" Nope, what influences Hayate is that guy isn't a mindless nameless mook but "The father of those kids", which hits right there on his feelings and persuades him strongly to reconsider. That's why I discourage the attempt to shove some kind of empty concept of universal moral obligation based on sentience which comes from freakin' Kant when the show is clearly so far applying the ideas inspired by the guy who criticizes and calls Kant obsolete.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Oh please you are just playing stupid.

Shoji Kawamori isn't above tackling social issues in Macross. Whether environmental issues or loss of tribal cultures. Here is making Windermere a reflection of Imperial Japan. Significant today as nationalists are portraying as if Japan did not do anything wrong at all in WWII and is pushing the limits of its constitution with JSDF. He isn't exactly subtle in his stance on the whaling industry.

And? Name a series Kawamori has made that prop up Kant. I'll be waiting. By the way, you can take and borrow some themes and influences and present it in a different way. Stop trying to pretend he's Tomino, it's embarrassing when they couldn't be more different. I find Tomino's shows and most Gundams to be heavily on those moral fundamentalism even with peace-theme, they are explored in a complete different manner, because they have opposite philosophical views of things. Hideaki Anno is fierce vegan and an environmentalist too. Are his themes presented the same as Kawamori? No, by far.